What is an "independent" Catholic Church?

[Tamsulosin]

And we all know people, especially seniors, that do not own or know how to use a computer or do a search.I did not know myself that there is a website listing Mass times.
If we go to a beach town for vacation and we see a Catholic Church we assume it is legit
and go there on Sundays.
Some stern posters here implied that one shoud verify each Catholic Church ,befor using
the sacraments.It is just not done.

 

[Deacon_Avi]

Sure, but there are plenty of heretics and schismatics who can celebrate sacraments validly. The fact remains, of course, that the so-called Old Catholics are heretics (Birth control is a-okay! Papal infallibility is a lie!") and schismatics. Sounds pretty sinful and spiritually dangerous to associate with, “technically valid” sacraments or not.

New Canon Law specifically states that Old Catholics are CATHOLIC and are NOT schismatics nor are they heretical. They are merely not under the See of Rome. Old Catholics have NEVER considered Roman Catholics heretical. They simply recognize the validity of the first 7 Christian Eceumenical Councils and do not accept Modernization or the idea of the Deposit of Faith.

It is interetsing that Old Catholics (including Old Roman Catholics) are considered CATHOLIC by the Holy See while Eastern Orthodox (especially the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox who require Roman Catholics to be re-baptized) who uniquivocally state that Roman Catholics are HERETICAL, are recognized by the Holy See as being VALID.

Old Catholics accepted the idea of Papal Infallibility as a doctrine and did so before it was made into dogma. Once it was made into dogma, the Old Catholics rejected the dogma.

Note that many Old Catholic churches are NOT independent, they DO NOT accept the ordination of women, they are probably more traditional than your ordinary Roman Catholic Church as they retain the Traditional Tridentine Mass in Latin, etc.

Married Clergy which is common in Old Catholic circles is also accepted by the Holy See in Rome because Maronite Catholics (Lebanon), and Melkite Catholics (Syria and Greece) and Byzantine Catholics ALL have married clergy (except for monks and Metropolitans).

As far as “TECHNICALLY VALID” sacraments are concerned, if the Holy See has no problem with them, then you shouldn’t either. Note that I am a deacon serving in hospitals and prisons and believe me, I am friends with a Old Roman Catholic Monsignor who administers the sacraments to patients and prisoners when I or other clergy are not available and he has faculties conferred on him by the Bishop. He always consults with the patient’s parish priest when he has to administer last rites (after the fact). It is VERY common in prisons especially to have situations where Roman Catholic clergy are not available.

 

[Corki]

New Canon Law specifically states that Old Catholics are CATHOLIC and are NOT schismatics nor are they heretical. They are merely not under the See of Rome. Old Catholics have NEVER considered Roman Catholics heretical. They simply recognize the validity of the first 7 Christian Eceumenical Councils and do not accept Modernization or the idea of the Deposit of Faith.

Please post the Canon which says this.

It is interetsing that Old Catholics (including Old Roman Catholics) are considered CATHOLIC by the Holy See while Eastern Orthodox (especially the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox who require Roman Catholics to be re-baptized) who uniquivocally state that Roman Catholics are HERETICAL, are recognized by the Holy See as being VALID.

It doesn’t matter how they consider the Catholic Church. What matters is whether the Catholic Church considers them as part of the Church or something seperate. Seperate doesn’t necessarily mean schismatic but you can’t be seperate AND part of the Church.

Old Catholics accepted the idea of Papal Infallibility as a doctrine and did so before it was made into dogma. Once it was made into dogma, the Old Catholics rejected the dogma.

No group that rejects papal infallibility can be part of the Church.

Note that many Old Catholic churches are NOT independent, they DO NOT accept the ordination of women, they are probably more traditional than your ordinary Roman Catholic Church as they retain the Traditional Tridentine Mass in Latin, etc.

They are independent from Rome and independent from the Catholic Church. There seems to be an affiliation of several (Wikipedia says five) Old Catholic groups so they are not independent from each other.

Married Clergy which is common in Old Catholic circles is also accepted by the Holy See in Rome because Maronite Catholics (Lebanon), and Melkite Catholics (Syria and Greece) and Byzantine Catholics ALL have married clergy (except for monks and Metropolitans).

Not a problem unless they allow marriage after ordination.

