What is Bahaism? Is it a branch of Islam?

[arthra]

It might be wise to review the Twelfth Imam and how it that is improtant at least for Shiah Muslims… Most all the Imams…lineal descendents of Prophet Muhammad through His daughter Fatima and His counsin Ali ibn abu Talib were assassinated , poisoned or imprisoned the Twelfth Imam “disappeared” around 260 AH…

The following is how we Baha’is see it… We accept that the legitimate successors of Prophet Muhamamd were His lineal descendents the Imams but we do not necessarily accept all the legends around these figures …so let’s review a few things…

The eleventh Shi’a Imam Hasan al-Askari died on 1 January 874 AD (8th Rabi’ al-awwal, 260 AH)[6] and since that day, his son Mahdi is believed by Shi’as to be the Imam, appointed by Allah, to lead the believers of the era.

now some believed that he was hidden and alive somehow in a cave… literally. and some believed he will descend ferom the clouds like some Christians think Jesus will descend hence the confusions when prophecies are interpreted literally…

The thousand years from 260 AH ended in 1260 AH and many in the Shaykhi sect of Shiah believedd the return of the Twelfth Imam was immanent…Siyyid Khazim send his students out looking for the Returned Twelfth Imam and many believed Siyyid Ali Muhammad was the Promised One… He was known as the Bab and at first many believed he was the “Gate” to the HIdden Imam but later believed He was the return of the Twelfth Imam…

Siyyid Ali Muhammad claimed descent Himself from Prophet Muhammad:

Siyyid (or Mirza) 'Ali-Muhammad, known to history as the Báb, was the son of Siyyid (or Mir) Muhammad-Rida, a mercer of Shiraz.(1) He was born on October 20th 1819 (Muharram 1st, 1235 A.H.). Through both His father and His mother He was descended from Imam Husayn,

[1] the third Imam. Thus He stood in direct line of descent from the Prophet Muhammad.

• Art

 

[arthra]

Someone wrote above that they believed the Mahdi would return with violence… this is not supported however in the Shiah traditions:

Prophecies of the Mahdi… from Shiah view:

While it is also somewhat related I will include some prophecies of the Mahdi:

Harun Yahya* asked: *

In his hadiths the Prophet (saas) told us that the Mahdi will be opposed to terror and violence, and that the anarchic environment and all acts of terror will come to an end in his day.

The hadiths state that in the time of the Mahdi all weapons will fall silent and wars will come to an end:

War will lay down its burden (arms and the like). (Sunan Ibn Majah, 10/334; Imam Sharani)

No Blood Will Be Shed in the Time of the Mahdi

Again according to the hadiths, the Mahdi will bring justice to the whole world, but not one single drop of blood will be shed. The Mahdi will be opposed to terror and violence. War and conflict will come to an end. Yet the Mahdi will follow a very peaceful path as he does all this. This attribute of the Mahdi is set out as follows in the hadith:

In the same way that bees gather round the queen, so people will gather round the Mahdi. He will fill the world, once filled with oppression, with justice instead. Such will be his justice that the sleeping man will not be awakened and no blood will be shed. The world will return to the Age of Happiness. (al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar, pp. 29 and 48)

The Mahdi’s Intellectual Activities and Struggle Will Make Islamic Moral Values Victorious

The hadiths tell us that, just like the Prophet (saas), the Mahdi will treat people with love and compassion, resolve problems by peaceful means, and call on people to have moral virtue and faith. The Mahdi’s struggle against atheistic ideologies (philosophies that deny Allah) will be carried out in the realm of ideas, and he will defeat those heretical ideologies using the wisest and most rational of methods.

