What is a Hebrew Catholic?

[SAVINGRACE]

So I’m watching Journey Home with guest David Moss who is a Hebrew Catholic.

On the show he said Jews who come home to the Church prefer not to be referred to as ‘converts’ that they are simply fulfilling their Jewish faith.

They have accepted Christ as the Messiah, does that mean they are still Jewish?

 

[Divine3]

I think so. I always see Jesus as Jewish. He is the fulfillment of the Torah. The Hebrew Catholic is a great little magazine which really explains about what happens in the life of a Jew when they come to the fullness of the Catholic faith. Here is their web sitewww.hebrewcatholic.org It is a great little booklet that has a wealth of teachings about our Jewish roots.

 

[ServusHumilis]

I’ve heard of a man who was raised Jewish but believed Christ to be the Messiah; he attends the Extraordinary Form of the Mass wearing a kippah and tallit.

 

[7_Sorrows]

And do not confuse Hebrew Catholic with Messianic Jew.

There is a great book written by a Hebrew Catholic called Salvation is from the Jews. I think the author’s name is Roy Schoeman.

 

[eamonnroma]

And do not confuse Hebrew Catholic with Messianic Jew.

So what is the difference?

 

[7_Sorrows]

Hebrew Catholics practice the Catholic faith.

Messianic Jews are more aligned with protestantism.

 

[meltzerboy]

I think so. I always see Jesus as Jewish. He is the fulfillment of the Torah. The Hebrew Catholic is a great little magazine which really explains about what happens in the life of a Jew when they come to the fullness of the Catholic faith. Here is their web sitewww.hebrewcatholic.org It is a great little booklet that has a wealth of teachings about our Jewish roots.

This is assuming the Torah has a fulfillment. According to most streams of Judaism, the Torah’s “fulfillment” means the study and practice of the Torah’s teachings become renewed and intensified during the Messianic age.

With regard to whether the Hebrew Catholic is still Jewish, while some Jews may disagree, I believe that if one is Jewish (either born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism), that becomes an indelible mark which can never be erased, much as a baptized Catholic remains Catholic even though they may convert to another religion.

 

[InNomineDomini]

They have accepted Christ as the Messiah, does that mean they are still Jewish?

I like the way Roy Schoeman puts it. To paraphrase:

All I’ve done is gone from being a Jew who was wrong about the Messiah to a Jew who is right about Him. And if Jews are supposed to be right about everything, I’m more Jewish now than ever before.

The above is simply based on the assumption that the Jewish religion was nothing more than Catholicism before the Messiah came; and that Catholicism is nothing more than the Jewish religion after He came. (Modern, Rabbinical Judaism, I would argue, is the response of a certain Jewish sect to Temple sacrifice becoming impossible; and a lot of its positions on things like the Messiah are, frankly, motivated by being a response to Christianity’s claims.)

The Hebrew Catholics are simply Jews who have become Catholic, and who’ve chosen to be associated with each other. Unlike some Protestant groups, the reasons for this aren’t to create a more Jewish-flavored Christianity, but simply to be together as a people for mutual support. Also, especially at the stage of entering the Church, Jews do need certain forms of assistance which aren’t readily available. Many of them, for example, might have objections to the faith which someone like a Protestant has never even heard of! Hebrew Catholics help with such things. Lastly, it’s to explore the Jewish roots of the Catholic faith, since one illumines the other. (One example we might all be familiar with, is the connection between the Passover Seder and the Last Supper.)

I absolutely love this subject, and I’d recommend highly the Association of Hebrew Catholics, which I think someone else has mentioned. I’d also recommend Roy Schoeman’s website: salvationisfromthejews.com

Here’s a link to archives of Mr. Schoeman’s radio program: radiomaria.us/salvation-is-from-the-jews/

Here are some of his talks: salvationisfromthejews.com/candptalks.html

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I was also reminded of the papal announcement that Catholics are forbidden from prosletysing Jews.

David Moss and Roy Schoeman’s Journey Home story are very similar in that they both had ‘visions and encounters’ similar to Saul (St Paul). They were both in states of ‘ecstasy’ and came out of those states with a hunger to know his Church.

 

[StGerardMajella]

They have accepted Christ as the Messiah, does that mean they are still Jewish?

Ethnically, yes. By rabbinical standards, no.

You have to remember that being Jewish is both a religious affiliation, an ethnicity, and a “culture” or “civilization”. This is how Shai Cherry, speaker in the Teaching Company’s lecture series, “Introduction to Judaism”, describes the term “Jewish”.

So, you can very well have an individual who is ethnically Jewish, but affiliates with a non-Jewish religion, such as Catholicism. There are even Jews who are unaffiliated with any religion, and are atheist or agnostic. You sometimes hear the term, “secular Jew”, referring to a person who has Jewish ethnicity, but does not practice any particular religion.

