What is a saint?

[D0UBTFIRE]

Bookcat, I was giving these some thoughts too…

A few examples…

Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. (Rm 16:13 RSV CE)

By saying “and all the saints who are with them” is not the same as saying and all believers who are with them are saints. That there are saints among Christians there is no doubt, but that doesn’t mean that all Christians are saints.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God… (Ep 2:19 RSV CE)

What does it mean to be “fellow citizens with”? I think this points toward the idea of the communion of saints…that we are all part of God’s family…but it certainly does not make clear the idea that all baptized believers are saints. The way I see this passage is that as believers we are now also God’s adopted children, and that our brothers and sisters who are in heaven (read: saints) along with us who now believe are part of God’s family. But being part of God’s family (as I consider myself to be) and being a saint (which I certainly don’t consider myself to be - although I wish I was and strive for it) are two VERY different things. The way I see it, to be “fellow citizens …of the household of God” doesn’t mean we as believers are the same as those saints in heaven who also are members of the household of God.

For further discussion, what is the definition of a “saint”? Doesn’t the word “saint” mean “holy”?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but If I understand correctly, one can only get to heaven by dying in a state of grace, but even those who do die in a state of grace often end up in purgatory to be purged, the reason being that only someone holy can go to heaven. Therefor, if someone dies in a state of grace but doesn’t exactly go straight to heaven then being in a state of grace is not the same as being a holy (read: saint).

Does being “in the state of grace” mean the same thing as being “holy”? If so, then why purgatory???

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat, I was giving these some thoughts too…

By saying “and all the saints who are with them” is not the same as saying and all believers who are with them are saints. That there are saints among Christians there is no doubt, but that doesn’t mean that all Christians are saints.

Actually yes it does. the term saint meant here Christians. They have been made holy by Faith and Baptism…by Jesus Christ.

Again …see Pope Benedict XVI’s quote.

 

[Bookcat]

What does it mean to be “fellow citizens with”? I think this points toward the idea of the communion of saints…that we are all part of God’s family…but it certainly does not make clear the idea that all baptized believers are saints. The way I see this passage is that as believers we are now also God’s adopted children, and that our brothers and sisters who are in heaven (read: saints) along with us who now believe are part of God’s family. But being part of God’s family (as I consider myself to be) and being a saint (which I certainly don’t consider myself to be - although I wish I was and strive for it) are two VERY different things. The way I see it, to be “fellow citizens …of the household of God” doesn’t mean we as believers are the same as those saints in heaven who also are members of the household of God.

Paul is here speaking to Gentiles…who previously had NOT been fellow citizens with the Christians…(or the first People of God the Jews) …but then the Gentiles were joined to the People of God by being in Christ…by faith and baptism…One has to understand Paul’s letter in the context he wrote it. Now there was no dividing wall between Jew and Gentile…now the Gentiles were part of God’s household…

One must understand …it is addressed to Gentiles who had before this been far off…non citizens…

 

[Bookcat]

For further discussion, what is the definition of a “saint”? Doesn’t the word “saint” mean “holy”?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but If I understand correctly, one can only get to heaven by dying in a state of grace, but even those who do die in a state of grace often end up in purgatory to be purged, the reason being that only someone holy can go to heaven. Therefor, if someone dies in a state of grace but doesn’t exactly go straight to heaven then being in a state of grace is not the same as being a holy (read: saint).

Does being “in the state of grace” mean the same thing as being “holy”? If so, then why purgatory???

yes …set apart…holy.

Being ‘In Christ’ is being holy (so long as one is in a state of grace)…those who are being purified in the state of purgatory are still holy…but getting purified more…just as the Baptized on earth if they are in a state of grace…are holy…but not completely holy in the sense that they can have various venial sins etc… though they are set apart by baptism. And are in Christ. They are a new creation!

Saint has as mentioned above…different senses.

When Paul uses saint…he is referring to Christians.