Peace and Security Will Reign in the Time of the Mahdi

Nobody’s nose will bleed, nobody will suffer harm and nobody will be awoken from sleep in the time of the Mahdi. This is also one of the clearest proofs that the Mahdi will wage his struggle on the intellectual plane. He will neutralize atheistic movements (philosophies that deny Allah) by means of his intellectual work, and will thus ensure the supremacy of Islamic moral values. The hadiths tell us that the Mahdi’s struggle will be a peaceful one:

The Mahdi… will walk in peace. (Signs of Qiyamah, p. 173)

By means of him (the Mahdi), Allah will put an end to blind strife. Security and peace will reign in the world… (Signs of Qiyamah, p. 164)

The Mahdi will follow in the path of the Prophet, he will not awaken the sleeping man and no blood will be spilt. (Signs of Qiyamah, p. 163)

In his time, neither a man will be awoken from sleep, nor will a person’s nose bleed. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar, p. 44)

In a climate of violence and terror it is impossible for a sleeping person not to be awakened. But according to the sayings of the Prophet (saas), the Mahdi bring about the supremacy of Islamic moral values in such a calm, intellectual and cultural environment that it “will not even awaken the sleeping man.” Indeed, people can only attain understanding, reflect and research, in an atmosphere of peace. The Prophet (saas) received revelation when he was meditating in the very calm atmosphere of Mount Hira. The way that people withdraw to the calm of mosques and other places shows how they need peace in order to be able to think deeply.

The importance of calm is also stressed in the Qur’an. This atmosphere of calm that the Mahdi will establish in the End Times will prepare the way for people to read and think, to be able to see the truth, and to believe.

The Mahdi Will Emerge from Istanbul and Spiritually Conquer the City

…

 

[planten]

Usbek de Perse, post #18 is very good. True description of the Baha’i faithshown below with my comments. Please see:

I am a former Baha’i of 30 years, now back in Episcopal Church

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The Baha’i Faith sees its founder, Baha’u’llah, as the latest in a series of divine messengers or “manifestations of God”. The most recent previous messenger was Muhammad, then Christ, then Zoroaster, then Moses, and including but not in chronological order Krishna and the Buddha. They believe that God sends a messenger from time to time in order to move human understanding and civilization along, and to bring humanity closer to God.

That is exactly the belief of the Ahmadi Muslims too.

They believe that Baha’u’llah is the Return of Christ, the Qa’im for Shi’ia Islam, the Mahdi for Sunni Islam, the Lord of Hosts for the Jews, the Maitreya Buddha, etc.

The Ahmadis also believe the same, that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian is the promised Masiha a.s. and that he is the Imam Mahdi and Krishna and Budha and Moses and Abraham… Mirza Ghulam Ahmad wrote about 85 books in Urdu, Pesian and Arabic. he had full faith in Quran and Sunnah and Hadith and prayed five times a day exactly like all Muslims. He loved the family of the holy prophet 100%. All his life was exactly according to other Muslims. (If any difference, I will describe it soon.)
He issued challenge to all the world leaders (religious leaders of all faiths) to come and seek the truth at his cost. He claimed that he was receiving revelations and that common type of revelation is still continued amongst Muslims and other faiths.

Baha’is themselves do not consider themselves to be Muslims. They make a point of saying that an Egyptian court in the 1920s forbad burial of Baha’is in a Muslim cemetary. So, they are not trying to get to Mecca, in any case.

The Ahmadis are not allowed to pray in the Muslim mosques and they are not allowed to bury their dead in the Muslim cemetries. It is same as for the Baha’is. The Ahmadis are persecuted by the Muslims in the same way as Baha’is were persecuted.

The Baha’i faith does not believe in a trinitarian God as we Christians do, and this poses problems of consistency, as it is clear from early Christian documents that Christ and his apostles clearly taught just that

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**That is also the belief of the Ahamdis. They do not believe in Trinity. That is because that is taught in the Quran.

Why the Baha’is do not believe in Trinity? Did they get some revelation to disbelieve in Trinity? and did the Baha’is preach anything against Trinity forcefully or they preached in under tones only, quietly.??**

Baha’is follow a moral code that is quite admirable. They do permit divorce as Islam does

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That is exactly what the Ahmadis believe and practice. Moreover, the Ahmadis are peaceful educated people. They do not believe in any armed struggle or spreading the religion with weapons.

I would say that the Baha’i faith is despite all its proclaimed comprehensiveness, really just a Christianized Islam, without any of the usual trappings of Christianity. There are no clergy, no sacraments, and no set forms of corporate worship

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I admire Usbek for giving this description of the Baha’is. Seems to be true and correct description.