(Incidentally, this creates a lot of turmoil and angst for Gentiles seeking to convert to Judaism, as they cannot understand how it is acceptable for ethnic Jews who are non-observant of their faith can be considered “Jewish”, but converts who are quite zealous for Judaism and even religiously observant of Jewish law have to go through a very strenuous, difficult, and long conversion process. But alas, this is a different topic, and I digress.)

The Hebrew Catholic movement is in communion with Rome. Most are ethnically Jewish, but have spouses or family affiliations that are Catholic, and have therefore embraced Catholicism. The Mass is celebrated in Hebrew, and most Hebrew Catholics are located in Israel.

From what I have read thus far, they are permitted to retain and practice Jewish cultural (and biblical) traditions, such as keeping kosher, celebrating Passover, wearing tefillin (phylacteries), etc., while still remaining Catholic. The idea being that just as German Catholic and Polish Catholics, for example, have their own cultural identity and traditions, so do Jewish members of the Hebrew Catholic community.

Messianic Jews are not affiliated with Rome. There is also a large population of Messianic Jews in Israel, though they don’t receive the same press and publicity as other strands of Judaism. Messianic Jews do not celebrate traditional Catholic liturgical services nor sacraments as typically expressed in the Catholic faith. They believe in Christ as the Messiah, but they more closely follow an alternative version of Judaism than Catholicism. This raises, apparently, quite a bit of controversy among their Jewish brethren who do not accept Christ as the Messiah.

 

[meltzerboy]

Ethnically, yes. By rabbinical standards, no.

You have to remember that being Jewish is both a religious affiliation, an ethnicity, and a “culture” or “civilization”. This is how Shai Cherry, speaker in the Teaching Company’s lecture series, “Introduction to Judaism”, describes the term “Jewish”.

So, you can very well have an individual who is ethnically Jewish, but affiliates with a non-Jewish religion, such as Catholicism. There are even Jews who are unaffiliated with any religion, and are atheist or agnostic. You sometimes hear the term, “secular Jew”, referring to a person who has Jewish ethnicity, but does not practice any particular religion.

The Hebrew Catholic movement is in communion with Rome. Most are ethnically Jewish, but have spouses or family affiliations that are Catholic, and have therefore embraced Catholicism. The Mass is celebrated in Hebrew, and most Hebrew Catholics are located in Israel.

From what I have read thus far, they are permitted to retain and practice Jewish cultural (and biblical) traditions, such as keeping kosher, celebrating Passover, wearing tefillin (phylacteries), etc., while still remaining Catholic. The idea being that just as German Catholic and Polish Catholics, for example, have their own cultural identity and traditions, so do Jewish members of the Hebrew Catholic community.

Messianic Jews are not affiliated with Rome. There is also a large population of Messianic Jews in Israel, though they don’t receive the same press and publicity as other strands of Judaism. Messianic Jews do not celebrate traditional Catholic liturgical services nor sacraments as typically expressed in the Catholic faith. They believe in Christ as the Messiah, but they more closely follow an alternative version of Judaism than Catholicism. This raises, apparently, quite a bit of controversy among their Jewish brethren who do not accept Christ as the Messiah.

Even according to religious standards of the definition of who is Jewish, I don’t think all, or even most, rabbis, including some Orthodox rabbis, would agree that Jewish converts to Catholicism are definitively cut off from being Jewish. Agnostic or atheist Jews are still considered Jewish, no matter how far from being orthodox they are, and I believe the same applies to Hebrew Catholics. Of course, it is frowned upon in the larger Jewish community and they may be treated as pariahs, but in terms of religious standards, I don’t think they necessarily forfeit their Jewish status.

There is even a Jewish movement, of which I’ve spoken several times in the past, called Nazarene Judaism, which considers itself Jewish, not Christian, yet believes Jesus is the Messiah, while rejecting His divinity. The members of this movement do not identify as either Hebrew Catholics or Messianic Jews.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Even according to religious standards of the definition of who is Jewish, I don’t think all, or even most, rabbis, including some Orthodox rabbis, would agree that Jewish converts to Catholicism are definitively cut off from being Jewish…

Agreed. The religious practices of Hebrew Catholics that fall outside of traditional Judaism (celebrating the Catholic Mass, for example) would not be considered Jewish. Hebrew Catholics are still ethnically Jewish, but their religious practices are identifiably Catholic.

An Irish Catholic can stop practicing Catholicism, but they are still Irish. In both cases, the hope is that they will return to the traditional faith of their ancestors at some point. A Hebrew Catholic could still revert back to their traditional Jewish faith.