 

[Bookcat]

I was thinking about this quote…The first half is a direct quote from Corinthians, the second half is what the Holy Father said. I noticed that in the Corinthians part, Paul says we Christians are “called to be saints”. I don’t think that means that we are saints, but literally that we are called by God to attempt to be saints. The second half is were the Holy Father seems to give his interpretation of that Corinthians passage. I assume he didn’t say this originally in English, I’m wondering if there might be a problem with the translation. The reason I wonder is because he seems to contradict himself when he says that “Christians are already saints” versus “they must become so”. Both can’t be true. We can’t already be saints and make an effort to become saints. (I suppose we could already be saints and make an effort to stay saints, but the word in the quote is “become”, which gives a different meaning.) .

Faith seeking understanding

Called to be saints…in that God “called us”…before we were Christians. So likewise YOU are called to be a saint in baptism And remember …the Corinthians were Gentiles…who were called into the new Household of God…Called from where they were not…

And also one can say one is called to be always and more and more saints…holy.

You have all very good questions But the answers involve understanding who Paul is writing to and the sense of the words he uses.

When a person is baptized…the are now “in Christ” they ARE HOLY…they are a temple of the HOLY SPIRIT…they are “in Christ” …they are sanctified…they are a new creation…they are sons in the Son…they are set apart for God…they are a priestly people…they are changed and made holy by God.

But then again…YES after baptism we must by grace and our cooperation with grace…by the life of faith hope and charity…etc remain in the grace of Christ…remain holy…and if we commit a mortal sin…we must receive the Sacrament of Confession and be restored to the life of Christ…to holiness… and YES we must seek to follow Christ and press on …ever upwards…and become more and more like Christ…more and more holy.

And some of us will by the grace of God …be very heroic in this…and even be set up in honor and as examples etc by the Church…as canonized Saints …

 

[Bookcat]

A few other quotes from the RSV CE…

But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem. (Acts 9:13)

Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda. (Acts 9:32)

Contribute to the needs of the saints (Rm 12:13)

At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem with aid for the saints. (Rm: 15:25)

that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her … (Rm 16:2)

As in all the churches of the saints (1 Cor 14:33)

Now I urge you, brethern, you know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints (1 Cor 16:15)

begging us earnestly for the favour of taking part in the relief of the saints (2 Cor 8:4)

All the saints greet you. (2 Cor 13:13)

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are also faithful in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:1)

For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints (Eph 1:15)

To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph 3:8)

But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints (Eph 5:3)

All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household (Phil 4:22)

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

A few other quotes from the RSV CE…

But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem. (Acts 9:13)

Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda. (Acts 9:32)

Contribute to the needs of the saints (Rm 12:13)

At present, however, I am going to Jerusalem with aid for the saints. (Rm: 15:25)

that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her … (Rm 16:2)

As in all the churches of the saints (1 Cor 14:33)

Now I urge you, brethern, you know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints (1 Cor 16:15)

begging us earnestly for the favour of taking part in the relief of the saints (2 Cor 8:4)

All the saints greet you. (2 Cor 13:13)

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are also faithful in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:1)

For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints (Eph 1:15)

To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph 3:8)

But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints (Eph 5:3)

All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar’s household (Phil 4:22)

Thank you for trying to help me understand this. It’s not perfectly clear to me, but I think you’ve helped me make a little progress. The last thing that gets me is this:

Because a Christian can fall into mortal sin, it seems that the word Christian and saint cannot be synonymous. In other words, all saints are Christians, but all Christians are not saints.

 

[Dorothy]

Thank you for trying to help me understand this. It’s not perfectly clear to me, but I think you’ve helped me make a little progress. The last thing that gets me is this:

Because a Christian can fall into mortal sin, it seems that the word Christian and saint cannot be synonymous. In other words, all saints are Christians, but all Christians are not saints.

Does this explain it better? We followers of Jesus are a work in progress. The Lord is still working on me to draw closer to him and be more and more like him. It takes a while for Him to chip away at all the ways in which I am not in His likeness as yet.