Baha’is, like all religions, have a certain jargon vocabulary that can be confusing, but Baha’i meetings are, apparently, now open to the public. Certain ones were closed in the past

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**That is also true. I heard that in the past, they did not allow any one to observe their way of prayer. There were some secrets. Perhaps it was to avoid any disturbance,or some other reason.

The Ahmadis on the other hand pray openly five times a day and invite people of other faiths into their mosques, centers, houses. That is from day one till now that they are established in more than 195 countries of the world. And the Ahmadis say they number more than 150 million in the world now. They are catching up on the radical muslims, millitant, violent muslims with good speed. The Ahmadis have a 24 hour worldwide Tv called MTA.

While Baha’is may be gaining (or may have gained some) ground through correct (wise) international politics, the Ahmadis do not indulge in any politics. They wish to allow all good chances for peaceful preaching to all religions of the world. But it should not be to abuse any leader of a religious with malicious talks.

Now the difference: The leader of the Ahamdis, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian lived 1835 to 1908 A.D. He claimed to be the promised Masiha i.e. second coming of Jesus in clear words.He claimed to be the Imam al Mahdi in clear words. He claimed to be a shadow prophet under the command of Muhammad. (That last claim stirred up trouble against him. Also when he claimed to be the second coming of Jesus a.s. the Muslim went against him.)

I see many similarities in the Baha’i faith and the beliefs of the Ahamdis. Mirza Ahmad was a very peaceful person. Under the British rule in India, he never went to jail even for one day though many people tried to have him jailed under one pretext or the other. Good old British people and good British justice. Marvellous. Such justice was not available to Baha’is in Iran.

You see, where God wanted the Imam Mahdi and Jesus to arrive, God first established peace there. Quite a miracle that white people from 4500 mile away came and took strong hold of the whole India and Punjab etc. They brought peace in the land. Such was not the case any where else in Muslim world. Not in Iran, or Sudan or Suadi Arabia or Egypt. Wonderful.**

 

[planten]

What is bahaism?? I have given a long post above.

The important difference between claim of Bahaullah and Ahmad is that:

1. Bahaullah claimed to be the divine manifestation, i.e. probably another name for a prophet. Shall we assume it that is a word used for peophet?? But why speak in a round about way. Why not to come straight and use the well known word prophet?? Or the word messenger??

Bahaullah claimed to be a prophet (let us allow it). and He also claimed to be the God. The Baha’is here (DavidMark) had admitted it as yes and NO.

1. Ahmad claimed to be a shadow, non-law bearing prophet. He never claimed that he was a God in any way.

That is a big difference in the claim of the two upcoming persons of this age.

 

[planten]

arthra, your post #21:

The Twelfth Imam and prophecies of the Mahdi…

---

It might be wise to review the Twelfth Imam and how it that is improtant at least for Shiah Muslims… Most all the Imams…lineal descendents of Prophet Muhammad through His daughter Fatima and His counsin Ali ibn abu Talib were assassinated , poisoned or imprisoned the Twelfth Imam “disappeared” around 260 AH…

In other words you do not believe that Abubakr and Umar etc were any true leaders of the early Muslims?? Also, it was rather late for the very young six month old 12th Imam to think about avoiding assasination by disappearing?? Was it not quite late to adopt that method when the earlier greater Imams did not think about that??

The following is how we Baha’is see it… We accept that the legitimate successors of Prophet Muhamamd were His lineal descendents the Imams but we do not necessarily accept all the legends around these figures …so let’s review a few things…

That is a clear Shia anti Sunni belief. You consider Umar and Abubakr as usurpers of the leadership and you consider them as sinners. Is that so??

The eleventh Shi’a Imam Hasan al-Askari died on 1 January 874 AD (8th Rabi’ al-awwal, 260 AH)[6] and since that day, his son Mahdi is believed by Shi’as to be the Imam, appointed by Allah, to lead the believers of the era.

