What is a "scutiny"?

[SuscipeMeDomine]

When you state that the sacrament of Baptism “removes” (“Any other sin they have committed throughout their lives.”)
Does that include mortal sins ? " murder, rape, incest, and a long list of others ?
No disrespect but I certainly didn’t think that converts could have the slates of their souls washed clean and excused so easily. Never have I once heard that Baptism washes away (“all”) sins. Perhaps benedictgal you could supply official quotes from Canon Law or the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the complete absolution of “all” sins for R.C.I.A. converts who have never received the Sacrament of Penance.

From the Catechism:

1263
By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. Source]

 

[nomie]

No disrespect but I certainly didn’t think that converts could have the slates of their souls washed clean and excused so easily.

What do you mean by so easily? While I haven’t committed any of the mortal sins you mentioned, I have been preparing for my baptism for the past year by attending classes, doing research, attending retreats, going through several rites, dissmissals from mass for several months and lots of prayer. I am even preparing a speech I have to make to my parish on Good Friday. There are other people on this board who have to take 2 or 3 years to make their baptism. My own husband jokes that he got a “free ride” by being baptised as a baby. Is not forgiveness of all sins one of the graces that come with baptism?

 

[centurionguard]

I’m not disputing what some here are saying about R.C.I.A. converts having a most sincere contrite heart upon wanting to join the Catholic Church and partake fully in all the beautiful sacraments of the Church. I have read in many Orthodox catholic writings that R.C.I.A. converts often make a better Catholic than some catholics who are reared from childhood. That is an unfortunate fact for those Catholics who were baptized in their childhood. I grew up in the latter 1950’s and was baptized two weeks after I was born by my beloved parents who sacramentally stood in on my behalf. Growing up as a devoted Catholic, it wasn’t until I was well into my adult years that I began to appreciate and understand the full sacramental meaning of Baptism and strive to live it each and every day.
As a kid after Baptism, NO Catholic enjoyed the Sacramental privilege of Holy Communion or Confirmation until first and foremost having received the sacrament of Penance and realizing the full gravity of what forgiveness was all about in front of a Holy Priest who stood as (“and who is”) a representative of Jesus Christ who hears our sins. Today in the Church of all the seven sacraments, Penance “is” or “has become” on the bottom of the list in so many parishes. Why ? The Clergy are partly to blame for not exercising the fruits of this sacrament from the pulpit more often than is presently evident.
The laity takes the other half of the blame through the sin of pride of avoiding the sacrament of Penance altogether because it implies fervent contrition and humility.
Finally; I will add that (not “all” sins) confessed to a priest even with absolution receive complete removal of the stain from ones soul because there is still another debt to be paid for insulting God Himself. Which is why many souls who have lived an upright life and who are fortunate enough go into Purgatory when their human lives have ended in this world.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I’m not disputing what some here are saying about R.C.I.A. converts having a most sincere contrite heart upon wanting to join the Catholic Church and partake fully in all the beautiful sacraments of the Church. I have read in many Orthodox catholic writings that R.C.I.A. converts often make a better Catholic than some catholics who are reared from childhood. . . …

A Catholic can obtain the same results by being an RCIA sponsor and attending all the meetings with their catechumen.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The reason why these three sacraments ( Baptism, Communion, and Confirmation ) are “often” bundled into a thrice sacramental hodge-podge for R.C.I.A. candidates are for reasons of (“expedience”) only. How often do you see adult R.C.I.A. candidates receive the sacrament of confirmation at our parish communities traditionally dispensed by a Bishop ?

Canon Law requires that an adult (over 8-9 years old) be Confirmed and receive Holy Communion at the same time that they are Baptized.

Adults are normally only Baptized at the Easter Vigil.

Already Baptized Adults can be received at any time and do not need to receive Confirmation and and Holy Communion together. A person could wait for the Bishop to visit the area or go to the Bishop for Confirmation.

