What is an appropriate response to one who left the church?

[Apryl]

There is a young man who grew up in the church. His father had been a Permanent Deacon. His grandfather was very VERY active in the church.

I spoke with him today, and he told me that he’s now in a Baptist church.

I was stunned, and although we were on the phone, I know he could tell I was taken aback.

I was stunned with myself: I like to think that I’m tolerant of other religions and I don’t do the, ‘My faith is better than yours’ or ‘If you wanted to be a REAL Christian, you’d be a Catholic’. I wanted to say, ‘Why aren’t you Catholic any more?’ and ‘How can you leave the Church?’

What should I have said? What should we say to one who leaves the Church?

I don’t want to push some one who is THINKING of leaving the Church the rest of the way out. I also don’t want to miss a last ditch moment to pull them back in.

Help!

 

[ConstantineTG]

It depends really. If they are very convicted with their faith, then what else can you say? You can’t force people into believing something they don’t believe in. Engaging them in a debate about why they should return to be Catholic is only proselytizing and would only foster ill feelings.

Don’t feel bad. During the time of Moses, God has done many wondrous miracles before the very eyes of the Israelites. And yet at every opportunity the fall into idolatry. If mind-numbing miracles can’t change people’s minds, I doubt debates will. Pray for the person instead and always in action show him what a good Catholic is all about.

 

[faithfully]

Don’t feel too bad. I was so sheltered from the existance of other religions, and that others really hate the Catholic Church, that WHEN I finally did come across this, I would be jaw dropping silenced. I am RARELY short on words.

I felt like someone just announced the earth is flat with absolute conviction. And I wanted to smack them upside the head? Hello??? Anyone in there?.. We’ve already proven this… LOL… I probably look at some people the way atheists look at anyone with any sort of faith. I just can’t believe they’d be so… well… stupid.

I suppose you can ask what turned him away. It’s worth finding out, and studying that area so that some day when you have a conversation again, you can point out some facts that he’s bound to not have known. I know I went through a period where I was just really annoyed with the leaders of our faith that although I never considered myself anything but Catholic, but did feel like “hey, these MEN are acting like morons…”

I know it’s crazy, but I was FLOORED when my FIL announced with absolute certaintly that Mary was not a Virgin… So blown away, I thought, I’m moving away from the window, as I’d like to NOT be struck by lightening when the bolt comes down for such a thing said. And then I was so stunned, I couldn’t even argue him. Other than to say, he’s not EVER allowed to say that in front of our children. I want them to respect him. But I’ll have to take him down if he tries to teach them otherwise.

Or perhaps the appropriate response is… “hmm, interesting.” I don’t know. It would depend on how close I was to this person. If it was a family member or my best friend I’d probably rush them with questions, and ask what kind of coolaid they’d been drinking… If it was an acquaintence… Well, heck, I’d probably not be on the phone with them anyway.

 

[faithfully]

I don’t want to push some one who is THINKING of leaving the Church the rest of the way out. I also don’t want to miss a last ditch moment to pull them back in.

Help!

Also, unless they are one breath away from death, I don’t think you’ve necessarily missed the last moment of opportunity… They will present themselves again if it’s in the cards… Best…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Leaving the Church is not always bad. Sometimes people take faith journeys, as I’d like to call them, and just figure out really what it is they believe in. Some find their way back, some don’t.

 

[cooterhein]

There is a young man who grew up in the church. His father had been a Permanent Deacon. His grandfather was very VERY active in the church.

I spoke with him today, and he told me that he’s now in a Baptist church.

I was stunned, and although we were on the phone, I know he could tell I was taken aback.

I was stunned with myself: I like to think that I’m tolerant of other religions and I don’t do the, ‘My faith is better than yours’ or ‘If you wanted to be a REAL Christian, you’d be a Catholic’. I wanted to say, ‘Why aren’t you Catholic any more?’ and ‘How can you leave the Church?’

What should I have said? What should we say to one who leaves the Church?

I don’t want to push some one who is THINKING of leaving the Church the rest of the way out. I also don’t want to miss a last ditch moment to pull them back in.

Help!

