What is “light from light”?

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Yep 😉 I’m really enjoying this conversation. I’m glad I took some time to ask some questions. Post 38 was helpful.
 
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It is a very good topic. By the way, I meant to say that I agree with you about the beauty of the phrase “light from light”. I also agree that there is something beautiful and appealing about the image of Christ ascending into heaven to be “united” with the Father.
 
Am I right to say the Eucharist, even the church would be unnecessary and absent through the lense of modalism?
 
Daisy said:
Am I right to say the Eucharist, even the church would be unnecessary and absent through the lense of modalism?
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I’ll defer to @wesrock on that.

To my mind it would because it would call into question Christ’s infinitely perfect sacrifice at Calvary.
 
Actually, since modalism is illogical, it’s a nonsense question, so never mind. 😉
 
Wesrock said:
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StashLazarus:
Modalism says that there is one God who appears in different forms. That’s not what I’m saying.
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So there is God the Father who transcends time and space, there is God the Holy Spirit which is God within time and space, and there is God the Son who came from oneness with God into time and space
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That’s modalism

And God is Trinity regardless of whether he creates or not. Had God never created anything, never created time or space, he would still be Triune.
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Two different definitions of forever:
  1. Eternity than transcends time and space
  2. Eternity that exists from the beginning of time, space and matter until the end of time, space and matter
The Church says that the Trinity exists in both 1 and 2

I say the Trinity exists in 2, but not in 1

I believe in the same Trinity that the Church teaches, but I believe the Trinity exists in 2, but not in 1.

In 1 (eternity that transcends time and space) I believe there is only God the Father and that is why the Bible says there is only one God.

But I do believe in the same Trinity as the Church, so it is not modalism.
 
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StashLazarus said:
In 1 (eternity that transcends time and space) I believe there is only God the Father and that is why the Bible says there is only one God.

But I do believe in the same Trinity as the Church, so it is modalism.
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I assume you meant to say it’s “not” modalism, but whatever you choose to call it, modalism is what you’re describing. And given that you do not confess God as inherently Triune regardless of creation, you are by definition not confessing the same Trinity the Church does.
 
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This is brand new heresy.

Doesn’t it seem odd that it took 2 thousand years for someone to come up with this?
 
spockrates said:
So, I’m not a LDS, but I have spent a good deal of time speaking with them in an attempt to understand what and why they believe. What I found is there are different sects or denominations in the LDS Church, with different beliefs.
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The “LDS Church” is formally named “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. It is a single denomination, not an umbrella organization under which there are several denominations or sects.
spockrates said:
It sounds as though the author’s argument goes like this:

a. Arianism existed in the first century AD
b. Mormonism began in the 19th century

Therefore,

Mormonism is not a form of Arianism
Now, I suppose some Mormons might respond by saying the author made an LE by omitting a premise:

a. Arianism existed in the first century AD
b. Mormonism began in the 19th century
c. Joseph Smith said that God revealed to him the Church had ceased to exist on the earth, and his purpose was to restore it

Therefore,

If ( c ) is true, then it’s possible that Mormonism is a form of Arianism, for the Church could have died when Arian’s followers died and then was resurrected when God spoke to Joseph Smith.
I mean, it seems the author might be assuming ( c ) isn’t true, but perhaps the rest of the quoted source actually provides evidence that ( c ) isn’t true? If that is the case, I’d be interested in hearing what evidence he gives us! At any rate, ( c ) is a premise I’ve never seen Mormons deny, in fact, I’ve seen many defend it.

🙂
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Instead of going down an “if a, then b” route, let’s look at the definition of Arianism and compare that to doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Definition of Arianism from Dictionary : ARIANISM | Catholic Culture in italics with my response in bold.

A fourth-century heresy that denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. Its author was Arius (256-336), a priest of Alexandria, who in 318 began to teach the doctrine that now bears his name. According to Arius there are not three distinct persons in God, co-eternal and equal in all things, but only one person, the Father. The Son is only a creature, made out of nothing, like all other created beings. He may be called God but only by an extension of language, as the first and greatest person chosen to be divine intermediary in the creation and redemption of the world.

The Church of Jesus Christ teaches that no one - including Jesus - is created of nothing and that we all existed eternally in some form.

See next post for more…
 
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In the Arian system, the logos or word of God is not eternal. There was a time when he did not exist. He is not a son be nature, but merely by grace and adoption. God adopted him in prevision of his merits, since he might have sinned but did not. In a word, instead of being God he is a kind of demiurge who advanced in virtue and merit and thus came to be closely associated with the Father. But his nature is not of the same substance as the Father’s.

The Church of Jesus Christ does not teach that there was a time when Jesus or any of us did not exist. The LDS Church also teaches that Jesus is a Son by nature, and that all of us are sons and daughters by nature. And the LDS Church teaches that even thought the Father and the Son are physically distinct, their divine natures are identical.

Boldly anti-Trinitarian, Arianism struck at the foundations of Christianity by reducing the Incarnation to a figure of speech. If the logos was created and not divine, God did not become man or redeem the world, and all the consequent mysteries of the faith are dissolved.

The Church of Jesus Christ teaches that Jesus was and is divine.

The First Council of Nicaea was convoked in 325 to meet the Arian crisis. Since the signature lists are defective, the exact number of prelates who attended the council is not known. However, at least two hundred twenty bishops, mostly from the East but also from Africa, Spain, Gaul, and Italy, signed the creed that affirmed the divinity of Christ and condemned Arius as a heretic. “We believe,” the formula read, “in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father; God from God, light from light, true God from true God; begotten, not created, consubstantial [Greek Homo ousion ] with the Father.” The soul of the council was St. Athanasius (296-373), Bishop of Alexandria, whose resolute character and theological insight were the main obstacle to the triumph of Arianism in the East.

The above paragraph doesn’t add any Arian belief or doctrine.

Since the fifth century, Arian churches have remained in existence in many countries, although some of them were absorbed by Islam. A principal tenet of these churches is the recognition of Christ as Messiah but denial that he is the natural Son of God.

The Church of Jesus Christ teaches that Jesus Christ is the natural Son of God.

I hope this helps…
 
Daisy said:
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gazelam:
The Nicene Creed phrase “light from light” is a confusing phrase at best and does nothing to distinguish the Father or the Son from us mere mortals.
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I find the phrase to be absolutely beautiful. I could contemplate it forever, but I need to get some work done here, haha. It is a beautiful multi-layered song in my heart. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: and I love the mystery, am attracted to the mystery.
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I’m glad you find joy in the phrase. Take care and God bless you!
 
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