 

[benedictgal]

When you state that the sacrament of Baptism “removes” (“Any other sin they have committed throughout their lives.”)
Does that include mortal sins ? " murder, rape, incest, and a long list of others ?
No disrespect but I certainly didn’t think that converts could have the slates of their souls washed clean and excused so easily. Never have I once heard that Baptism washes away (“all”) sins. Perhaps benedictgal you could supply official quotes from Canon Law or the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the complete absolution of “all” sins for R.C.I.A. converts who have never received the Sacrament of Penance.

Well, let’s see. St. Paul approved of the martyrdom of St. Stephen, was on his way to round up Christians for persecution and possible death and a host of other things until he was literally struck by the light. He was baptized and that removed his sins.

What you may not understand is that, unlike infant baptism, which removes the stain of original sin, the baptism that adults receive, which is the same thing, removes sin completely. Unfortunately, sin will creep its way back into a person’s life and thus the need for sacramental confession. However, in the case of the Elect, they are going to receive the rest of the Sacraments in immediate succession. What chance are they going to have to sin before they complete the Sacraments of Initiation, especially if such sins were to be grave?

From the Catechism:

• I. ONE BAPTISM FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS

977 **Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."521 Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."522

978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . .** Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil "523

Here is another reference:

Baptism in the Church

1226 From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "**Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 **Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family."28

…1232 The second Vatican Council restored for the Latin Church "the catechumenate for adults, comprising several distinct steps."34 The rites for these stages are to be found in the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults (RCIA).35 The Council also gives permission that: "In mission countries, in addition to what is furnished by the Christian tradition, those elements of initiation rites may be admitted which are already in use among some peoples insofar as they can be adapted to the Christian ritual."36

1233 Today in all the rites, Latin and Eastern, the Christian initiation of adults begins with their entry into the catechumenate and reaches its culmination in a single celebration of the three sacraments of initiation: Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist.37 In the Eastern rites the Christian initiation of infants also begins with Baptism followed immediately by Confirmation and the Eucharist, while in the Roman rite it is followed by years of catechesis before being completed later by Confirmation and the Eucharist, the summit of their Christian initiation.38

…For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."67 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."68

I hope these references clear up any misunderstandings you may have regarding what Baptism does (at least as far as the Elect are concerned).

 

[Lujack]

I’m not disputing what some here are saying about R.C.I.A. converts having a most sincere contrite heart upon wanting to join the Catholic Church and partake fully in all the beautiful sacraments of the Church. I have read in many Orthodox catholic writings that R.C.I.A. converts often make a better Catholic than some catholics who are reared from childhood. That is an unfortunate fact for those Catholics who were baptized in their childhood. I grew up in the latter 1950’s and was baptized two weeks after I was born by my beloved parents who sacramentally stood in on my behalf. Growing up as a devoted Catholic, it wasn’t until I was well into my adult years that I began to appreciate and understand the full sacramental meaning of Baptism and strive to live it each and every day.
As a kid after Baptism, NO Catholic enjoyed the Sacramental privilege of Holy Communion or Confirmation until first and foremost having received the sacrament of Penance and realizing the full gravity of what forgiveness was all about in front of a Holy Priest who stood as (“and who is”) a representative of Jesus Christ who hears our sins. Today in the Church of all the seven sacraments, Penance “is” or “has become” on the bottom of the list in so many parishes. Why ? The Clergy are partly to blame for not exercising the fruits of this sacrament from the pulpit more often than is presently evident.
The laity takes the other half of the blame through the sin of pride of avoiding the sacrament of Penance altogether because it implies fervent contrition and humility.
Finally; I will add that (not “all” sins) confessed to a priest even with absolution receive complete removal of the stain from ones soul because there is still another debt to be paid for insulting God Himself. Which is why many souls who have lived an upright life and who are fortunate enough go into Purgatory when their human lives have ended in this world.