As far as “TECHNICALLY VALID” sacraments are concerned, if the Holy See has no problem with them, then you shouldn’t either.

I don’t have a problem with their validity but rather with their licitness.

Note that I am a deacon serving in hospitals and prisons and believe me, I am friends with a Old Roman Catholic Monsignor who administers the sacraments to patients and prisoners when I or other clergy are not available and he has faculties conferred on him by the Bishop. He always consults with the patient’s parish priest when he has to administer last rites (after the fact). It is VERY common in prisons especially to have situations where Roman Catholic clergy are not available

Prison would be one of those circumstances. I don’t think it is that the Bishop gives faculties but rather that the Church recognizes that prison is an occasion where a person might not have access to a priest of his/her own Church. Similar situations exist with military chaplains. It is the same as a person living in a country with no Catholic Churches - only Orthodox. But this is VERY different from the Indifferentism you described earlier.

 

[Deacon_Avi]

Please post the Canon which says this.

It doesn’t matter how they consider the Catholic Church. What matters is whether the Catholic Church considers them as part of the Church or something seperate. Seperate doesn’t necessarily mean schismatic but you can’t be seperate AND part of the Church.

No group that rejects papal infallibility can be part of the Church.

They are independent from Rome and independent from the Catholic Church. There seems to be an affiliation of several (Wikipedia says five) Old Catholic groups so they are not independent from each other.

Not a problem unless they allow marriage after ordination.

I don’t have a problem with their validity but rather with their licitness.

Prison would be one of those circumstances. I don’t think it is that the Bishop gives faculties but rather that the Church recognizes that prison is an occasion where a person might not have access to a priest of his/her own Church. Similar situations exist with military chaplains. It is the same as a person living in a country with no Catholic Churches - only Orthodox. But this is VERY different from the Indifferentism you described earlier.

“When a Catholic sacred minister is unavailable and there is urgent spiritual necessity, Catholics may receive the Eucharist, penance or anointing from sacred ministers of non-Catholic denominations whose Holy Orders are considered valid by the Catholic Church. This includes all Eastern Orthodox priests, as well as priests of the Old Catholics or Polish National Church,”… Thomas P.Doyle, O.P., from his book, "Rights and Responsibilities: A Catholic’s Guide to the New Code of Canon Law."

WRONG!!! The **Polish National Catholic Church ** was a part of the Old Catholic Movement until 2005. In 2003, while the Polish National Catholic Church was still Old Catholic, the Holy See declared the Polish National Catholic Church to be faithful to the Catholic faith. Today, although the Polish National Catholic Church is considered valid by the See of Rome and not in schism, they are completely independent of Rome. There are official documents between the Polish National Catholic Church and the Holy See recognizing their strong bonds of love, charity and purpose.

The Polish National Catholic Church rejects Papal Infallibility as a dogma (not as a doctrine) and they are considered by the See of Rome to be faithful to the Catholic faith.

The Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox churches are independent of the Roman Catholic church but they are not considered a problem by the Holy Father. Their sacraments are considered valid by all parties. The Divine Liturgy poses no problems. Yet the Orthodox consider Roman Catholics to be heretical. This has never been the case with Old Catholics.

No traditional Old Catholic group that I know of (see the Old Roman Catholic Church in Europe (whose bishops train at the Pontifical Colleges of Rome) allows marriage after ordination.

These same traditional Old Catholics also do not allow people to partake of the Eucharist if divorced.

Again: If the Holy See does not have a problem with Old Catholics, why should you? My Parish Priest certainly does not have a problem with the Old Roman Catholic Church in my area and he checked with the Archdiocese.

Indifferentism is an element of Roman Catholic theology, namely the belief that there is no evidence that one religion or philosophy is superior to another. The Catholic Church ascribes indifferentism to all atheistic, materialistic, pantheistic, and agnostic philosophies. There are three basic types of indifferentism in Catholic theology: absolute, restricted, and liberal or latitudinarian indifferentism. Indifferentism was first explicitly identified and condemned by Pope Gregory XVI, in his encyclical Mirari vos.

