What Is a Catholic Feminist? (A thoughtful blog post I wanted to share)

[AngryAtheist8]

Hi,

I disagree with the second part of your first sentence and other parts of what you say above. God is a spirit, He has no gender. I use He to refer to the one God as it is the tradition and has been used in the Bible. I use He also to refer to God the Father. The Trinitarian concept is difficult to understand and as my parish priest said, is difficult to understand. I have no problem waiting to have all the answers in the afterlife. It is about faith.

Re your second para, I do not think that it is a matter of judging women by how closely they adhere ways etc. It is about using Scripture to deem women as not equal to men spiritually and in other ways. As I am Christian I have taken on faith the Trinitarian concept but I repeat God as the Godhead has no gender. I am no theologian so please excuse my less than graceful and clear explaination .

I believe there is no issue about seeing and referring to both the masculine and feminine attributes and characteristics of God. We are made in His image.

Sometimes things are hard to understand because their complicated, but sometimes things are hard to understand because they simply do not make sense.

 

[Betterave]

Finally, while I was interested in the argument that changing word meaning confuses more often than it is helpful, I would argue that pro-life, Catholic feminists are not trying to change the word feminism. They are exposing the lie that feminism is a narrow group of men-hating leftists with a pro-abortion agenda. It is, and always has been, a lie. Internally, feminists generally exalt in the diverse group that we are. The roots of the movement are ours. The current direction remains to be claimed. People who think feminism equals abortion, side with the pro-abortion hoards in their ludicrous claim that demanding equality is impossible unless we can deny our femininity; unless we change or suppress our natural bodily health.

That makes very little sense, I think. There clearly are man-hating pro-abortion pro-lesbianism feminists and they form a powerful constituency within the modern feminist movement. Some of them are even Catholics, and some are even religious. But any Catholic who would exalt in the fact that there are these thoroughly perverse elements within the Church would be lost and confused indeed, from the perspective of the authentic Catholic faith. And the same principles should be applied to the analysis of feminism. The claim that these ‘radical’ elements of the feminist movement are not mainstream and can essentially be ignored be self-described feminists is simply false, it seems to me (certainly naive). The claim that they should be embraced as part of the wonderful “diversity” of feminism strikes me as ludicrous nonsense (of the kind we “non-feminists” have come to expect from mainstream feminists). The claim that feminists “generally exalt in the diverse group that we are” also seems false - feminist in-fighting is not like that in my experience (although it may remain true that the enemy of my enemy is in some sense my friend). In any case, any pro-lifer, Catholic and/or ‘feminist’, who exalted in the opposing presence of the pro-abortion position would have to be radically confused about what it means to be pro-life.

 

[Betterave]

But you’re still a feminist. Forget that some people who identify themselves as that engage in practices that you don’t agree with. If you’re pro-woman’s rights and equality, then you are a feminist.

It’s like saying “I refuse to identify myself as a Catholic because some people are catheteria Catholics.”

No, I think it’s like saying, “I refuse to call myself simply a Catholic because *I am *a cafeteria Catholic.” And that would be the honest thing to do. To simply insist that you’re a Catholic (or feminist), while rejecting mainstream tenets of Catholicism (or feminism) seems disingenuous or naive. Like the group “Catholics for Choice” - you can see the problem there, can’t you?

[A note to those interested: I think there is some good critical discussion in the comments section following the blog posting referred to in the OP.]

 

[ndeparis88]

Hi Lemon and Lime,

We’d clearly have to define the term “Feminist”. You are defining it as “respect for women”, along with a certain amount of acceptance of the modern reality that women are able to do many things for themselves nowadays that might have required a man in the past. If “feminism” means that, it’s common sense.