Well…I’ve never been a Catholic, but I hope I can provide a little perspective as one whose feet are nicely settled on the opposite side of the Tiber.

First, I hope that your assessment of his “spiritual state”- broadly speaking, an assessment of how he’s doing- consists of finding out things besides whether or not he’s attending a Catholic church.

Second, I would hope that you don’t assume that all Catholics who show up for the sacraments on a fairly consistent basis are automatically doing ok, and I would hope that you don’t assume that all non-Catholics who don’t show up for sacraments are automatically doing “not ok.”

Third, I hope you can come up with a set of parameters for “what constitutes an ok state” and ask him about it in a way that’s caring and without being (you know how it is sometimes). It would probably be good to focus on his relationship with God, how that was going in the CC, and what’s happening now that he’s not there. Maybe you could ask a question or two about whether or not the Holy Spirit is indwelling him, or if He was ever in there before your friend left Catholicism. I’d definitely ask him that.

After you find out some of those kinds of things, I would think it’d be a lot easier to go from there. Those are the kinds of things I’d ask of someone swimming the Tiber the other way- except I’d also ask why they’re going with Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy. You know, maybe you could do that, too. There’s a chance that he’d be open to Orthodoxy if he cares about history.

Other than that, just make sure you assume good faith when you’re listening to him. I’m assuming he won’t lie to you if you approach this the right way, so if he talks about (for example) performing certain Catholic rituals for his entire life without any of the reciprocation from God that you should expect, you need to assume that he’s telling the truth about what happened to him. If that’s what happened to him, nothing you say will talk him out of it. As long as you’re talking about what happened (or didn’t happen) in the past between him and God while he was Catholic or at any other time, that’s a bad, bad move. Assume that what he says is what happened to him, then see where you can go from there.

 

[Apryl]

[Right here is an animated happy face of someone looking stunned, and shaking his face quickly from side to side. Squinching his eyes, opening then looking up… And it repeats]

I guess the situation for me was odd compared to what others have experienced. I don’t want to have a LONG talk with him. I dno’t want to hint at some sad excuse for ‘it’s ok… so long as you are going to church’, since I don’t believe that, but I also don’t want to say,’
‘ARE YOU NUTS???’, since I (personally) can’t imagine leaving the church.

I’m talking about that quick, 5 second response. The response that’s not patronizing (“Oh, that’s nice”) or insulting (“Oh, really?”) or anything that can cause him to think that I’m looking down on him.

I understand that ideal of ‘spiritual journey’. What does fascinate me, though, is some of the most devout, most staunch Catholics I know, their children grow up and RUN from the church. I would love to tap into that and say, ‘what need is it that you felt the Catholic Church wasn’t meeting? And why do you think it’s being met at your new place?’… but I can’t get that kind of dialogue in a 5 second blurb.

Which is what I’m looking for

 

[Nicea325]

There is a young man who grew up in the church. His father had been a Permanent Deacon. His grandfather was very VERY active in the church.

I spoke with him today, and he told me that he’s now in a Baptist church.

I was stunned, and although we were on the phone, I know he could tell I was taken aback.

I was stunned with myself: I like to think that I’m tolerant of other religions and I don’t do the, ‘My faith is better than yours’ or ‘If you wanted to be a REAL Christian, you’d be a Catholic’. I wanted to say, ‘Why aren’t you Catholic any more?’ and ‘How can you leave the Church?’

What should I have said? What should we say to one who leaves the Church?

I don’t want to push some one who is THINKING of leaving the Church the rest of the way out. I also don’t want to miss a last ditch moment to pull them back in.

Help!

Don’t worry about it. Do not say anything at all. No need to question him or ask him why he left. Debating will not change anything and if that is where spiritually he belongs so be it.

