What is a Traditionalist - A Well Written Blog Post

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I understand what you mean. Everything in the EF is very iconic. I don’t mean that in the cliche way, I mean that very literally. The EF is highly iconic in the sense that everything is very deliberate. There is a certain amount of liturgical dance, so to speak, that isn’t present in the OF. Take, in the EF, the Gospel and epistle sides of the altar. Or the altar rail, symbolizing the chasm between earth and heaven (of course, altar rails are present in some OF-only churches, but generally not many, and are usually disused anyway). Or the mandatory levels of singing (ferial tone, solemn tone, more solemn tone). Or the kisses whenever a bishop hands over his crosier. Or when only a bishop sits at the throne but other (like auxiliary) bishops must use a faldstool even if he is celebrant. Or the incensation rubrics of swinging the censer around the offerings rather than laterally over them. Everything has its proper place, and it doesn’t come out of its proper place. It is all very clear and ordered where things belong, and everything has its own peculiarities. It is very visual. You see what is happening, therefore you know what is happening.

The OF generally doesn’t have these things. Sure, usually it’s in the vernacular and people hear what is being said, but there aren’t these visual “helpers,” so to speak, as in the EF. It’s very bland visually. Everything is incensed the same way, everything sounds the same, everything looks the same. Yes, it’s easy to determine when the Gospel is being read versus the epistle, or when the offerings are being incensed versus the crucifix, but it isn’t iconic. It’s just, “Oh, just something else the priest is doing.” There’s not as much visual magic or flavor, IMO.

There is the argument that all these “accretions,” as some put it, found their way into the liturgical books as a way to help the faithful know what is going on in a certain moment due to the fact that the mass was nearly always in Latin. I can buy that. However, I don’t think it’s worth it to have thrown these iconic things away just because the OF is usually in the vernacular. I, for example, do not learn by hearing. I am a visual learner. Some people might find it odd, but I learned more about the OF by going to EF masses than by being present at OF masses, just because the EF generally places that much more emphasis on the visual, on the iconic, than the OF does. There are all these little triggers that I see at EF masses that aren’t present at OF masses. These things are very conducive to a layman’s mind, as they are very deliberate actions. Laymen usually need more of the iconic to understand than trained religious do. In a way, the complex is actually simpler than the simple, IMO. Maybe my argument isn’t the best as it’s presented, but meh. Tiny cues make all the difference to visual learners. EF masses tend to be more of an “experience” than do OF masses, IMO.
I do appreciate your typing up that response to my question - very lucid. I’m not patronizing here. I truly appreciate that you typed all that and I read your post three times.

I am actually more interested in clarity, in understanding each other clearly, more than I am in agreeing or winning someone over to my side.

So that I understand, you are saying that those who are not trained religious don’t need the teachig that the icons, motions and rituals bring? Or to put it another way, that the laity will better understand the Mass through the icons and visual/auditory cues?

Would it be correct to say that the more educated about theology, spirituality, doctrine and things of God (in general) one is, the less one needs those auditory and visual “Helpers”?

I wonder if we don’t see a religious habit and automatically assume that someone is highly trained in theology and such. I know a guy who took early retirement at 47 to become a monk. I think he was an accountant, and the monastery is teaching him Lectio Devina, yes, but he is not going to be a theologian. His main job is to learn how to make fudge. His name is Mark and you can see a picture of him here.

By the way (because it wouldn’t be CAF if we didn’t try to prove each other wrong ;)), the priest at my Church, when he uses incense in the OF, always swings the thurible around the chalice and paten in a circle. 😛

-Tim-
 
I do appreciate your typing up that response to my question - very lucid. I’m not patronizing here. I truly appreciate that you typed all that and I read your post three times.

I am actually more interested in clarity, in understanding each other clearly, more than I am in agreeing or winning someone over to my side.

So that I understand, you are saying that those who are not trained religious don’t need the teachig that the icons, motions and rituals bring? Or to put it another way, that the laity will better understand the Mass through the icons and visual/auditory cues?

Would it be correct to say that the more educated about theology, spirituality, doctrine and things of God (in general) one is, the less one needs those auditory and visual “Helpers”?

I wonder if we don’t see a religious habit and automatically assume that someone is highly trained in theology and such. I know a guy who took early retirement at 47 to become a monk. I think he was an accountant, and the monastery is teaching him Lectio Devina, yes, but he is not going to be a theologian. His main job is to learn how to make fudge. His name is Mark and you can see a picture of him here.