That’s not how most self-proclaimed feminists define it. I think the specifics change a great deal depending on the individual, but I’d broadly say that modern feminism has to do with the attempt to achieve interchanability with men. It has to do with the creation of a “genderless” person. Otherwise, it has to do with an obsession with the opression of women. It really derives from Marxism as applied to gender issues. That’s how I’d define modern feminism, (though not necessarily the Susan B. Anthony type of the last century). In that sense, I’d reject it as utterly destructive of the family and simple human happiness of men, women and children.

[changes blogger wants]From my fellow Catholics: Stop thinking of women as objects who are here to save you from personal sexual sin; and stop thinking of women as intellectually inferior to men. Stop assuming that all women are meant to bear child after child no matter what; and stop pretending that if women just tried a little harder, men would be happy all the time. Stop blaming women for everything that is wrong with the Church. It’s cowardly and childish.

I agree with the part you said about the paragraph on what the author wants from fellow Catholics. I know my parish doesn’t think that way. I mean I can understand that that train of thought is out there but I from the whole article that paragraph was offsetting. I agree with everything else.

 

[Betterave]

…The claim that they should be embraced as part of the wonderful “diversity” of feminism strikes me as ludicrous nonsense (of the kind we “non-feminists” have come to expect from mainstream feminists)…

To underscore the absurdity of the “exalting in diversity” position, I think the following article is effective and hilarious (not to mention sad and disturbing):

creativeminorityreport.com/2011/06/boston-archdiocese-allows-gay-pride.html

 

[Joan1969]

I completely agree, I think the masculinity of God and MEN being the image of God is emphasised too much, especially on some aspects of this forum here on CAF.

Hi Lemon and Lime,

Yet the practice of calling God “Father”, a profoundly “masculine” term, is utterly Catholic and scriptural. I see no way around it. And at the risk of repeating myself once to often, Jesus is the Bridegroom, another masculine position. These are teachings at the very heart and soul of Christianity, and there is no way to overemphasize either.

It is clear in both Mass and Scripture that the term “man” can refer to human beings in general. I grew up with the term and never even thought of it in any other way, even as a kid.

God Bless,
Joan

 

[severus68]

Sometimes things are hard to understand because their complicated, but sometimes things are hard to understand because they simply do not make sense.

Agreed but not the Trinity. However please re read my last sentence and my other responses on this thread. I do not see any problem in seeing the feminine as well as the masculine in God. I have an issue with some who only see the masculine in God. That is really placing women in a different class - second class. That is not Christianity, that is not Christ’s Church, that is people.

 

[Betterave]

If you want a basic definition of feminism in Christian terms: the one given me by a friend in grad school (and a convert to Catholicism, incidentally) was: “feminists believe that women are made in the image of God.” In Thomistic terms, feminists would say that women are made in God’s image not only in the principal sense (which is uncontroversial) but in every way whatsoever. (In the link I provided, see article 4, reply to objection 1, where Aquinas distinguishes between the “principal” and secondary meanings of the divine image.)

Okay, but what does that ‘Christian feminist’ assertion mean? The secondary meaning of being made in the image of God is: “for man is the beginning and end of woman; as God is the beginning and end of every creature.” How does the Christian feminist interpret this claim? If they want to claim this secondary meaning for their own, then they must be saying what? That woman too (not just man) is the beginning and end of woman (or of man?), as God is the beginning and end of every creature? What would that mean?

That’s why it’s pretty hard to be a feminist and not believe in women’s ordination. The Catholic denial of women’s ordination seems intrinsically tied to the Thomist belief that women are, in a secondary sense, not made in God’s image but rather ordered toward men.

That seems like a non sequitur. Why does the denial of women’s ordination seem (to you)* intrinsically tied *to the Thomist/Pauline/Biblical belief in question? Unless you can explain why the priesthood should in fact be viewed as intrinsically grounded in a person’s sharing in the secondary meaning of being in the image of God - got anything for us about that?

I think that the other places where many feminists contradict Catholic doctrine–sexual morality and abortion chief among them–are not intrinsic to feminism.

How have you come to this conclusion about what is (not) intrinsic to feminism?