That said, Old Catholics have ALWAYS been considered Catholic and they have always been faithful to the Teachings of the Early Church Fathers and the 7 Christian Ecumenical Councils. They are neither atheistic, materialistic, pantheistic or agnostic. Many Old Catholic bishops and priests have valid Roman Catholic ordinations and have attended the Pontifical North American College in Rome. Several Old Catholic Bishops share the same apostolic line of succession as Pope Benedict XVI. I personally would NOT be involved in an Old Catholic group that ordains women or that accepts same-sex marriages or interfaith marriages. But you have to understand that MANY Old Catholics feel the same way and are extremely traditional. This is especially true of the Polish National Catholic Church which is recognized as being a valid expression of Catholicism and Marian Devotion by the the Holy See.

 

[The_Idiot]

Deacon Avi,

I am very puzzled . I wonder if you would be good enough to tell us who your Bishop is , and in which Diocese you work .

 

[Corki]

The Polish National Catholic Church rejects Papal Infallibility as a dogma (not as a doctrine) and they are considered by the See of Rome to be faithful to the Catholic faith

.

Wrong.

The Polish National Church is, however, in communion with the Church of England (which, by definition makes in out of communion with the Catholic Church)

europe.anglican.org/partners/partners_incommunion.htm

As recently as April of this year, the Catholic Church and the Polish National Church were still in talks to determine IF and how the PNCC could come into communion with the Catholic Church. It is not now in communion with the Catholic Church.

usccb.org/comm/archives/2011/11-079.shtml

The report references a joint declaration

usccb.org/seia/jointdeclaration.shtml

which in turn references Canon 844

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

Interestingly the USCCB report includes a link to an agreement between the Catholic Church and the Old Catholic Diocese in Germany. The link, however, is broken and I am trying to find another source.

 

[Corki]

And we all know people, especially seniors, that do not own or know how to use a computer or do a search.I did not know myself that there is a website listing Mass times.
If we go to a beach town for vacation and we see a Catholic Church we assume it is legit
and go there on Sundays.
Some stern posters here implied that one shoud verify each Catholic Church ,befor using
the sacraments.It is just not done.

Well, in the “old” days before computers, if you were visiting a new area you would call the diocese and ask for the nearest Catholic Church. They aren’t going to point you to an illicit Mass.

In my area, many Churches listed the diocese on their sign. That’s a good indicator too. It’s not a perfect system, granted. Fortunately, these independent churches are not many in number and seem to be concentrated in some geographical areas.

Yes, I think it’s prudent to verify a Church when visiting not only to make sure it’s licit but also to avoid, for example, showing up for the Mass that’s in some language you don’t understand, among other reasons.

 

[Deacon_Avi]

.

Wrong.

The Polish National Church is, however, in communion with the Church of England (which, by definition makes in out of communion with the Catholic Church)

europe.anglican.org/partners/partners_incommunion.htm

As recently as April of this year, the Catholic Church and the Polish National Church were still in talks to determine IF and how the PNCC could come into communion with the Catholic Church. It is not now in communion with the Catholic Church.

usccb.org/comm/archives/2011/11-079.shtml

The report references a joint declaration

usccb.org/seia/jointdeclaration.shtml

which in turn references Canon 844

Interestingly the USCCB report includes a link to an agreement between the Catholic Church and the Old Catholic Diocese in Germany. The link, however, is broken and I am trying to find another source.

pncc.org/

2003

Journeying Together in Christ: the Journey Continues – The Report of the Polish National Catholic – Roman Catholic Dialogue 1989-2002 is published.

2003

November – PNCC voted out of the International Bishop Conference of the Union of Utrecht because the PNCC remained faithful to the Catholic Faith… as well as the Declaration of Utrecht. (Note that the Polish National Catholic Church did not completely break ties with the See of Utrecht until 2005.

2005

Prime Bishop Nemkovich attends the funeral of Pope John Paul II at St. Peter’s
Basilica in Vatican City. He is greeted by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and
Cardinal Walter Kasper while in Rome. The Holy See recognizes that the Polish National Catholic Church has remained faithful to the Catholic faith.

