What is a witch, exactly?

[mrejante]

I am curious as to why we haven’t heard from one of the apologists on this question. There are many interesting points raised. I’ve gone over the responses and can’t find one from a Catholic Answers apologist. Did I just miss it? Or are they ignoring this question?

 

[Gigmaster]

The Hebrews of that time, or even in the New Testament era would’ve had no knowledge of the Ancient Druids and Celts, which is where our modern idea of witchraft originated, so clearly, the biblical verses could not be refferring to them. Likewise, it obviously was not meant to refer to someone who caimed to have the power of prophecy, since most true prophets were revered throughout the Bible. And false prophets are not reffered to as witches anywhere in scripture.

Going on historical evidence, the scriptures aimed at ‘witches’ were obviously directed towards unauthorized practicioners of the Kaballah, especially the darker aspects of it. The Kaballah was greatly feared by the Jewish authorities, and the Sanhedrin, especially, strictly limited it’s use, and the teaching of it, only to authorized scholars and rabbis. In fact, at one point in their history, the practice of any part of the Kaballah was totally banned, with very strict penalties for those who tried. Even today, the Kabbalah is not very well understood outside of it’s practicioners. So, it would make perfect sense that scripture would condemn unauthorized practicioners as a danger to the public good.

The condemnation also undoubtably extended to pagan practioners of Black Magic, human sacrifice, curses, and the like, again, in the interests of the public good. Also included were probably Zoroastrianism, and similar beliefs.

This is just my opinion, after exhaustive research. As I said, to me at least, it makes perfect sense. Much more than simply a blanket definition.

Deus vobiscum

 

[mlchance]

The Hebrews of that time, or even in the New Testament era would’ve had no knowledge of the Ancient Druids and Celts…

True. They also would have no idea of the Kabbalah, which also didn’t exist in either era you mention-- Mark L. Chance.

 

[Bob4BVM]

When the definition of “witch” is nailed down in this thread, will you have to go out and kill them when you find them, as clearly, it is commanded by god to do?

Yes BearClaw, your quote from your friend Arnold may be truer than you think…
"All the biblical miracles will at last disappear with the progress of science. – Matthew Arnold "
…in a mushroom cloud .

+Peace,
Bob

 

[sunsetshiner]

Jesus warns of “wolves in sheeps clothing”
The difference between prophecy in Christian churches and the swathes of things like clairvoyants,mediums and tarot readings is something I long puzzled on for a reason, having encountered dubious foretellings and advices in my life back a couple of decades with both prophecy in a church and someone who professed to be both a clairvoyant and Christian. It seems to be correct that someone who earns their living by foretelling is not in line with scriptural teachings. Even in scripture there were false prophets which again the New Testament warns of , and these days i think witches are probably in that grouping.
There is something more often mentioned in RC books than anglican books that I have found and that is something called “discernment of spirits”, and this seems to be the subject to fathom in ascertaing the answer to the question, and someone gave me a part verse “walk by faith and not by sight”. St Paul said “test the spirits to see whether they are of God”. You would have to ask someone qualified on that,
regards.

 

[Gigmaster]

I used a poor choice of words for convienience. My apologies. You are correct. The Jewish Mysticism that I am reffering to was not officialy called the Kaballah until around the 12th Century AD. But the traditions date all the way back to Melchizedek. Some believe they go back even farther.

My point was that the condemnation in scripture is not aimed at what we consider withcraft in the modern world, but at practicioners of Black Magic, and other mysticisms that were considered dangerous, and/or decietful. I would think that in the modern world, the scripture would apply to Satanic worship, voodoo, santeria, and others that involve possible harm to it’s members, and/or victims.

And I don’t believe the term “suffer a witch to live…” means to take their life literally, because scripture clearly forbids that except in the most extreme cases of self-preservation. I believe it means to not allow them to live, and practice in your community. It would be like if an adult bookstore opened up next-door to you. As a member of the community, you’d be perfectly justified in taking steps (within the law) to force them to move somewhere else for the protection of the other residents. I believe this is what that line of scripture means. In other words: Keep your neighborhoods clean and wholesome, as much as possible.

Deus vobiscum

True. They also would have no idea of the Kabbalah, which also didn’t exist in either era you mention-- Mark L. Chance.

 

[dandesmommie]

What is a witch, exactly?

It depends on who you are talking to and when.

Now days it’s a term one woman usually calls another who has been discovered in an adulterous affair with their husband or boyfriend who could not possibly be of interest to him unless she had bewitched him or cast some spell that she was herself unable to successfully cast through her own charms.

– just kidding
James

 

[Eagle75]

A book was written around the 15th Century which might be of some use to you in this question.