Going to Communion immediately after baptism is no different than going to Communion immediately after confession. The reason we have been baptized as infants have to go to confession first is that it has been at least five years since our baptism, so we’ve picked up five years of sins. In terms of fitness to receive for communion, baptism has the same effect as confession; requiring sacramental confession of the newly baptized would be as redundant as confessing to one priest, crossing the room, and confessing to the other one.

 

[Black_Dog]

So reading all of this not only is my priest wrong in asserting that the scrutinies do away with the need for Confession but that as a baptised Candidate I shouldnt even be partaking in them in the first place

 

[benedictgal]

So reading all of this not only is my priest wrong in asserting that the scrutinies do away with the need for Confession but that as a baptised Candidate I shouldnt even be partaking in them in the first place

The scrutinies are meant only for the Elect, that is to say those who will be Baptized into the Church. Baptism for adults removes all sin, original and that which one fully consented to committing. You are already Baptized, from the looks of it. You will be welcomed into Full Communion at the Easter Vigil. Although I do not have the Rite in front of me, you probably would have to go to Confession, but, I am not sure. Perhaps someone with the Rite in front of them can verify this.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The scrutinies are meant only for the Elect, that is to say those who will be Baptized into the Church. Baptism for adults removes all sin, original and that which one fully consented to committing. You are already Baptized, from the looks of it. You will be welcomed into Full Communion at the Easter Vigil. Although I do not have the Rite in front of me, you probably would have to go to Confession, but, I am not sure. Perhaps someone with the Rite in front of them can verify this.

You are correct.

 

[centurionguard]

The scrutinies are meant only for the Elect, that is to say those who will be Baptized into the Church. Baptism for adults removes all sin, original and that which one fully consented to committing. You are already Baptized, from the looks of it. You will be welcomed into Full Communion at the Easter Vigil. Although I do not have the Rite in front of me, you probably would have to go to Confession, but, I am not sure. Perhaps someone with the Rite in front of them can verify this.

Curious; and I’m not being indignant here. But how does one who is amongst the R.C.I.A. Elect go into a confessional with a priest and sacramentally receive absolution when he has never officially received the sacrament of Reconciliation (Penance). Again I must reiterate I am not trying to sound off as being disrespectful. My utter confusion stems from witnessing many R.C.I.A. converts and many who are friends who have never officially received the sacrament of Reconciliation even years after they were indoctrinated into the Catholic Church. Should I have concerns with these matters happening in the Church.
I never grew up seeing this kind of neglect in the Church until the last three years.
I have addressed this with a diocesan priest in the French Deanery who happens to come from the old seminary Pre-Vatican II. His reply to me…Don’t try to make sense of it.
All I can say that this type of sacramental abuse or the lack of upholding the sacrament of Penance bothers me a great deal. So what do I do ? Shut my mouth and go with the flow ?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

We instruct the candidates, those previously baptized, to go to confession as soon as we have completed the instruction for it - nature of sin, types of sin, commandments and what are violations of each etc. They are urged to make an appointment with one of the priests so he can guide them through their first confession.

We ask those who are baptized at the Vigil to go to confession at least once before Pentecost , our last meeting, so any questions or problems can be discussed. They usually just go to one of the regularly scheduled times.

Note that we can only recommend what we think will work best. It is the person’s choice as to how and when they go.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Curious; and I’m not being indignant here. But how does one who is amongst the R.C.I.A. Elect go into a confessional with a priest and sacramentally receive absolution when he has never officially received the sacrament of Reconciliation (Penance). Again I must reiterate I am not trying to sound off as being disrespectful. My utter confusion stems from witnessing many R.C.I.A. converts and many who are friends who have never officially received the sacrament of Reconciliation even years after they were indoctrinated into the Catholic Church. Should I have concerns with these matters happening in the Church.
I never grew up seeing this kind of neglect in the Church until the last three years.
I have addressed this with a diocesan priest in the French Deanery who happens to come from the old seminary Pre-Vatican II. His reply to me…Don’t try to make sense of it.
All I can say that this type of sacramental abuse or the lack of upholding the sacrament of Penance bothers me a great deal. So what do I do ? Shut my mouth and go with the flow ?