Within Anglicanism, the majority of Anglican provinces ordain women as deacons and priests. (Wikipedia)

I walked to my local Polish National Catholic Church as it is only 7 blocks from my house and asked the priest there about full communion with the Anglicans and the Church of England and he told me that AFTER the Anglicans and the Church of England accepted ordinations of women, the PNCC broke ties with all Anglican churches:

The PNCC in the United States and Canada entered into a state of “impaired communion” with the Utrecht Union in 1997, since the PNCC did not accept the validity of ordaining women to the priesthood, which most other Utrecht Union churches had been doing for the past several years. The PNCC continued to refuse full communion with those churches that ordained women… (Wikipedia)

 

[Corki]

pncc.org/

2003

Journeying Together in Christ: the Journey Continues – The Report of the Polish National Catholic – Roman Catholic Dialogue 1989-2002 is published.

2003

November – PNCC voted out of the International Bishop Conference of the Union of Utrecht because the PNCC remained faithful to the Catholic Faith… as well as the Declaration of Utrecht. (Note that the Polish National Catholic Church did not completely break ties with the See of Utrecht until 2005.

2005

Prime Bishop Nemkovich attends the funeral of Pope John Paul II at St. Peter’s
Basilica in Vatican City. He is greeted by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and
Cardinal Walter Kasper while in Rome. The Holy See recognizes that the Polish National Catholic Church has remained faithful to the Catholic faith.

Within Anglicanism, the majority of Anglican provinces ordain women as deacons and priests. (Wikipedia)

I walked to my local Polish National Catholic Church as it is only 7 blocks from my house and asked the priest there about full communion with the Anglicans and the Church of England and he told me that AFTER the Anglicans and the Church of England accepted ordinations of women, the PNCC broke ties with all Anglican churches:

The PNCC in the United States and Canada entered into a state of “impaired communion” with the Utrecht Union in 1997, since the PNCC did not accept the validity of ordaining women to the priesthood, which most other Utrecht Union churches had been doing for the past several years. The PNCC continued to refuse full communion with those churches that ordained women… (Wikipedia)

You first item was the 2003 report - I posted the 2011 one.

From 2008

Second, mixed marriages performed in the PNCC without a dispensation from canonical form, even if not lawful, would be considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church. This proposal is under consideration by USCCB committees.

valid but illicit

usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-183.shtml

2007

Part of the session centered on old business, including a discussion of the relations between Catholic and PNCC military chaplains, the possibility of further incremental steps towards unity, and a proposal regarding Canadian participation in the dialogue. The bulk of the meeting was devoted to two recent Vatican documents.

not yet in union

usccb.org/comm/archives/2007/07-163.shtml

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

This might just be my personal experience talking, so feel free to state your own. But it seems to me that – at least in general – if the Church calls itself “St. ______ Roman Catholic Church” it isn’t part of the Catholic Church. It’s “independent,” whatever that happens to mean in any particular case (but usually that means schism of one sort or another).

If it’s part of the Catholic Church, it tends to be “St. _____ Catholic Church.” No need to say “Roman,” because that’s just the particular rite.

So, if I see a parish calling itself “Roman Catholic” rather than just “Catholic,” that adds to the various reasons I might find myself checking with the local diocese to make sure it’s legit.

I’m sure there are exceptions to this rule of thumb; does anyone challenge its usefulness generally?

I disagree. I’ve seen a lot of regular diocesan NO parishes that say “Roman Catholic” on the sign. Maybe it just depends on where you live or when the church was built.

 

[ConstantineTG]

All the Catholic parishes in my Diocese for the most part include “Roman Catholic Church” in their signage and so forth to make the distinction that they are indeed true Catholic Churches in union with Rome.

Eastern Catholic parishes will never put “Roman” in their name to signify their communion with Rome, yet they are true Catholic Churches and are in communion with Rome.

 

[The_Idiot]

Deacon Avi

I asked before - but as it was the last post on a page it seems to have been ignored.

Who is your Bishop and in which Diocese are you working ?

 

[Seatuck]

Eastern Catholic parishes will never put “Roman” in their name to signify their communion with Rome, yet they are true Catholic Churches and are in communion with Rome.

Yes, the Eastern Catholic churches do not say Roman and are true Catholic Churches in union with Rome.

 

[felsguy]

Could you please bring up a few more “angry trad” tropes? I have distributed bingo cards with all of them listed, but I still need you to hit N-27 or O-19 for my bingo. Thanks in advance!

Mark, I am disappointed that your comment here does not meet your usual high standard. Surely you must know that both “27” and “19” are found only under “I” . just teasing!