Some Shia books say that Imam Askari did not have any male child. What do you say??

now some believed that he was hidden and alive somehow in a cave… literally. and some believed he will descend ferom the clouds like some Christians think Jesus will descend hence the confusions when prophecies are interpreted literally

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Please understand that it was not that some Shias believed that. Almost 100% Shias believed that 12th Imam was in the hiding. He will appear some day in future. (even thoughthat be wrong belief). Nobody believed that the 12th Imam will be reborn…

The thousand years from 260 AH ended in 1260 AH and many in the Shaykhi sect of Shiah believedd the return of the Twelfth Imam was immanent…Siyyid Khazim send his students out looking for the Returned Twelfth Imam and many believed Siyyid Ali Muhammad was the Promised One… He was known as the Bab and at first many believed he was the “Gate” to the HIdden Imam but later believed He was the return of the Twelfth Imam…

Siyyid Ali Muhammad claimed descent Himself from Prophet Muhammad:

It may be as you say. I do not know about it. All that from Baha’is seems to be a modified version of the Shia beliefs only, nothing from Islam.

 

[Nine_Two]

The difference is this: Baha’is consider themselves to be part of a independent religion. They do not call themselves Muslim.

JWs and Mormons call themselves Christian. Though they are not Christian, they want to be in the Christian tent.

So what I said.

 

[planten]

Someone wrote above that they believed the Mahdi would return with violence… this is not supported however in the Shiah traditions:

You cannot deny that. I know that Sunnis believe thata and they are waiting for a bloody mahdi. I ama lmost sure that Shias also believe the same. They believe in an Imam who will come and kill all. He will not accept repentence even.

In his hadiths the Prophet (saas) told us that the Mahdi will be opposed to terror and violence, and that the anarchic environment and all acts of terror will come to an end in his day.

In which Hadith?? No reference? haroon yahya should have given reference.

The hadiths state that in the time of the Mahdi all weapons will fall silent and wars will come to an end:

That is not true about Imam Mahdi. That is only true about the second coming of Masiha son of Maryam. There will be no wars when Isa comes. (Mentioned in Bukahri by oath of Allah)

War will lay down its burden (arms and the like). (Sunan Ibn Majah, 10/334; Imam Sharani)

No Blood Will Be Shed in the Time of the Mahdi

**All that was said about Isa ibne Maryam (Jesus) clearly. Prophet did not say it in reference to Imam Mahdi. But the prophet said that Jesus and imam Mahdi will be one and the same person.
**Again according to the hadiths, the Mahdi will bring justice to the whole world, but not one single drop of blood will be shed. The Mahdi will be opposed to terror and violence. War and conflict will come to an end. Yet the Mahdi will follow a very peaceful path as he does all this. This attribute of the Mahdi is set out as follows in the hadith:

In the same way that bees gather round the queen, so people will gather round the Mahdi. He will fill the world, once filled with oppression, with justice instead. Such will be his justice that the sleeping man will not be awakened and no blood will be shed. The world will return to the Age of Happiness. (al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar, pp. 29 and 48)
** I do not know where all that is written in our books.**​

The importance of calm is also stressed in the Qur’an. This atmosphere of calm that the Mahdi will establish in the End Times will prepare the way for people to read and think, to be able to see the truth, and to believe.

Where that is written in the Quran about Imam Mahdi??

 

[arthra]

Platen,

I would ask that you pledge to make a greater effort to be more accurate when writing about Baha’i Faith

… I will defer to you if I have questions about the Ahmadis … alright?

Above you wrote:

I heard that in the past, they did not allow any one to observe their way of prayer. There were some secrets. Perhaps it was to avoid any disturbance,or some other reason.

My reply:

This is not really the case… When Baha’is recite the obligatory prayers they are in private… to God alone … Here you can see what our obligatory prayers are like:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BP/bp-4.html

All other prayers can be said openly for a group. The only prayer we say in “congregation” is for Baha’is who have passed on from this life… So again try to get your facts straight without leaving innuendo that “there must be some secrets”…

Platen wrote above:

Why the Baha’is do not believe in Trinity? Did they get some revelation to disbelieve in Trinity? and did the Baha’is preach anything against Trinity forcefully or they preached in under tones only, quietly.??