 

[hizstory]

Without judging him, I think it would be a good idea to have a conversation with him about why he left. My parents are Southern Baptists and they have a lot of fallen away Catholics in their church. Most, if not all of these fallen away Catholics, have told their new church members things about Catholic teaching that is absolutely absurd. I think it’s important that he didn’t leave with a false understanding of Church teaching. If he knows the Church’s teachings and rejects them, then there is nothing you can do but pray.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

Apryl,

Firstly, pray for him DAILY. When you get a good chance,** tell him that there is NO REASON to jump out of the arms of Holy Mother Church, because Catholicism encompasses the FULLNESS OF CHRISTIAN FAITH.** He has probably joined a protestant church because he has had his faith challenged by protestants who speak erroneously about what they think are Catholic beliefs and practices. You know the drill: “Why do Catholics worship Mary?” and “How come Catholics pray to statues?” and weird questions like these. If he was more grounded in his Catholic roots he would have no trouble answering these false accusations. Truth is, many Catholics are ignorant of the teachings of the Church…and these innocent lambs become the victims of skewed attacks by protestants who think they know better!

By the way, you might want to hook him up with a convert to Catholicism, like yours truly. My ancestors were all Baptists, but through the apologetics of such great Catholic scholars as Dr. Robert Sungenis, Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid (to name but a few), I have become a firmly-convinced and confirmed Catholic! I recommend that you purchase one of their books and wrap it up as a gift to your friend at Christmas!

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Without judging him, I think it would be a good idea to have a conversation with him about why he left. …

But that might be a very, very bad idea. Very bad.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think it depends on both individuals. Some people can be persuasive long-term and some cannot manage it. It has to be recognized, too, that some protestant groups put their “converts” through a very intense proselytizing, and give them all the “talking points” about why they should be whatever instead of Catholic. It has seemed to me that when those “converts” are all fired up by recent proselytization, it doesn’t do a lot of good to argue with them. Very frequently, though, that “fired up” thing fades with time.

Regardless, it has always seemed to me the best “answer” is to be faithful in one’s own life and to exemplify it. It has always seemed to me that one should never, ever endorse one’s change of faith. If I don’t believe in John’s new religion, why should I pretend that I consider it valid? Possibly I’m a jerk, but I always make it plain that I do not agree with the other’s decision. I don’t dwell on it, but I don’t just let it go.

I realize some Catholics go to other religions because their own catechesis was deficient. But in my experience, there is almost always some other thing going on. Let’s face it, most protestant sects require less of a person than does Catholicism properly lived, and “personal interpretation” is central to it. Sometimes a person wants to divorce and remarry. Sometimes a person doesn’t want to give up a particular sin. Sometimes a person wants more socialization for whatever reasons he wants it. Sometimes (and I have certainly heard this) he “doesn’t want to be told what to believe”. Well, that’s the very nature of protestantism, and some people just don’t think anybody else has any right to tell them what they should and should not think or do.

 

[Brywan]

one whose feet are nicely settled on the opposite side of the Tiber.

Don’t be too sure about that…

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

…
I realize some Catholics go to other religions because their own catechesis was deficient. But in my experience, there is almost always some other thing going on. Let’s face it, most protestant sects require less of a person than does Catholicism properly lived, and “personal interpretation” is central to it…

Every time I begin to question my decision, I find strength in posts like yours.

 

[Brywan]

I don’t think it hurts to ask someone why they decide to make the switch…if you have a healthy, open relationship with him, why not ask? It shows you are interested in his life. But the key here is to LISTEN to what he has to say and not to argue him out of it.

You can always end the conversation by saying you respect his decision and if he ever wants to talk about spiritual issues again you’d love to do so…the key here, again, is to DISCUSS spiritual issues–I would try to find some point of mutual agreement as a contact point, instead of always trying to explore where you disagree…

When I converted to Catholicism out of Evangelicalism, I expected my evangelical friends to ask me why I was making the switch…it would have seemed very odd to me if they hadn’t expressed any curiosity or interest…

 

[hizstory]

But that might be a very, very bad idea. Very bad.

Care to explain why it would be a bad idea? If his reasons for leaving is something he doesn’t wish to talk about, of course one must respect his wishes. Otherwise, I see nothing bad about asking him honest questions.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Care to explain why it would be a bad idea? If his reasons for leaving is something he doesn’t wish to talk about, of course one must respect his wishes. Otherwise, I see nothing bad about asking him honest questions.

