What is a saint?

[SSTeacher]

Hi Pat,

presuppositions, are based on knowledge of the truth as taught and expressed through the teachings of the RCC.

I think a presupposition is something that one takes for granted – something that one assumes to begin with.

I do not belief that I have posted anything close “to an assumption” on my part. I am sharing the teachings and beliefs of the RCC. On Matter and Faith and or Morals (only) the RCC is the seat of, and holder of all TRUTH. It is this that I try to articulate for you. Sometimes I suceed, and sometimes… OPPS!

If my understanding of what a presupposition is correct then it’s quite likely you wouldn’t even realize that you were making an assumption. I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with assumptions, by the way. I’m just doing my best to understand what it is that you’re assuming. It now seems to me that you’re a faithful Catholic trying your best to explain to me the teachings of the Catholic Church, as you understand them to be.

You choose wisely my friend

Thanks.

From the 1994 Catecjesim of the RCC…
**2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
**

So, in response to my question as to whether you regard the Death Penalty as biblical, unbiblical, or anti–biblical, you quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church verbatim. That’s helpful to me. It leads me to believe you presuppose that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the final arbiter on difficult questions. Evangelicals like me usually look to the Bible for our answers. We presuppose that the Bible, rather than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is the final arbiter.

Clearly, one can see Divne Justice played out in the OT Bible, that resulted in death.

Their are issues of self-defence, that are in justice permitted.

The authority of the Bible, because it is a Catholic Book, flows from God, through His Catholic Church, so the level of authority is the same. Thus we feel free to interchange them at will.

I’m sorry:crying:

I really am sorry. I hope the above comment helps your understanding?

The Bible flows from God through the interpetion of His Church, and the teachings of the Church come from either explicitly ot implicitly biblical.

Well, how can you be certain that your understanding of the Bible isn’t errant or that you haven’t been subject to improper catechesis?

You make a very valid point. That is what I endeaver to continually learn the Catholic Church teachings on all matters of faith and or Morals.

If in doubt about what the RCC teaches, I check the Haydock Catholic Comentary, Matthew henreys Commentary (not Catholic but quite often in line with out Theology) and I have a Spiritual Advisor who has advanced Theology degrees to ask if I’m still uncertain.

I’m seldom wrong, because I’m not prone to sharing my personal opinion, and endever to stick with what I know is Catholic Church Teaching.

Still. I could be wrong. If you think I am, please challance me, and I’ll try even harder to get you the evidence you need.

I am really enjoynig our conversation, and look forward to hearing back from you,

Love and prayers, Pat

No, I don’t necessarily think you’re wrong. My understanding is that the mark of a faithful Catholic is to do as the Catholic Church teaches and it seems that you fall into that category. I have no complaints about that.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)

So, in response to my question as to whether you regard the Death Penalty as biblical, unbiblical, or anti–biblical, you quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church verbatim. That’s helpful to me. It leads me to believe you presuppose that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the final arbiter on difficult questions. Evangelicals like me usually look to the Bible for our answers. We presuppose that the Bible, rather than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is the final arbiter.

(Snip)

Cordially,
Mick

Mick,
Just wanted to comment on this because it is soooo well put.
Such things do boil down to our “belief system” or “Our Faith” which in a sense is also our “resuppostion” or “point of view”.

As Catholics we DO see the Church as the final arbiter since this is the way that Jesus set it up. He commanded us to abide by the decisions of the Church in Matthew 18:15-18 and we see this clearly demonstrated in Acts 15:1-29. That is the rough Biblical basis based upon what I read.
As to the Catachism I would like to point out that, to anyone who might read this, that the lessons in the catachism are highly footnoted with crossreferences to both the Scriptures AND the Early Church fathers. This helps to give us great confidence that the teachings contained in the catachism are Truly and wholly grounded in Christ.

Peace
James

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5008757:

(Snip)

So, in response to my question as to whether you regard the Death Penalty as biblical, unbiblical, or anti–biblical, you quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church verbatim. That’s helpful to me. It leads me to believe you presuppose

that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the final arbiter on difficult questions. Evangelicals like me usually look to the Bible for our answers. We presuppose that the Bible, rather than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is the final arbiter.

(snip)

Cordially,
Mick
:thumbsup:Mick,
Just wanted to comment on this because it is soooo well put.
Such things do boil down to our “belief system” or “Our Faith” which in a sense is also our “presupposition” or “point of view”.

As Catholics we DO see the Church as the final arbiter since this is the way that Jesus set it up. He commanded us to abide by the decisions of the Church in Matthew 18:15-18 and we see this clearly demonstrated in Acts 15:1-29. That is the rough Biblical basis based upon what I read.
As to the Catechism I would like to point out that, to anyone who might read this, that the lessons in the catechism are highly footnoted with crossreferences to both the Scriptures AND the Early Church fathers. This helps to give us great confidence that the teachings contained in the catechism are Truly and wholly grounded in Christ.

Peace
James

Hi James,

Thanks for your comment.

Actually, I’d go so far as to say that the presuppositions we hold are pivotal. That’s why apologists and evangelists who are unaware of the existence of their own presuppositions end up talking largely to themselves. Evangelicals do this rather well, I think.

Convivially,
Mick

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;5011111]Mick,
Just wanted to comment on this because it is soooo well put.
Such things do boil down to our “belief system” or “Our Faith” which in a sense is also our “resuppostion” or “point of view”.

As Catholics we DO see the Church as the final arbiter since this is the way that Jesus set it up. He commanded us to abide by the decisions of the Church in Matthew 18:15-18 and we see this clearly demonstrated in Acts 15:1-29. That is the rough Biblical basis based upon what I read.
As to the Catachism I would like to point out that, to anyone who might read this, that the lessons in the catachism are highly footnoted with crossreferences to both the Scriptures AND the Early Church fathers. This helps to give us great confidence that the teachings contained in the catachism are Truly and wholly grounded in Christ.

Peace
James

Brother James,

Very well done my friend! Very well done.:tiphat:

In 2007 and 2008 I took it upon myself to read the the book of all of the catechism’s footnotes, nearly 4000 pages long. So I can add personal testimony that Indeed we Roman Catholics are a BIBLE BASED CHURCH. Actually is was a very good read.

The Catechism didn’t simply appear. It is rooted in the Bible and Sacred Tradition, and because the entire New Testamant was written By Catholics and For Catholics and because we had the only Bible fro nearly 1,500 years, this really should not surprise anyone.

James, Thank you.