 

[nordskoven]

Original Sin is called the “Sin of Adam” in the New Testament. As such, males only may atone for the “Sin of Adam.” Adam betrayed his mandate of power and authority from God as steward of life, and sin and death came into the world when Adam at the forbidden fruit. Males only can atone for the “Sin of Adam.” Woman & Seed were given their own divine mandate: crush Lucifer’s head. Carry on, ladies. That’s Catholic feminism.

Feminism was co-opted by Gloria Steinem, who had her brains washed in Communist Russia as did Bill Clinton after getting kicked out of Oxford for raping a seventeen-year-old. Real feminism, as defined by the likes of Susan B. Anthony, preserves the dignity of woman. Anthony, with the American Medical Association, got abortion outlawed in the USA. Co-opted feminism, led by MS Magazine’s Gloria Steinem and Stalin-loving husband abuser, Betty Freidan, who lived in a mansion and had a maid–not the long-suffering housewife of pop myth. Spin that her-story.

 

[Betterave]

…]
Feminism was co-opted by Gloria Steinem, who had her brains washed in Communist Russia as did Bill Clinton after getting kicked out of Oxford for raping a seventeen-year-old. Real feminism, as defined by the likes of Susan B. Anthony, preserves the dignity of woman. Anthony, with the American Medical Association, got abortion outlawed in the USA. Co-opted feminism, led by MS Magazine’s Gloria Steinem and Stalin-loving husband abuser, Betty Freidan, who lived in a mansion and had a maid–not the long-suffering housewife of pop myth. Spin that her-story.

From what I understand, the term feminism came into popular use only in the 1960’s/70’s, under the tutelage of people like de Beauvoir and Friedan, so I don’t understand the justification for claiming that “real feminism” is defined by the likes of Susan B. Anthony. She may have been an admirable woman, but she never called herself a feminist, and I don’t see why we should think that she defines “real feminism.”

 

[nordskoven]

Feminism really began as a term in France (feminisme) around the end of the 1800s. However, the principals behind this actual term - i.e., the struggle for equality - have been around since the beginning of the Western world. It came to the U.S. at the beginning of the 1900s via an article about a French Suffragist named Madeline Pelltier.

“Jesus was a Feminist” was a popular essay and properly reflected the Church’s position on equality. We are the elect: neither Jew nor Gentile; male nor female; slave nor free. Feminism has had meaning poured into it by Communist influences, no question, just as the Bible has had meaning poured into it by Gnostics like Mormons. Jesus’ teaching is consonant with feminism, not secular humanism/Communism. Susan B. Anthony is the benchmark then and now. I don’t care what monied Communists, i.e., Gloria Steinem or Betty Freidan, say otherwise.

 

[Betterave]

Feminism really began as a term in France (feminisme) around the end of the 1800s. However, the principals behind this actual term - i.e., the struggle for equality - have been around since the beginning of the Western world. It came to the U.S. at the beginning of the 1900s via an article about a French Suffragist named Madeline Pelltier.

Your reference to Madeleine Pelletier seems to confirm my point: Susan B. Anthony who opposed abortion never called herself a feminist, it seems; while Pelletier was an early (first-wave!) feminist (linked to the very coinage of the term(?)) and was also an abortionist! - not to mention, neo-Malthusian, communist, etc.

“Jesus was a Feminist” was a popular essay and properly reflected the Church’s position on equality.

But surely the worst kind of contemporary anti-Christian feminist still makes claims like that??

Feminism has had meaning poured into it by Communist influences, no question, just as the Bible has had meaning poured into it by Gnostics like Mormons. Jesus’ teaching is consonant with feminism, not secular humanism/Communism.

And yes, Pelletier the proabortion first-wave feminist was also a socialist who traveled illegally to the Soviet Union and was officially a Communist, then an Anarchist…

Susan B. Anthony is the benchmark then and now. I don’t care what monied Communists, i.e., Gloria Steinem or Betty Freidan, say otherwise.