 

[Divine3]

This is assuming the Torah has a fulfillment. According to most streams of Judaism, the Torah’s “fulfillment” means the study and practice of the Torah’s teachings become renewed and intensified during the Messianic age.
Yes, I see what you are saying. I was trying to remember when Jesus said some where in scripture or it was said about him, that he was the fulfillment of the law or that he is the new covenant. Just don’t remember where in scripture that is referenced to. Thanks

 

[Divine3]

This is assuming the Torah has a fulfillment. According to most streams of Judaism, the Torah’s “fulfillment” means the study and practice of the Torah’s teachings become renewed and intensified during the Messianic age.

With regard to whether the Hebrew Catholic is still Jewish, while some Jews may disagree, I believe that if one is Jewish (either born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism), that becomes an indelible mark which can never be erased, much as a baptized Catholic remains Catholic even though they may convert to another religion.

Yes, I see what you mean regarding Torah. I was trying to remember this quote from scared scripture: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…thanks

 

[7_Sorrows]

Even according to religious standards of the definition of who is Jewish, I don’t think all, or even most, rabbis, including some Orthodox rabbis, would agree that Jewish converts to Catholicism are definitively cut off from being Jewish. Agnostic or atheist Jews are still considered Jewish, no matter how far from being orthodox they are, and I believe the same applies to Hebrew Catholics. Of course, it is frowned upon in the larger Jewish community and they may be treated as pariahs, but in terms of religious standards, I don’t think they necessarily forfeit their Jewish status.

There is even a Jewish movement, of which I’ve spoken several times in the past, called Nazarene Judaism, which considers itself Jewish, not Christian, yet believes Jesus is the Messiah, while rejecting His divinity. The members of this movement do not identify as either Hebrew Catholics or Messianic Jews.

That is the first I have ever heard of Nazarene Judaism.

 

[Thorolfr]

With regard to whether the Hebrew Catholic is still Jewish, while some Jews may disagree, I believe that if one is Jewish (either born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism), that becomes an indelible mark which can never be erased, much as a baptized Catholic remains Catholic even though they may convert to another religion.

Does this also apply to Baptists? I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church, so does this mean that I remain a Baptist somehow even if I convert to another denomination or to another faith? If I became Catholic would I become a Baptist Catholic? Right now I’m a Baptist Lutheran

The notion that being baptized Catholic would leave an indelible Catholic mark is a little odd since other baptized Christians who convert to Catholicism are considered to have a valid baptism if they were baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (i.e. trinitarian).

 

[meltzerboy]

Does this also apply to Baptists? I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church, so does this mean that I remain a Baptist somehow even if I convert to another denomination or to another faith? If I became Catholic would I become a Baptist Catholic? Right now I’m a Baptist Lutheran

I’m no authority on the Baptist religion, so I would have to defer to one who knows how conversion works in this case.

 

[Divine3]

Baptist is not the same as being Jewish – the Baptist are another branch broken from originally the Roman Catholic religion. Jewish (meaning not one who has converted to Judaism) is a people, a tribe, …like the tribe of Judah — it goes back to being the chosen people of God – One just has to read the Jewish scriptures (Old Testament) to realize the greatness of these realities.
Yet, the tragic reality is that some have not believed that Jesus is the Messiah sent to redeem Israel. It is great to pray for the conversion of the Jews. Because what great gifts will be given to the church when they make the full circle to believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the fullness of the faith–

 

[7_Sorrows]

Does this also apply to Baptists? I was baptized in a Southern Baptist church, so does this mean that I remain a Baptist somehow even if I convert to another denomination or to another faith? If I became Catholic would I become a Baptist Catholic? Right now I’m a Baptist Lutheran

The notion that being baptized Catholic would leave an indelible Catholic mark is a little odd since other baptized Christians who convert to Catholicism are considered to have a valid baptism if they were baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (i.e. trinitarian).

I was a baptized and confirmed episcopalian and even though I have been Catholic since July of 2008 you can not erase what was once a part of your life. Even though I was a non-attending church Christian for over 20 years and I am living a Catholic life now I cannot erase my early beginnings and the marks they left on my life. I wouldn’t expect a Jewish person to want to disown the Jewish part of himself or herself ehen the person becomes a Hebrew Catholic.
For me there was no authority in the episcopal church and I realized I could not belong to a church that was moving so far away from the Catholic church and its teachings.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

The Catholic Church does not allow any other ‘convert’ to the CC to practice rituals of their ‘previous’ christian denomination or faith. The Jews are the only exception to this rule.

For example a convert who was previously part of an Episcopalian congregation were they were eligible to marry their SS partner will not be able to do that once converted. Same applies for any other christian convert. A muslim convert would not be allowed to participate in muslim rituals. Same applies for Hindus, Buddhists etc.

The Jews are given special consideration by the CC due to their special status as belonging to the Chosen People and Elder Brothers in the faith. Jews who convert to Catholicism are allowed to practice Jewish rituals because the CC does not view any Jewish faith ritual as being incompatible with Catholicism.

The Jewish religious/secular/cultural community may and have disagreed with this practice.