You’re confused? Well, you’ll just have to experience that for yourself then.

 

[cooterhein]

I’m talking about that quick, 5 second response. The response that’s not patronizing (“Oh, that’s nice”) or insulting (“Oh, really?”) or anything that can cause him to think that I’m looking down on him.

I understand that ideal of ‘spiritual journey’. What does fascinate me, though, is some of the most devout, most staunch Catholics I know, their children grow up and RUN from the church. I would love to tap into that and say, ‘what need is it that you felt the Catholic Church wasn’t meeting? And why do you think it’s being met at your new place?’… but I can’t get that kind of dialogue in a 5 second blurb.

Which is what I’m looking for

I understand. Personally, I don’t feel like I would be able to get the job done in 5 seconds. I would need at least another couple of minutes in order to listen to their response and give feedback in response to that. That’s what I would do, anyway.

I’ll have to give this one some thought. I’m not sure that I could come up with a 5-second response that would do justice to the situation, but maybe I can look at what other people come up with and say “That would be well-received” or “That does not work well.”

 

[hizstory]

You’re confused? Well, you’ll just have to experience that for yourself then.

I converted to the Catholic Church from a fundamentalist background. My family and friends had no problem asking me why I switched. After I converted, I dated a girl who belonged to a fundamentalist sect. None of her family or church members had an issue with asking me why I switched.

So yeah, I guess I’m confused. Even more so now.

 

[cooterhein]

I think it depends on both individuals. Some people can be persuasive long-term and some cannot manage it. It has to be recognized, too, that some protestant groups put their “converts” through a very intense proselytizing, and give them all the “talking points” about why they should be whatever instead of Catholic. It has seemed to me that when those “converts” are all fired up by recent proselytization, it doesn’t do a lot of good to argue with them. Very frequently, though, that “fired up” thing fades with time.

I don’t know that this is necessarily true of most Protestants…? We don’t really have anything that compares to RCIA.

Regardless, it has always seemed to me the best “answer” is to be faithful in one’s own life and to exemplify it. It has always seemed to me that one should never, ever endorse one’s change of faith. If I don’t believe in John’s new religion, why should I pretend that I consider it valid? Possibly I’m a jerk, but I always make it plain that I do not agree with the other’s decision. I don’t dwell on it, but I don’t just let it go.

Perhaps you shouldn’t view the shift from Catholic to non-Catholic as a “change of faith” or a “new religion.” I thought we were all supposed to be Christians. How would you feel if I described Tiber swimmers as people who abandoned Christianity in order to become Catholic? I’m not doing that, but can you see why it’s a bad idea?

I realize some Catholics go to other religions because their own catechesis was deficient. But in my experience, there is almost always some other thing going on. Let’s face it, most protestant sects require less of a person than does Catholicism properly lived, and “personal interpretation” is central to it. Sometimes a person wants to divorce and remarry. Sometimes a person doesn’t want to give up a particular sin. Sometimes a person wants more socialization for whatever reasons he wants it. Sometimes (and I have certainly heard this) he “doesn’t want to be told what to believe”. Well, that’s the very nature of protestantism, and some people just don’t think anybody else has any right to tell them what they should and should not think or do.

What you’ve described is generally true of lapsed Catholics, not people who become Protestants. If someone wants to claim Christianity but still live however they want, they can do that from home on Sunday mornings, and that’s usually what they do. If someone makes the move from Catholicism to Protestantism, though, this is almost always a person of relatively impeccable character for whom matters of faith and morals are of basic importance. That really does have to be true to some extent if you want to attend a Protestant church for any significant length of time.

One more quick thing: When you describe “the very nature of Protestantism,” I think you’re imposing your impression of 16th-century European reformers upon 21st-century American non-Catholics who feel mostly ambivalence toward the CC and may not even think the term “Protestant” has a whole lot of use for them. In a word, I think you’re being a little bit anachronistic. Either that or you’re making a statement on how the founders of Protestantism have an effect on everything that comes after them, which I guess is true to a certain extent…but I don’t think it’s true to the extent that the nature of Protestantism today is just the same as it was in the 16th century.