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sedonaman
Guest
I didn’t say I was in favor of it; I said it was not fair.
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sedonaman
Guest
I forgot to include management, supervision, and administrative infrastructure:
Basic rate … $10
SS & Medicare [employer share] … $0.75
Paid annual leave … $0.40
Paid sick leave … $0.20
Health insurance … $3.40
Unemployment insurance… $0.02
Management, supervision, and A.I. $2
Total … $16.96
We use to use a factor of 2X for the cost of an employee, i.e., to employ a person, it cost twice his salary. This is the way we cost out a job. Another way of looking at it is a minimum wage employee who is paid $5 per hour is already costing his employer $10.
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ThomasToo
Guest
Just to be clear, I’m turning a blind eye for asking for data from a reputable source to back up your claim? I know faith is big with religious folk but I’ve always been one to ask for evidence.
I looked at everything I’ve been shown (i.e. an article from Capitalism Magazine), did you look at my source–the one signed by 5 Noble laureates?
Evidence, reason, and articles were supplied.
Apparently not to your satisfaction.
At this point, I feel it safe to say you are willfully turning a blind eye.
I am not certain how ‘noble’ these laureates are, but I can assure you that Nobel laureates do not rank high on my list of authorities on most subjects.
I have found that these nominations appear to have more to do with political climate then with the subject at hand.
Oh, and there is one other thing for you to ask for proof that you will not accept…
The minimum wage helps drive inflation along.
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sedonaman
Guest
This is one problem the Laureates did not address. In fact, the only issue they did address was the effect its raising would have on employment. I raised the question of inflation in a round-about way at the beginning of this discussion and never got an answer. So I ask it again, if we raise the MW to $7.50, as proposed by the Laureates, from whatever it is now, what happens to those already earning $7.50?
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ThomasToo
Guest
Whoops. However, I would count winners of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences as authorities in the area of economics…
They effectively get a cut in pay.
And then they get another once the economy adjusts to the higher minimum wage.
All of this makes me wonder what would happen to the cost of goods if all of these artificial prices set by the goverment were removed while leaving the mandates toward employee safety.
Instinct tells me that it would drive the prices down.
Has anyone ever done a real analysis though?
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sedonaman
Guest
What do you conclude when Laureates disagree? youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk
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jmcrae
Guest
I’m just curious; those who are against the idea of a minimum wage.
Do you think it should be legally required to pay any wages at all, or do you think it should be legal for someone to hire a worker and instead of paying them anything, give them room and board in lieu (ie: a live-in nanny or housekeeper, or a farm hand, or ranch hand).
Do you think it should be legally required to pay any wages at all, or do you think it should be legal for someone to hire a worker and instead of paying them anything, give them room and board in lieu (ie: a live-in nanny or housekeeper, or a farm hand, or ranch hand).
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ThomasToo
Guest
That the question is too complicated to be competently answered by amateurs.
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sedonaman
Guest
In fact, my mother graduated from HS during the Great Depression, and because she had no work experience, no one would hire her even though she could take shorthand and type 120 words/min. So she approached an attorney and offered to work for free for the experience, and he agreed, adding, “That’s cheap enough for me.” After she proved herself on the job, she began to be paid. She was single at the time, but under the proposed “living wage” arrangement, her employer would have had to pay her enough to support a family of four, and she would never have been hired.
One of my relatives came to the US during the age of mass immigration, and he had to bribe a foreman to hire him on his first job, a kind of pay in reverse.
These types of agreements have been made in the past and probably exist even today. Up until about the early '60s, this was the case with the military. A soldier was provided a roof over his head, clothing, three meals, medical, training, transportation, recreation, and even some educational opportunities. What little pay he received was for incidentals. When I was in, I heard of one individual who never left the base because, “If it’s not on the base, I don’t need it.”
Bottom line on this is that a person does what he has to do in order to be hired, and once in the door he is not locked in for life but moves up from there, provided he is willing to apply himself, i.e., make himself more valuable to his employer.
There is also a miss-perception on the part of some that drives debates like this. I’m retired and got into a discussion about the economy with someone who said, “But there are no jobs!” [read: it’s Bush’s fault]. Meanwhile, not a mile down the road was a supermarket with signs all over the building “NOW HIRING”. Just to prove he was wrong, I got a job at the store starting at $7 per hour.
“Someone once defined a social problem as a situation in which the real world differs from the theories of intellectuals. To the intelligentsia, it follows, as the night follows the day, that it is the real world that is wrong and which needs to change.” – Economist Thomas Sowell
I would be in favor of documented compensation.
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sedonaman
Guest
I haven’t seen a question yet that had been competently answered, even by experts, as I tried to illustrate. I attribute it to a phenomenon that I call “Newton’s Third Law of Social Studies” that states, “For every opinion, there is an equal but opposite opinion.” Take your list of experts that includes 5 Nobel Laureates. Did they explain whether or not conditions, including their assumptions, would change if the MW were raised to $7.50, and if so what would change and how; and if not, why not?
So why have these forums? One thing they seem to accomplish is making people aware there are opinions other than liberal ones, and that they just might have some merit.
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jmcrae
Guest
I’m just curious; who was paying her living expenses while she was working for free?
Where did he get the money from, for that?
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jmcrae
Guest
So would I, and it seems as if a minimum wage would ensure that such documentation exists.
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sedonaman
Guest
She was still living at home. Another incident later was when her boss was handling an estate, he had a house he had to sell as part of settling the estate and suggested she buy it to rent out. She did and rented it out until she married at which time she and my dad moved into it. I mention this because it shows that people don’t remain static economically like proponents of MW think.
He brought it with him from Italy.Where did he get the money from, for that?
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ThomasToo
Guest
So to be clear you’re supporting an economic theory based on unpaid labor and bribery?
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sedonaman
Guest
How would it any more than Social Security laws that require a payroll tax to be paid? I think MW laws have more of the opposite effect because they encourage an underground economy.
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ThomasToo
Guest
I imagine taxes of any sort would tend to support an underground economy.
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jmcrae
Guest
If there is no payroll, there is no need to file a payroll tax - if all you are doing is providing food and lodging, without issuing a paycheque, (or if the person is mooching from friends and family members for their support) the person is not an “employee” but rather a “dependent.”
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