…so I still don’t see the grounds for this assertion (much the opposite).

 

[Betterave]

“Jesus was a Feminist” was a popular essay and properly reflected the Church’s position on equality.

I’m curious: a popular essay written when and by whom?

 

[nordskoven]

Robin Morgan’s anthology by feminist ‘nobodys’ included an essay, “Jesus Was a Feminist.” There seems to be much written on this topic Google-wise.

As to what a Catholic feminist is, it is a person who claims gender equity, gender dignity, and gender duty in the name of God-made-Man who instituted it. It is a person who doesn’t let anybody (atheistic Communists/secular humanists etc.) co-opt what is rightly Christ’s. It is a person who doesn’t cede Christian territory. It is a person who assails the gates of Hell as part of the Body of Christ as authorized and empowered to do so as part of the Woman & Seed system of Genesis 3:15; and though facing persecution as the Woman’s “other children” in John’s Apocalypse 12. It is a person who honors the purity of intent of the Immaculate Heart by emulating it.

It is a person who is wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove in bringing the good news about Christ. One example is the Catholic student who passed out flyers entitled “Planned Parenthood” to ignorant bigots on campus who otherwise wouldn’t touch a Jesus tract. Inside was the whole racist story of Margaret Sanger and her genocidal move to rid the world of all brown-eyed people and the role of abortion and birth control in effecting her scheme. A feminist is a person who prays at abortion clinics with a heart full of love, not recrimination and hate. A feminist is one who visits the predominantly-female nursing home denizens, and chats up hookers at the county lockup and rolls them a cigarette like the little Mexican nuns from Nowhere, USA. A Catholic feminist is one who prays and works as counseled by St. Benedict. May Catholic feminists “hear and obey.” There is no goddess, never has been. All those figures are rooted in Mrs. Noah. There is no priestess, only the EN of antiquity, literally “grace” woman, the queen-mother, fulfilled in the Blessed Virgin Mary, Full of Grace.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Robin Morgan’s anthology by feminist ‘nobodys’ included an essay, “Jesus Was a Feminist.” There seems to be much written on this topic Google-wise.

As to what a Catholic feminist is, it is a person who claims gender equity, gender dignity, and gender duty in the name of God-made-Man who instituted it. It is a person who doesn’t let anybody (atheistic Communists/secular humanists etc.) co-opt what is rightly Christ’s. It is a person who doesn’t cede Christian territory. It is a person who assails the gates of Hell as part of the Body of Christ as authorized and empowered to do so as part of the Woman & Seed system of Genesis 3:15; and though facing persecution as the Woman’s “other children” in John’s Apocalypse 12. It is a person who honors the purity of intent of the Immaculate Heart by emulating it.

It is a person who is wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove in bringing the good news about Christ. One example is the Catholic student who passed out flyers entitled “Planned Parenthood” to ignorant bigots on campus who otherwise wouldn’t touch a Jesus tract. Inside was the whole racist story of Margaret Sanger and her genocidal move to rid the world of all brown-eyed people and the role of abortion and birth control in effecting her scheme. A feminist is a person who prays at abortion clinics with a heart full of love, not recrimination and hate. A feminist is one who visits the predominantly-female nursing home denizens, and chats up hookers at the county lockup and rolls them a cigarette like the little Mexican nuns from Nowhere, USA. A Catholic feminist is one who prays and works as counseled by St. Benedict. May Catholic feminists “hear and obey.” There is no goddess, never has been. All those figures are rooted in Mrs. Noah. There is no priestess, only the EN of antiquity, literally “grace” woman, the queen-mother, fulfilled in the Blessed Virgin Mary, Full of Grace.

Very interesting and beautiful post, I completely agree.

 

[Betterave]

Very interesting and beautiful post, I completely agree.

But why? Just because you want to? (Very feminist of you. )

(In the words of Humpty-dumpty: “When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”)

According to you guys, Mary Daly would NOT be a Catholic feminist…so what is she?

