What is "belief"?

[Mijoy2]

“Believe”. I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. My certainty is probably much greater then 99.9 something %.

I believe my dog (a timid loveable 10 year old golden retriever) will not bit my hand off tomorrow. My certainty is less then 99.9 something percent.

I believe I will not crash my car on the way to work this week. My certainty is yet less again.

I believe Christopher Columbus sailed into America in 1492.

How am I to quatify my belief that a (probably beared) man named Jesus Christ died a cross just a little over 2000 years ago so that I could have a pathway to an eternal life?

How am I to quantify the belief that this man was God, the creator of all things, all of earth, all of the creatures on earth, all life on earth and all the heavens.

I DO believe this (depending). I believe this for a variety of reasons. I believe this because my studies deem it worthy of a degree of belief historically (yet my studies are limited because I must work for a living and support a family). I believe it because my heart after much contimplation has shown witness to the truth of an objective Truth (but how conclusive is this?). I believe because I can attest witness to the following of Christ’s Church has blessed me with a degree of evidence that my conversion was the right way (again, how conclusive is this?).

However, how do I quantify belief? I question every moment of every day. Particularily bad days when I have little degree of belief and find my self convincing myself of this belief.

We believe a man came to earth as an infant, was God incarnate, produced many miracles, died for our sins, was resurrected, ascendend into heaven, sent a Holy Spirit, assumed His Mother into Heaven, will judge each and every one of us.

Compared to all we are taught of this world this is incomparable to all else. Objectively speaking it is beyond all else in worthyness of belief. Yet we profess “belief”.

We are called to “believe”. My question is, what is belief? Can I say I believe when I have moments of profound doubt? When in Mass and listening to the Consecration and looking at a statue of Jesus Christ, I find myself saying to myself, “if only this were true, if only this is real, if only, if only if only…”.

What is belief? Do you, believe beyond a shadow of doubt? Maybe a small doubt? A rather large doubt? When Christ tells us we must believe, to what degree?

I DO NOT believe beyond a shadow of a doubt. If I told you otherwise I’d be telling a lie and God would know it. Can you tell me you “believe” beyond a shadow of a doubt and not be attempting to pull one over on God?

I’d love to hear.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

What is belief, you ask? It’s not knowledge; it’s not absolute fact; nor is it absolute opinion.

It is confidence and trust in a thought; mental acceptance of something comforting, motivating, or empowering to you personally. It’s your own definition of Truth.

:twocents:

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[SteveGC]

Something to consider…

The very fact that you have any belief in God at all, is in fact, a gift from God Himself. This is what your Church (God’s Church) teaches you.

In other words, there’s a simple case to be made…if you believe at all, you can believe FULLY and without doubt, for your capacity to believe in God comes from that very God. That’s why you can’t quantify it, because God is not quantifiable. You can quantify by percentage of certainty (or hope) things and concepts on earth, but not God Himself.

Read this from the CCC

Another thing…

Faith grows, and doubt diminishes, the more you fend off doubt (by understanding belief in God is His gift to you), receive sacramental graces, and commit your desire for increased belief to prayer. Doubt can be voluntary and willful (not a good thing), or involuntary and part of our fallen nature (not as bad, more naturally instinctive, but nonetheless ultimately damaging to our faith).

God Bless

 

[Mijoy2]

Good answers thank you both.

Something to consider…

The very fact that you have any belief in God at all, is in fact, a gift from God Himself. This is what your Church (God’s Church) teaches you.

In other words, there’s a simple case to be made…if you believe at all, you can believe FULLY and without doubt, for your capacity to believe in God comes from that very God. That’s why you can’t quantify it, because God is not quantifiable. You can quantify by percentage of certainty (or hope) things and concepts on earth, but not God Himself.

I’ve always struggled getting my head around this concept. Is this to say that if God did not give me grace to believe in Him, I’d have lived this same life, gathered the same data and elected to totally reject Him?

In other words, without His grace I would not be capable of coming to a belief in Him even if I were to study His Word, in sacred scripture, studied the history of early Christianity and the life of Jesus?

If Faith and reaason are not incompatable, as the Holy Catholic Church teaches, then to say that I can only believe in God if God grants me the grace to believe is the same as suggesting that I am capable of reason (evident by the fact that I function quite well in society) yet have a block on this one function of rexercising reason.

I trust in the Church, I am only trying to understand this teaching. It is problematic to me.

Another thing…

Faith grows, and doubt diminishes, the more you fend off doubt (by understanding belief in God is His gift to you), receive sacramental graces, and commit your desire for increased belief to prayer. Doubt can be voluntary and willful (not a good thing), or involuntary and part of our fallen nature (not as bad, more naturally instinctive, but nonetheless ultimately damaging to our faith).

