What is a decent minimum wage?

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If there is no payroll, there is no need to file a payroll tax - if all you are doing is providing food and lodging, without issuing a paycheque, (or if the person is mooching from friends and family members for their support) the person is not an “employee” but rather a “dependent.”
I’m not a lawyer but I don’t think that’s quite accurate. You’re paying them in kind (with food and lodging which has a monetary value) and they probably owe taxes on the value of that income. I know that’s how it is with similar situations such a free tuition for my roommate who is a university employee.
 
I’m not a lawyer but I don’t think that’s quite accurate. You’re paying them in kind (with food and lodging which has a monetary value) and they probably owe taxes on the value of that income. I know that’s how it is with similar situations such a free tuition for my roommate who is a university employee.
And what would they use for money, to pay the taxes with? :confused:

Presumably your friend has a student loan, or else a part time job, that gives him the money with which he pays his living expenses and his taxes.

In the case of your mother, I am assuming that other than money given or lent to her by her parents, she didn’t have any other source of income.
 
And what would they use for money, to pay the taxes with? :confused:

Presumably your friend has a student loan, or else a part time job, that gives him the money with which he pays his living expenses and his taxes.

In the case of your mother, I am assuming that other than money given or lent to her by her parents, she didn’t have any other source of income.
shrugs I think that’s why most jobs pay you in money.
 
shrugs I think that’s why most jobs pay you in money.
That’s what I think, too. I think that if it became legal to “pay” people in food and lodging rather than in wages, it would put a real dent in the government’s ability to collect taxes. This is probably at least partly why there is a minimum wage law. 🙂
 
So to be clear you’re supporting an economic theory based on unpaid labor and bribery?
That’s what I love: people who take one data point and extrapolate a whole universe.

The government cannot possibly tailor an economy to suit every situation that people are in. Housing in my area is expensive, so the city council, in its infinite wisdom, set up a cheap shuttle bus between here and a nearby city that has lower housing cost so the “oppressed” can live there and work here. Guess what happened. The city had to shut it down for lack of ridership. I will give the city credit for ceasing its operation, as opposed to a federal one that would probably have gone on in perpetuity. That’s why I support people’s ability to find ways that fit their particular situation.
 
That’s what I love: people who take one data point and extrapolate a whole universe.
Sorry for the confusion; I just know that from my perspective both of the stories you told are not things that I would want to support but you hold them up as success stories of the paradigm you’re encouraging.
 
Sorry for the confusion; I just know that from my perspective both of the stories you told are not things that I would want to support but you hold them up as success stories of the paradigm you’re encouraging.
So you prefer the current system of unions bribing politicians for favors.
 
So you prefer the current system of unions bribing politicians for favors.
Not quite; I think unions have outlasted the usefulness at least according to everyone I know including many union workers. But I prefer a system where it’s illegal to pay someone a pittance (or not pay them at all–unless you call it an internship and they get academic credit but that’s a whole different thing).
 
So you prefer the current system of unions bribing politicians for favors.
I hope that’s not what it takes, to get employers to pay people a minimum survival wage for unskilled or semi-skilled labour.
 
ThomasToo -

Here is a wonderful article explaining the need for internships authored through a wonderful organization.

mises.org/daily/4243
Oh, I know internships for students pursuing a degree are very important. I just didn’t want someone to say ‘oh you’re, against free labor so obviously you’re opposed to internships.’ That said, internships and working for someone for free aren’t the same thing at all.
 
ThomasToo -

Here is a wonderful article explaining the need for internships authored through a wonderful organization.

mises.org/daily/4243
The government is saying that all of this could be illegal. M. Patricia Smith, as New York Labor commissioner, led a crackdown last year, and now, as a federal Labor Department enforcer, she is doing the same on a national level. The reason is that many of the internships are said to violate the minimum-wage law, among many other laws governing employment.
This is unjust and a perfect example of what Sowell was talking about in his quote above. I see nothing wrong with this arrangement as long as both are willing. There is valuable experience to be gained as an intern.

As a first level supervisor, I think being able to scope out an employee is extremely valuable because laws these days make it almost impossible to fire someone unless he’s gone postal. Even then, I would have my doubts. I had a problem employee once who had been an intern 20 years before he was hired on permanently. Even as an intern, he was a problem, but no one was willing to let him go for fear of a lawsuit. He finally ended up in my group, but I was unwilling to put up with his nonsense, so I literally drove him crazy.

But not to fear, in a free society of creative people, there are ways of circumventing unjust laws. For example, I could elect not to have any employees at all and just rely on contract service, and if a contractor type is not working out, I simply call his supervisor and demand a different person. The problem person then is laid off because there is no work for him.

I’d be willing to bet any amount of money that federal Labor Department enforcer Patricia Smith has never even been a first level supervisor, had to solve a bad employee problem personally, or even been an intern herself for that matter.
 
Just to be clear, I’m turning a blind eye for asking for data from a reputable source to back up your claim? I know faith is big with religious folk but I’ve always been one to ask for evidence.

I looked at everything I’ve been shown (i.e. an article from Capitalism Magazine), did you look at my source–the one signed by 5 Noble laureates?
I linked to a general economic education website and to the United State Congress, which are hardly partisan rags.

You refused to look at it because you are using a classic defense mechanism, turning a blind eye to what would disprove a cherished belief.

The very fact that you think there is any debate about the effect of a price floor, and hence the need for a “peer reviewed journal article”, shows how profoundly ignorant of economics you are.

The minimum wage increasing unemployment is as orthodox a position among economist as the Big Bang is to physicist or evolution is to biologist.
 
I linked to a general economic education website and to the United State Congress, which are hardly partisan rags.