Malleolus Maleficarum

It was approved by the Catholic Church at the time for the identification and prosecution of those acused of being a Witch/Wizard. It does include a Papal Bull of Pope Innocent VIII. I personally have used this book for research (History Major and a very interesting Paper) and can say with certainty that it is very detailed, and covers most aspects pertaining to the identification and what Witches/Wizards can do. It also goes into some detail as to how they are allowed to exist, as well as how to deal with them in a legal manner.

Hope this helps!

 

[jewells17]

Read the personal testimony of Marcia at W W W. C H R I S T I A N A N S W E R S F O R T H E N E W A G E. O R G her jouney out of witchcraft is miraculous and make sure to check out all the places she goes to speak publicly about it. When you get to her web page go straight to her personal story and share it with others. She is a wonderful soul.

 

[Axion]

The Leviticus prohibitions against things like eating pork and stoning adulterers are of course, superceded in Christianity by the NT.

The “west Wing” quote is another cheap bit of atheist spin.

 

[jewells17]

Again…that website is www.christiananswersforthenewage.org check out Marcias story!

 

[Axion]

A book was written around the 15th Century which might be of some use to you in this question.

Malleolus Maleficarum

It was approved by the Catholic Church at the time for the identification and prosecution of those acused of being a Witch/Wizard. It does include a Papal Bull of Pope Innocent VIII. I personally have used this book for research (History Major and a very interesting Paper) and can say with certainty that it is very detailed, and covers most aspects pertaining to the identification and what Witches/Wizards can do. It also goes into some detail as to how they are allowed to exist, as well as how to deal with them in a legal manner.

Hope this helps!

No. The Malleus maleficarum was never “approved by the Church”. That’s another of Dan Brown’s many lies from the Da Vinci Code. It was written by two rogue inquisitors who forged a papal approval for it and pasted it in to the book. It was not used by the Church and certainly not the Inquisition - who largely considered witchcraft scares to be just that. The MM and other such books were largely used by secular witch-hunters

On the subject of witchcraft itself, the biblical condemnation is identical to those against sorcery, necromancy, paganism and the practice of black magic. These are the things that condemnations against “witchcraft” refer to.

 

[budgie2]

A book was written around the 15th Century which might be of some use to you in this question.

Malleolus Maleficarum

It was approved by the Catholic Church at the time for the identification and prosecution of those acused of being a Witch/Wizard. It does include a Papal Bull of Pope Innocent VIII. I personally have used this book for research (History Major and a very interesting Paper) and can say with certainty that it is very detailed, and covers most aspects pertaining to the identification and what Witches/Wizards can do. It also goes into some detail as to how they are allowed to exist, as well as how to deal with them in a legal manner.

Hope this helps!

Some people expect all witches to turn up in black hats and carry broomsticks. The only true way to tell whether or not a person is a witch is to throw them in the river and see if they sink or float. Do people that want to ban Halloween consider the fact that their is witchcraft in disguise in their community? Just a thought.

 

[William_inquire]

Why is this passage inspired even? Instructing people to kill other people simply because they believe differently is troublesome to me.

I am just looking at some of the comments posted by others… It seems to me that the problem lies in what sorcerers do. What you should be investigating is the questions: what is so dangerous about the occult? What do witches and sorcerers do? I am not so sure that the idea is as simple as believing that there are tree spirits etc. Were it that simple, it would be contrary to the idea of trying to save unbelievers.

I cannot give you a definitive example, but I can tell you a few things that I know. People that mess around with occult powers are inviting evil spirits into their lives. This is a danger that exceeds our ability to understand. To start trying to figure out what demons did to their prisoners, look at the Bible and how they did things to various people. What was Jesus’s reaction to those that were posessed and to the demons? Think about the girl in ACTS that was going around doing fortune telling for her masters. What was her life like? Why did the demons say what they said ?

I had heard that sorcery was based on becoming intoxicated so that a person could become a medium for an evil spirit to do various things. My guess is that in this intoxicated state a person’s concious was subdued to a point where they would (perhaps could ) not resist. I have heard from more than one source that some people who are involved in certain Occult practices sacrifice humans. This is murder, plain and simple.

A more substantial example of Occult involvement being connected with evil behavior is Hitler. It is my understanding that he took various items of Occult nature, especially ancient weapons which were held to have magical powers. Similarly there were people who knew Adolph and said that sometimes he said things , and then he appeared to have a look about him as if he were hearing these things for the first time. Whatever witchcraft is or was, it certainly is not described by the word benign.

I apologize that it has been so long that I cannot name sources.

 

[jewells17]

William…great posting. Hope you got a chance to look at Marcias website www.christiananswersforthenewage.org it’s worh it to check it out. The New Age is the smoke screen for those playing with the occult these days and we need to pray keep praying for them so they can stop “raising hell”…so to speak!