Also, Susan B. Anthony used to be the benchmark, but if she was a kind of feminist, she was certainly not a Catholic feminist… (unless you’re Humpty Dumpty). So I guess my point is, you need to be careful about making distinctions. Feminism is generally speaking not what you claim it is, and so you risk contributing to confusion about the significance of this generally pernicious movement, which is a dangerous thing to do, it seems to me.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Feminism was co-opted by Gloria Steinem, who had her brains washed in Communist Russia as did Bill Clinton after getting kicked out of Oxford for raping a seventeen-year-old. Real feminism, as defined by the likes of Susan B. Anthony, preserves the dignity of woman. Anthony, with the American Medical Association, got abortion outlawed in the USA. Co-opted feminism, led by MS Magazine’s Gloria Steinem and Stalin-loving husband abuser, Betty Freidan, who lived in a mansion and had a maid–not the long-suffering housewife of pop myth. Spin that her-story.

I wonder if you have proof for any of these claims

 

[ndeparis88]

Robin Morgan’s anthology by feminist ‘nobodys’ included an essay, “Jesus Was a Feminist.” There seems to be much written on this topic Google-wise.

As to what a Catholic feminist is, it is a person who claims gender equity, gender dignity, and gender duty in the name of God-made-Man who instituted it. It is a person who doesn’t let anybody (atheistic Communists/secular humanists etc.) co-opt what is rightly Christ’s. It is a person who doesn’t cede Christian territory. It is a person who assails the gates of Hell as part of the Body of Christ as authorized and empowered to do so as part of the Woman & Seed system of Genesis 3:15; and though facing persecution as the Woman’s “other children” in John’s Apocalypse 12. It is a person who honors the purity of intent of the Immaculate Heart by emulating it.

It is a person who is wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove in bringing the good news about Christ. One example is the Catholic student who passed out flyers entitled “Planned Parenthood” to ignorant bigots on campus who otherwise wouldn’t touch a Jesus tract. Inside was the whole racist story of Margaret Sanger and her genocidal move to rid the world of all brown-eyed people and the role of abortion and birth control in effecting her scheme. A feminist is a person who prays at abortion clinics with a heart full of love, not recrimination and hate. A feminist is one who visits the predominantly-female nursing home denizens, and chats up hookers at the county lockup and rolls them a cigarette like the little Mexican nuns from Nowhere, USA. A Catholic feminist is one who prays and works as counseled by St. Benedict. May Catholic feminists “hear and obey.” There is no goddess, never has been. All those figures are rooted in Mrs. Noah. There is no priestess, only the EN of antiquity, literally “grace” woman, the queen-mother, fulfilled in the Blessed Virgin Mary, Full of Grace.

I can swing with that. of course being a musician I would try and put a more poetic edge to it but it rolls nicely.

 

[Dale_M]

According to you guys, Mary Daly would NOT be a Catholic feminist…so what is she?.

I think at one time she was a Catholic feminist, and she trained as a Catholic theologian. But her last work dealing with the Christian God was early in her career (her second book), and sometime later she abandoned the Faith.

Formerly a practicing Catholic, she came to regard organized religion as irreparably patriarchal, in later years calling herself “post-Christian.” Where her scholarly concerns had once been largely theological, she gradually came to regard them as spiritual in the broadest sense of the word.

nytimes.com/2010/01/07/education/07daly.html

 

[cecilia97]

I read this post and it really got me thinking. I’ve claimed to be a feminist on this forum and have been told that if I’m a feminist, I must be pro-choice, and I can’t be a Catholic and a feminist. So, what is a Catholic feminist? Please read the whole post, it is really interesting and there’s a message for Catholic men at the end.

Read more: ncregister.com/blog/what-is-a-catholic-feminist/#ixzz1NaeZdruk

This group is not Catholic, but they are pro-life feminists. Pro-choice ideals are anti-woman. Women are stronger than that and deserve better.

feministsforlife.org/