You refused to look at it because you are using a classic defense mechanism, turning a blind eye to what would disprove a cherished belief.

The very fact that you think there is any debate about the effect of a price floor, and hence the need for a “peer reviewed journal article”, shows how profoundly ignorant of economics you are.

The minimum wage increasing unemployment is as orthodox a position among economist as the Big Bang is to physicist or evolution is to biologist.
The price floor is not a discussion of the minimum wage and its impact on unemployment. You may see it implies this but I don’t think it’s quite that clear cut.

How profoundly ignorant of economics I am? Honest question, do you have any advanced academic training in economics? If not I think we’re on pretty even footing.

Please show me five Nobel laureates in physics who deny the Big Bang or in biology who deny evolution; I’ve shown five in economics who disagree with your conclusion. I don’t think this conclusion on a rather minor point of economic theory is nearly on the same level of evolution or the Big Bang–central and unifying concepts of a field.
 
The price floor is not a discussion of the minimum wage and its impact on unemployment. You may see it implies this but I don’t think it’s quite that clear cut.

How profoundly ignorant of economics I am? Honest question, do you have any advanced academic training in economics? If not I think we’re on pretty even footing.

Please show me five Nobel laureates in physics who deny the Big Bang or in biology who deny evolution; I’ve shown five in economics who disagree with your conclusion. I don’t think this conclusion on a rather minor point of economic theory is nearly on the same level of evolution or the Big Bang–central and unifying concepts of a field.
The minimum wage is a perfect example of a price floor. All the market dislocation associated with price floors also apply to minimum wage laws because THE MINIMUM WAGE IS A PRICE FLOOR.

Two points concerning “advanced academic training in economics”:
  1. Yes, I’ve had economics training in college and did graduate work in business.
  2. Even if the above were not the case, you don’t have to be an economics professor to speak of economics. Do you only speak about things you have a college degree in?
In fact I had an economics professor, M.I.T. PhD and all, who explained the entire section of our class dealing with price floors by only speaking of minimum wage and agricultural subsidy laws.

He stated that practically all economists are hard core liberals, which he self identified as. But he was also intellectually honest enough to say that minimum wage laws and the like are only good for make people feel warm and fuzzy and actually exacerbate the problems they were meant to solve.

He always said “free markets are maximally efficient, but they are not always equitable.” That’s why he did his research in the non-profit sector because he saw that as the best hope of using the efficiency of capitalism for more equitable results.
 
“Historically, defenders of the minimum wage have not disputed the disemployment effects of the minimum wage, but argued that on balance the working poor were better off. In other words, the higher incomes of those with jobs offset the lower incomes of those without jobs, as a result of the minimum wage [See, for example, Levitan and Belous, (1979)].”

That is from the research of the House of Representatives which I posted earlier, which you felt free to dismiss without reading.

There is no serious dispute. Minimum wage laws increase unemployment. So, as I asked several posts ago, please explain to me how raising unemployment for the those who are already on the low end of the wage scale is moral.
 
The minimum wage is a perfect example of a price floor. All the market dislocation associated with price floors also apply to minimum wage laws because THE MINIMUM WAGE IS A PRICE FLOOR.

Two points concerning “advanced academic training in economics”:
  1. Yes, I’ve had economics training in college and did graduate work in business.
  2. Even if the above were not the case, you don’t have to be an economics professor to speak of economics. Do you only speak about things you have a college degree in?
I speak about things in which I do not have academic training. I am, however, hesitant to make grand proclamations about the state of a field in which I do not have training. For example, while I am comfortable talking about evolution, cosmology, myth theory or the historicity of Jesus there comes a point where I simply to not have a sufficient grasp on the details or issues at hand to speak intelligently on a given level.
“Historically, defenders of the minimum wage have not disputed the disemployment effects of the minimum wage, but argued that on balance the working poor were better off. In other words, the higher incomes of those with jobs offset the lower incomes of those without jobs, as a result of the minimum wage [See, for example, Levitan and Belous, (1979)].” That is from the research of the House of Representatives which I posted earlier, which you felt free to dismiss without reading.

There is no serious dispute. Minimum wage laws increase unemployment. So, as I asked several posts ago, please explain to me how raising unemployment for the those who are already on the low end of the wage scale is moral.
As I recall from that same site (which I read through about half of) the small change in unemployment seems mostly to affect the very young (which I read as high school students but this may not be true).

If there is no serious dispute then why did 650 economists cosign the letter I posted above? This is not a question to lead to more debate–although I fear it will–it seems to me that such a mass of people, many of them leaders in the field, would be in tune with the academic consensus. What am I missing?
 

He stated that practically all economists are hard core liberals, which he self identified as.
So finding five of them to say the MW should be raised would not be any great feat. *
But he was also intellectually honest enough to say that minimum wage laws and the like are only good for make people feel warm and fuzzy and actually exacerbate the problems they were meant to solve.
And that’s what Sowell says about liberals. All they care about is “feeling”. One thing that non-technical people have trouble grasping is the concept of diminishing returns. A good example of this is the educational system: the more money you shovel at it, the worse it gets.
He always said “free markets are maximally efficient, but they are not always equitable.” That’s why he did his research in the non-profit sector because he saw that as the best hope of using the efficiency of capitalism for more equitable results.
👍
In fact, people in general don’t want them to be equitable. That’s why they work hard to get ahead. Didn’t liberals go to college to better themselves? Here’s an idea: make all liberals work for minimum wage so the poor are equal to them.*
 
Here’s an idea: make all liberals work for minimum wage…
I have worked for minimum wage. Your system works as long as all conservatives are willing to work for less than what the minimum wage is now (e.g. $5 an hour let’s say).
 
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