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larsont7
Guest
Sadly, yes they would.
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johnnyc176
Guest
If a liberal media outlet is to be believed yes. But no matter how many ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Church, the Catholic Church doesn’t change the Truth of those teachings.
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AggieCatholic86
Guest
Being a sinner does not necessarily make someone a heretic. I can agree with what the Church teaches on chastity, that doesn’t mean I am able to practice it all the time. And it’s fairly difficult for 98% of Catholic couples to practice contraception when 98% of Catholic women aren’t pre-menopausal. Don’t need birth control if you don’t even have a period anymore.
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Mary_Ellen
Guest
Those items you mentioned ARE doctrinal issues.
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Mary_Ellen
Guest
The Roman Church doesn’t try to evade or obscure the fact that the tribunal (not council) erred in its condemnation of heliocentricity and the censure(s) of Galileo in 1616/1633. Tribunals only have juridical and disciplinary authority and are not infallible. Only the pope or an ecumenical council are personally promised the charism of teaching infallibly. In 1825 the church issued a document which apologized for the condemnation and rehabilitated Galileo and his work. St. Pope John Paul II also apologized, in 1989, for the way the Church handled the matter.So…They don’t have to agree? They just have to nod and pretend they do? That sounds…Sort of weird.
You can’t force people to believe something, we don’t have any control over a belief like that. Having sex is something you can pull back from, you can’t do anything about being educated enough to know say that Adam and Eve weren’t a literal couple.
Yeah, check out the science people. It’s not even remotely possible but knowing that is a mortal sin?..Boy, and I thought that council in the 17th century that condemned the theory that the earth orbited the sun as heresy was silly.
That said, a case can be made that the ban of Galileo’s writings was not wrong. The bishops were wrong to condemn his theories with respect to the science but not in wishing to protect a mostly uneducated peasant faithful from what appeared to be a dangerous scientific theory mixed with (and it was a package deal in the writings of Galileo) bad theology and scriptural exegesis. Its publication would have resulted in widespread disturbance due to a lack of necessary knowledge.
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larsont7
Guest
There’s a difference between being a sinner and openly disobeying Church teaching because you disagree with it. Yes, one could fall into the sin of fornication knowing it is sinful, but then repent of that sin. That’s much different than one who knowingly contracepts despite the Church teaching on the matter, and does not repent (or even believe it is wrong).Being a sinner does not necessarily make someone a heretic. I can agree with what the Church teaches on chastity, that doesn’t mean I am able to practice it all the time. And it’s fairly difficult for 98% of Catholic couples to practice contraception when 98% of Catholic women aren’t pre-menopausal. Don’t need birth control if you don’t even have a period anymore.
The same argument is used for same sex “marriage”. Well, Jesus loved everyone, and he ate with sinners, so what’s the problem with homosexuals getting married? The thing is, Jesus ate with sinners so that he could teach and convert them, not so they could wallow in their sins. Those involved in a same sex “marriage” persist in their sin with no desire to repent, as do many who contracept.
Can’t speak of the 98% statistic, though I’m guessing that they were referring to couples that have used artificial contraception at some time during their marriage, most of which include pre-menopausal years as well.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
That’s a pretty extreme scenario. “Heresy” is a word that gets thrown around a lot on CAF. We should be careful about how we use it. To me, heresy is not believing in, and promulgating the non-belief in, the Real Presence, the divine nature of Christ, the Marian dogmas, the sinfulness of abortion., etc. I just can’t slap the heresy label on a Catholic who has a problem with the Church’s beliefs on contraception, homosexuality, the ordination of women and priestly celibacy. If one did that, then most American Catholics are heretics with an express ticket to Hell.
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Tigg
Guest
The Cafeteria Catholics are in danger although most do not recognize why. All the truths of the faith are interconnected and once you reject one truth (in favor of your own opinion) it becomes quite easy to reject another. And that is the nature of heresy. (Not my own explanation but one written by the then Crdnl Ratzinger.) I used to have his teaching on this but inadvertently lost the link and my search results have failed to yield the original. If anyone has it, could you please post it. Many thanks.
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Tigg
Guest
The parts of your post which pertain to moral matters must be assented to by those professing the faith. Homosexuality is not sinful, but homosexual acts are. The teaching on the non-ordination of women was declared *infallible *by Pope JP II (now a saint.) Why throw celibacy in the mix? That is only a discipline and you are free to like it or not.
Christ did tell us the way to eternal life is narrow. Pretty frightening, I’d say and I for one, wouldn’t want to be on that bus.
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Avila123
Guest
Which council was that? It wasn’t a Catholic council.…
The Catholic council was okay with the theory, which was first put forward by a Catholic priest (Nicholas Copernicus) and it was widely circulated but not published until 1543. Pope Leo X was had no problem, so long as it was correctly presented as a theory and not an indisputable fact as there was no evidence at the time to support it. In about 1610, Galileo after studying the Copernican theory started teaching it as fact (without evidence). In February 1616, a council of theological advisers to the pope ruled that it was possibly heresy to teach as fact that the sun, rather than the Earth, was at the center of the universe, and that the Earth rotated on its axis. Galileo was not condemned, but Cardinal Robert Bellarmine was asked to convey the news to Galileo, advise him of the panel’s ruling, and order him to cease defending his theories as fact. He also asked him to avoid any further inroads into discussion of scriptural interpretation. Galileo agreed but later renegaded. In 1633, Galileo was found (by 7 cardinals) to be “vehemently suspected of heresy” in teaching as truth that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world. He was found guilty in persisting in such teaching when he had been formally warned not to do so in 1616.