An Elect a person who is Baptized at the Easter Vigil is Catechized after Baptism during one of the weeks of Mystogogical Catechesis (the 8 weeks after Easter) on the Sacrament of Reconciliation and how to go to Confession.

A person who is a Candidate (already Baptized) is Catechized about the importance of being in a State of Grace during the final weeks before they are received into the Church and given the opportunity to receive this Sacrament. No record of this is kept in any way.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Curious; and I’m not being indignant here. But how does one who is amongst the R.C.I.A. Elect go into a confessional with a priest and sacramentally receive absolution when he has never officially received the sacrament of Reconciliation (Penance). Again I must reiterate I am not trying to sound off as being disrespectful. My utter confusion stems from witnessing many R.C.I.A. converts and many who are friends who have never officially received the sacrament of Reconciliation even years after they were indoctrinated into the Catholic Church. Should I have concerns with these matters happening in the Church.
I never grew up seeing this kind of neglect in the Church until the last three years.
I have addressed this with a diocesan priest in the French Deanery who happens to come from the old seminary Pre-Vatican II. His reply to me…Don’t try to make sense of it.
All I can say that this type of sacramental abuse or the lack of upholding the sacrament of Penance bothers me a great deal. So what do I do ? Shut my mouth and go with the flow ?

An Elect a person who is Baptized at the Easter Vigil is Catechized after Baptism during one of the weeks of Mystogogical Catechesis (the 8 weeks after Easter) on the Sacrament of Reconciliation and how to go to Confession.

A person who is a Candidate (already Baptized) is Catechized about the importance of being in a State of Grace during the final weeks before they are received into the Church and given the opportunity to receive this Sacrament. No record of this is kept in any way.

 

[centurionguard]

An Elect a person who is Baptized at the Easter Vigil is Catechized after Baptism during one of the weeks of Mystogogical Catechesis (the 8 weeks after Easter) on the Sacrament of Reconciliation and how to go to Confession.

A person who is a Candidate (already Baptized) is Catechized about the importance of being in a State of Grace during the final weeks before they are received into the Church and given the opportunity to receive this Sacrament. No record of this is kept in any way.

Brother Rich;

The last part of your reply begs me to ascertain why no records of the laity having received sacraments are officially kept in parish files. My parish maintains all files from it’s parishioners who have received sacraments.Some of which surprisingly go back as far as the late 1800’s which I have seen personally in it’s archives. Due to the fact that the sacrament of Reconciliation (Penance) seems inordinately placed at the bottom of the list in a number of Dioceses, it’s always a joy to me when I see priests who do make the extended effort of bringing out the immeasurable importance of this sacramental grace made available to all Catholics. Indeed; without the Sacrament of Penance it would be infectiously difficult for any catholic to truly appreciate the spiritual richness of all the other sacraments.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

The last part of your reply begs me to ascertain why no records of the laity having received sacraments are officially kept in parish files.

Why do you think that no records are kept?

Whether it’s a baby being baptized or an adult, the records are started and maintained at the parish where the baptism takes place. These are added to later. When someone is being married, for example, they obtain a copy of their baptismal certificate where it would show not only that they’ve received the sacraments of initiation, but would also show that they have not received the sacrament of matrimony.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

The last part of your reply begs me to ascertain why no records of the laity having received sacraments are officially kept in parish files.

Parishes keep records of the sacraments of initiation and vocation. Whether a baby or an adult is being baptized, that information will be entered and maintained. Later, if the person is being married, for example, they will obtain a copy of their baptismal certificate both to show that they have received the sacraments of initiation and to show that they have not received the sacrament of matrimony.

However, parishes do not maintain records of the sacraments of healing.