 

[William_inquire]

The marcia’s story website is really good… I did read it after coming to this blog. I looked at all the new age stuff in that site and compared it to what I know about post modernism… WOW !!!

The main thing that I picked up in my short visit. Some of what Witches / Astrologers believe in

1. Multiple truths
2. a “Dark Side” that isn’t bad … just the other side of good . Kind of like Yin Yang dualism
   (or in otherwords evil isn’t really necessarily evil)
3. Making what you visualize/ imagine to change what is… IE putting your Will to change reality.

The story that Marcia recounts is horrifying in the insidiously subtle undermining of what is truth and not , what is evil or not , at the centering of the self as the definition (along with subjective experience) of reality.

It has so much to do with why we have great difficulty with telling others that they have sinned and why they need Jesus. Now that I have just written that I could see why this religion is not like other religions in its unique way of denying the gospel. It denies the need of the gospel.

 

[jewells17]

Hope all Catholics and Christians go to www.crossveil.org for a wonderful education about the occult and how playing with it can make a baptized Christian physically and mentally ill. One Catholic lady went to a Reiki healer and wore her rosary around her neck and under her blouse…as she always did. When the Reiki healer began her thing…the healers hands began to feel burned and she had to stop. This website is so good…check it out.

 

[nicollette]

This thread has been an interesting read. I’d love to see what one of the site apologists has to say about defining what a witch is.

The marcia’s story website is really good… I did read it after coming to this blog. I looked at all the new age stuff in that site and compared it to what I know about post modernism… WOW !!!

The main thing that I picked up in my short visit. Some of what Witches / Astrologers believe in

1. Multiple truths
2. a “Dark Side” that isn’t bad … just the other side of good . Kind of like Yin Yang dualism
   (or in otherwords evil isn’t really necessarily evil)
   3. Making what you visualize/ imagine to change what is… IE putting your Will to change reality.

William, I’m curious about one of the points you post about. Point number 3, “Making what you visualize/imagine to change what is. IE putting (do you mean using?) your Will to change reality.”.

This was something I was discussing with my dh. My sister is a neo-pagan and after discussing a bit about what she believed and what/how her “spells” and such worked she pretty much just chalked it up to the power of positive thinking. I’ve since read several books by Scott Cunningham and the like and they pretty much state that any kind of “magick” is a focused form of positive thinking. (It’s not that simple, of course, but it was the conclusion I was left with after reading them.)

My sister doesn’t really believe in a god at all but believes it’s possible to move energies(?) and such. Since there really isn’t a belief in a higher power she doesn’t call upon anything but she does use spell work as a form of focus to help her visualize. The more focus she puts towards her goal the easier it is for her to achieve it.

That’s just a brief re-cap of what she said, which also seemed in line with what I had read but my question is this. Is it wrong to use one’s Will to make changes?

According to her that is what she’s doing and so far I haven’t found a reason why that would be wrong but would love to see any discussion about it. I was taught a lot about the power of positive thinking while in counseling growing up and have to say that just thinking positive is the place to start for making even the simplest change in one’s life, so I suppose I’m a bit confused as to why some may think that point number 3 could be bad (not that anyone specifically stated on this thread that it was). I would be very curious to see if there would be a discussion to be had on this subject.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think that we need to be very careful in our definitions of what is witchcraft, the occult, etc. It’s not such a problem among Catholics, but fundamentalists seem to lose all perspective about this.

Paganism, for example, is not witchcraft. For the most part it is simply non-Christian religion. It may have certain practices or beliefs that are suspect, or it may not. Modern Wicca and neo-paganism aren’t much like witchcraft either.

Harry Potter is not witchcraft.

Now, Satanism, that is willingly aligning oneself to known dark and evil powers to have advantage over other people? That is a lot like witchcraft.

I think many neo-pagans take the whole spell thing to be a power-of-positive-thinking POV. It isn’t Christian - it places reality too much in the self, but it isn’t always immoral. It would depend on how it related to other people - if you are simply trying to focus your own will, but maintain respect for others, than there is likely no problem. If you are willing to over-ride the will of others, then it is more suspect.

So real magic is the attempt to bend others’ will and nature to ones own will. As such it may tend to want to work outside the natural order of things. Literary magic is totally different, and often actually represents the natural order of things.

As for “occult” practices - some are supposed to be real magic, and others aren’t. Tarot cards, for example, can be understood by the user as magic, or as a sort of psychological test.

 

[yablabo]

That is, according to Exodus 22:18, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”. But, what is a witch, exactly? Is it an old woman with attitude? An herbalist? An abortionist? Someone who practises modern day Wicca? If anyone knows what a “witch” is according to the Bible, please tell.

I think (my opinion) that a good definition of the word “witch” is a person who attempts to gain preternatural favor/power without being in a state of grace.

– Nicole