Source: catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-anti-catholic%E2%80%99s-trump-card
We learn something new every day.
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NekoNecro
Guest
I do have to challenge you here Avila, I’ll have to find a reference once I get back home but Heliocentrism (The belief that the Earth Orbited around the sun) was defined as a heresy by the inquisition in 1628(? Could have been 1638, It’s been a while since I gave a presentation on this subject). That’s why until the late 1800’s any books containing theories regarding heliocentrism continued to be placed upon the index of forbidden books.Which council was that? It wasn’t a Catholic council.
The Catholic council was okay with the theory, which was first put forward by a Catholic priest (Nicholas Copernicus) and it was widely circulated but not published until 1543. Pope Leo X was had no problem, so long as it was correctly presented as a theory and not an indisputable fact as there was no evidence at the time to support it. In about 1610, Galileo after studying the Copernican theory started teaching it as fact (without evidence). In February 1616, a council of theological advisers to the pope ruled that it was possibly heresy to teach as fact that the sun, rather than the Earth, was at the center of the universe, and that the Earth rotated on its axis. Galileo was not condemned, but Cardinal Robert Bellarmine was asked to convey the news to Galileo, advise him of the panel’s ruling, and order him to cease defending his theories as fact. He also asked him to avoid any further inroads into discussion of scriptural interpretation. Galileo agreed but later renegaded. In 1633, Galileo was found (by 7 cardinals) to be “vehemently suspected of heresy” in teaching as truth that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world. He was found guilty in persisting in such teaching when he had been formally warned not to do so in 1616.
Source: catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-anti-catholic%E2%80%99s-trump-card
We learn something new every day.
I can’t open a second tab on this phone to post a link, but check any issue of the Index of Forbidden Books during that time frame and you will see it has been clearly forbidden as a Heresy.
Mark121359
Well-known member
Tigg…what a shame that the bolded above has to be pointed out on a Catholic forum. That the Church’s teachings on contraception, homosexuality, the ordination of women, etc. would be thought of by some, to not being real important to assent to in order to be a faithful Catholic is nothing short of astounding. Could you please be so kind to explain to me, how in the world have we gone so far off the rails?
You and me both. Peace to you Tigg!
Mark
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anon98328916
Guest
A cafeteria Catholic is someone who chooses to ignore certain aspects of Catholic doctrine, or to interpret established doctrine in a way which does not agree with Catholic moral teaching. In my opinion either with Jesus and His teachings or not.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
Thank goodness the Catholic Church has you and Tigg to hold it together!
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NeedsMercy
Guest
“Uniformity, rigidity – these are hard. They do not have the freedom that the Holy Spirit gives. They confuse the Gospel that Jesus preached, with their doctrine of equality. Christ never wanted His Church to be so rigid – never – and such as these, because of their attitude, do not enter the Church. They call themselves Christians, Catholics, but their attitude drives them away from the Church.”
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Mary_Ellen
Guest
NeedsMercy,
You put quotes around your reply but did not give a source. Did you “quote” your own words or would you mind sharing with us who actually said what you posted? I’m interested.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
It was the Holy Father. I assumed everyone already knew. My bad.
news.va/en/news/pope-francis-at-thursday-morning-mass-in-santa-mar
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Tigg
Guest
Your own interpretation of this contradicts the facts. No where is the pope saying that we are not to follow the Law; the 10 Commandments God gave in order that we might have life to the fullest and that which is interpreted by the Church. We deceive ourselves if we think the Holy Spirit can contradict Himself (Who, by definition is the Spirit of Truth) by affirming our own error and disobedience.
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AggieCatholic86
Guest
Nowhere in that article did it say that anyone was openly against such a Church teaching or that they disagreed with it, or that they didn’t repent. And additionally a lot people come back to the confessional with the same sin. Don’t be so naive in thinking that one confession and one instance of repentance will automatically make them turn completely away from their sins. Don’t be so quick to condemn, there are a lot of people, even you, that know what’s a sin and still commit them, even when they’re mortal
And it’s the Guttmacher institute, the polling and study arm of Planned Parenthood, and the Washington post, so I take that with a grain of salt. The study is probably based, as you say, on having ever used contraception. The article basically should have just said that 100% percent of Catholics are sinners, including sins of pride, fornication, contraception, adultery, lying, theft, etc. ALL of which are against Church teaching. Being a sinner doesn’t mean you disagree with Church teaching.
However, it is true that a huge percentage of “Catholics” vote left with the side of abortion and are for gay marriage, whatever specifics that includes.
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NeedsMercy
Guest
My goodness, I cannot recall giving my interpretation of what His Holiness said. Could you tell me the post number?
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