The writings of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross give a picture of the journey to holiness. St. Teresa writes in the “Interior Castle” about the seven stages a soul goes through until he reaches what we call “Spiritual Marriage”. Another way of saying that is heroic virtue, or as St. Paul says it in Galatians 2:20 “It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me”.

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for trying to help me understand this. It’s not perfectly clear to me, but I think you’ve helped me make a little progress. The last thing that gets me is this:

Because a Christian can fall into mortal sin, it seems that the word Christian and saint cannot be synonymous. In other words, all saints are Christians, but all Christians are not saints.

Christians are saints. But Yes some can become sinners (in the mortal sin sense of being in a state of sin…at least for a time…but they are still marked …it is not that they go back to not being Christians…they are not living as Christians …they are not effectively Christians at that moment…but they are still marked as Christians…still set apart for Christ…but yes at that moment they are not holy in the sense of being in a state of grace )

It is an UNNATURAL state for a Christian to not be in the state of grace… it is unnatural for us sons in the Son to commit mortal sin. Of course it can happen…but we should quickly return to Christ!

Remember saint is used in different ways…but all are valid.

 

[Bookcat]

Here are some great readings on the reality of Baptism:

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ~ Galatians 3:27

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. ~ 2 Corinthians 5:17

The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ. ~ Catechism of the Catholic Church 1279

Baptism… is also more than a simple washing, more than a kind of purification and beautification of the soul. It is truly death and resurrection, rebirth, transformation to a new life.
~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2006

The early Church described Baptism as fotismos, as the Sacrament of illumination, as a communication of light, and linked it inseparably with the resurrection of Christ. In Baptism, God says to the candidate: “Let there be light!” The candidate is brought into the light of Christ. Christ now divides the light from the darkness. In him we recognize what is true and what is false, what is radiance and what is darkness.
~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2009

This is the reality of Baptism: he, the Risen One, comes; he comes to you and joins his life with yours, drawing you into the open fire of his love.
~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2008

 

[Bookcat]

Jesus descended for us into the dark waters of death. But through his blood, so the Letter to the Hebrews tells us, he was brought back from death: his love united itself to the Father’s love, and thus from the abyss of death he was able to rise to life. Now he raises us from the waters of death to true life. This is exactly what happens in Baptism: he draws us towards himself, he draws us into true life. He leads us through the often murky sea of history, where we are frequently in danger of sinking amid all the confusion and perils. In Baptism he takes us, as it were, by the hand, he leads us along the path that passes through the Red Sea of this life and introduces us to everlasting life, the true and upright life. Let us grasp his hand firmly! Whatever may happen, whatever may befall us, let us not lose hold of his hand! Let us walk along the path that leads to life. ~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2008

In this sense it is true that anyone who does not know God, even though he may entertain all kinds of hopes, is ultimately without hope, without the great hope that sustains the whole of life (cf. Eph 2:12). Man’s great, true hope which holds firm in spite of all disappointments can only be God—God who has loved us and who continues to love us “to the end,” until all “is accomplished” (cf. Jn 13:1 and 19:30). Whoever is moved by love begins to perceive what “life” really is. He begins to perceive the meaning of the word of hope that we encountered in the Baptismal Rite: from faith I await “eternal life”—the true life which, whole and unthreatened, in all its fullness, is simply life. Jesus, who said that he had come so that we might have life and have it in its fullness, in abundance (cf. Jn 10:10), has also explained to us what “life” means: “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3). Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves: it is a relationship. And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. Then we “live”.
~ Pope Benedict XVI On Christian Hope (Spe Salvi) 27

In Baptism we give ourselves over to Christ – he takes us unto himself, so that we no longer live for ourselves, but through him, with him and in him; so that we live with him and thus for others. In Baptism we surrender ourselves, we place our lives in his hands, and so we can say with Saint Paul, “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me ~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2007