My reply:

See the following:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html.utf8?query=trinity&action=highlight#

Platen:

Bahaullah claimed to be the divine manifestation, i.e. probably another name for a prophet. Shall we assume it that is a word used for peophet?? But why speak in a round about way. Why not to come straight and use the well known word prophet?? Or the word messenger??

My reply:

I think this has already been addressed but you seem to ask it over again… We believe there are Manifestions of God that are independent Prophets of God that bring new books and ordinances… The closest concept in Islam to this is the “Rasuli” … The other prophets “Nabiyim” receive inspiration and are dependent.

See:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-43.html.utf8?query=prophets&action=highlight#gr4

Please note:

Baha’is do accept that the legitimate successors to Prophet Muhammad were His lineal descendents the Imams rather than the Caliphs and particularly the UImayyads who descended from Abu Sufian.

The prophecies I posted above are from Shiah sources and particularly from Hadiths from Imams …

• Art

 

[planten]

Platen,

I would ask that you pledge to make a greater effort to be more accurate when writing about Baha’i Faith

… I will defer to you if I have questions about the Ahmadis … alright?

Welcome Art, you appear to want to take some revenge. !! I did not intend to hurt you by asking questions.

Above you wrote:

I heard that in the past, they did not allow any one to observe their way of prayer. There were some secrets. Perhaps it was to avoid any disturbance,or some other reason.

My reply:

This is not really the case… **When Baha’is recite the obligatory prayers they are in private… to God alone **… Here you can see what our obligatory prayers are like:

That was reported in Bombay. When some one (non-Bahai visitor) wanted to discuss something, the Baha’i leader said they had no time. They were about to attend prayer. The visitor requested to join in the prayer. The Baha’i leader said that it was not allowed.

Anyhow, you have admitted yourself that you have some obligatory prayers. they are in private.

All other prayers can be said openly for a group. The only prayer we say in “congregation” is for Baha’is who have passed on from this life… So again try to get your facts straight without leaving innuendo that “there must be some secrets”…

It means that you have special prayers which a visitor cannot even see.

Platen wrote above:

Why the Baha’is do not believe in Trinity? Did they get some revelation to disbelieve in Trinity? and did the Baha’is preach anything against Trinity forcefully or they preached in under tones only, quietly.??

My reply:

See the following:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html.utf8?query=trinity&action=highlight#

I do not see the following. Art, You come with your reply from yourself first, please. So please tell why you do not believe in Trinity. You believe that Jesus was God and Prophet. So what is disturbing you. Is it the holy Ghost?

Platen:

Bahaullah claimed to be the divine manifestation, i.e. probably another name for a prophet. Shall we assume it that is a word used for peophet?? But why speak in a round about way. Why not to come straight and use the well known word prophet?? Or the word messenger??

My reply:

I think this has already been addressed but you seem to ask it over again… We believe there are Manifestions of God that are independent Prophets of God that bring new books and ordinances… The closest concept in Islam to this is the “Rasuli” … The other prophets “Nabiyim” receive inspiration and are dependent.

I have heard this for the first time. I do not believe that Rasul brings new law. Every prophet brings a book but not necessarily a new law. Rasul is given a message. The word rasul applies to four categories of men of God.

Acording to Islam, now no new independent prophet will come after Muhammad. Only persons from the ummah of Muhammad can achieve a status of a prophet, yet cannot use the name of prophet. He will be as good as a prophet, but will be without the name. He won’t be called a prophet.

There have been many such persons in the Ummah of Muhammad till now. They were Aulia Allah. They had the status of the prophet but did not have the name.That is why they did not say that any of them was a prophet. Abdul Qadir Jeelani (r.a.) was one of them.

According to baha’i faith, Jesus was an independent prophet which is wrong. According to Baha’is Jesus brought a new law.That is also wrong.Jesus had come to practice and reset the Jewish law which was brought by Moses. (Post is becoming too long)

 

[KathleenGee]

I am seeing several…but guess that is all I can do…

 

[planten]

Dear J C, I had to cut off arthra (part of arthra long post) to accommodate my reply. Still it became very long. I am sorry. pardon.