By the way (because it wouldn’t be CAF if we didn’t try to prove each other wrong ;)), the priest at my Church, when he uses incense in the OF, always swings the thurible around the chalice and paten in a circle. 😛

-Tim-
Basically, yes, yes, yes, yes, etc. Since the laity is less trained in the realm of theology and liturgy, the laity need more of an experience in mass to be able to understand it in the way it is intended to be understood. I am not calling the laity dumb (I am a layman myself), but that just makes sense. I don’t know, maybe the Consilium was anticipating a huge increase in catechesis among the laity after the Council, so they figured a less iconic mass wouldn’t hurt. But any way you look at it, IMO, the “less complex is better” attitude has failed as far as parish masses go.

The EF is a teaching tool in itself, if you will. It flows, and in that flow, it exemplifies its component parts in a way that is very easy to understand. The OF isn’t as complex, even though it consists of generally the same parts as the EF, and so it isn’t as good of a teaching tool, IMO. It’s sort of like traditional art versus modern art. Traditional art is very evocative in itself, and usually any adult can understand its symbols clearly, while simple modern art is, ironically, haughtier and more inaccessible because it is simpler. It has to be explained away, and only those in the know (like the trained religious) can understand it easily.

This is a dumb example, but if you will: let’s say hypothetically our bishops don’t wear mitres anymore. They dress like any other priest. How in God’s name is the laity supposed to know to address him as “Your Excellency” or “Bishop” and not “Father?” Well, let’s say some bright guy at the Vatican decides that all bishops are going to wear little stickers on their chasubles that say, “I am a bishop,” in tiny little letters near the hem almost on the lining. Um, okay… can you say “TACKY,” or, “Isn’t there a better way to do this?” Well, yes, in fact, there is! And it’s rooted right in Catholic tradition! It’s called a “mitre!” GOD FORBID THOSE UN-EGALITARIAN THINGS! Silly, but I think the same idea can be applied to the mass “reforms.” Even if it wasn’t intended, the OF mass presumes a more well-informed, well-catechized laity.

This really comes down to philosophy.
 
If you’re pointing at me you clearly misread me.

“Some OF Masses are solemn, therefore most OF Masses can be.”

“There have been changes in the past, including pre-Vatican II (ref: the Roman Breviary). Not all of them were good. There will be changes in the future. Not all of them will be bad. The only constant we can depend on is change, the only variable will be the rate of change.”

“I have found instances where the historical record contradicts your argument, therefore you may want to re-examine your hypothesis”.
Point out where in the historical record a Mass was invented on the spot and the communal meal emphasised over the sacrificial aspect.

I can think of two instances: The Last Supper and the Protestant Reformation.

The massive changes since 1920 mean that more cannot reasonably be denied. A bishop can now have quite inventive masses in his diocese and the only brake on his creativity is a demographic one; he may go to his reward, ageing congregations may not be replaced and the novelty dies out. Otherwise, Sacrosanctum Consilium allows this invention, collegiality helps it, the creation of a New Mass sets the precedent.

Tradtionalists now see a break in the treeline and are making for it but we’re not out of the woods yet.
 
The orders and congregations are so intrinsically entwined with the Church that you can’t speak of a clear delineation between parish tradition and the traditions and charisms of the orders.
Y’know, that sort of talk sounds great but in truth they are making it up as they go along.

I know of Franciscans and Augustinians who have added little touches like wishing people ‘Happy Birthday’ before the dismissal or self communication by coeliacs from the chalice.

These are local orders to me, not ones I’ve just heard about.

Another 40 years of this and I think we know where this could go. It simply has to stop; either corrected from on high or just die off, possibly taking the local order with it, if they don’t get vocations.
 
Y’know, that sort of talk sounds great but in truth they are making it up as they go along.

I know of Franciscans and Augustinians who have added little touches like wishing people ‘Happy Birthday’ before the dismissal or self communication by coeliacs from the chalice.

These are local orders to me, not ones I’ve just heard about.

Another 40 years of this and I think we know where this could go. It simply has to stop; either corrected from on high or just die off, possibly taking the local order with it, if they don’t get vocations.
And I will point out the Benedictines of the Solesmes congregation who are very rigorous with the OF liturgy so that in reality it’s not the form or the Mass but the discipline. You could eliminate the issue without changing the form simply by writing tighter rubrics, and enforcing them.
 
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COSED
 
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