God Bless

Again, I am not critisizing the point here. However might this also be attributed to self brainwashing? This is what we would attribute it to if a cult member were to gain faith in thier cause by fending of doubt (in this case rightful doubt) and committing their desire for increased belief.

Thank you,
–Mike

 

[JOE_OBERR]

Faith is believing everything, emphasis on the everything, that God has revealed to us, through his Church, for our benefit, namely, to begin sharing in his blessed life, or happiness, here on earth and to continue sharing it perfectly for all eternity in heaven. He is a loving father who wants only the best for us. This can only be realized, however, if we trust and obey him.

Because of our fallen human nature we have a strong inclination to pride which leads us away from him and into sin, which then makes us unhappy, miserable and sick in body, mind and spirit. God wants us to believe in him, love him and obey him FOR OUR OWN GOOD, and the good of society.

He created us for himself out of pure love, yet because of our free will, we can reject him. He does NOT make himself too obvious to us or else that would impinge on our free will. He “hides” himself from us to see if we really love him. We prove our love for him by obeying his commandments (“If you love me keep my commandments”) and praying to him in community, the Mass, and in private. We pray in order to obtain the grace necessary to keep the commandments - no prayer = no grace = disobedience = misery in this life & the next.

A man appeared 2,000 years ago who worked countless miracles to back his claim to be God. He proposed all saving truth and moral discipline in his Gospel which he taught to his Apostles, or followers. He loved, cured physical/spiritual illnesses and proposed teachings which no one has ever come close to before or since. He claimed that if you didn’t love one another, feed the hungry etc, you would suffer in hell for all eternity. If you did love, forgive others and assist them in their need you would enjoy eternal bliss.

This is at the heart of belief or faith. Do you believe Jesus when he said that? No one can prove or disprove heaven or hell, that is why believing in Jesus means believing everything he said, especially the things pertaining to the hereafter which can’t be proved or disproved.

Do you believe him when he said to listen to his Church, to obey Peter and his successor leaders of the Church? Thousand upon thousands of bible Christians who knew Jesus, or lived in the next few generations, believed what he said, lived this life of belief in the Catholic Church and died through persecution. Apparently there was sufficient evidence for them as no one could deny the great miracles he performed, try as they might as Jesus’ miracles were almost always done with many, sometimes thousands of witnesses.

The Jesus haters could slander him and his Church, but none was able to persuade
to any degree that the miracles of Jesus were made up or fictitious. But what first attracted people to Jesus was the primary reason he came to earth which was to redeem us, or to liberate us from the slavery to sin (Lk 4:18). Sin not only cuts us off from God, but, as mentioned earlier, makes us and society miserable and leads to untold suffering. Jesus’ passion and death ransomed us from bondage to the devil.

We say at Mass “Lord, by your cross & resurrection you have set us free, you are the savior of the world”. Set us free from what??? From sin, from addictions and compulsions to drink, drugs, hatred, unforgiveness, pornography, fornication, lust for money etc etc. When addicted to such things we cannot share in God’s blessed life on earth. Because we tell him we prefer to sin instead of loving him he CAN’T give us his grace of peace and joy.

But, if we repent, confess our sins to the priest (as Jesus commanded), and go to Mass to receive the sacrament of salvation, the Eucharist, every Sunday, daily if possible, we will receive the grace to reject sin and notice a change in our lives by being able to free ourselves from these sins, addictions and compulsions. We become happy and peaceful.

But this is only possible if you believe what the Church teaches. As you can see though, the Church, our true mother on earth, wants us, but won’t force us, to believe in order that our lives will change for the good and start living for God and others, instead of ourselves.

 

[SteveGC]

Good answers thank you both.

I’ve always struggled getting my head around this concept. Is this to say that if God did not give me grace to believe in Him, I’d have lived this same life, gathered the same data and elected to totally reject Him?

In other words, without His grace I would not be capable of coming to a belief in Him even if I were to study His Word, in sacred scripture, studied the history of early Christianity and the life of Jesus?

If Faith and reaason are not incompatable, as the Holy Catholic Church teaches, then to say that I can only believe in God if God grants me the grace to believe is the same as suggesting that I am capable of reason (evident by the fact that I function quite well in society) yet have a block on this one function of rexercising reason.

I trust in the Church, I am only trying to understand this teaching. It is problematic to me.

Again, I am not critisizing the point here. However might this also be attributed to self brainwashing? This is what we would attribute it to if a cult member were to gain faith in thier cause by fending of doubt (in this case rightful doubt) and committing their desire for increased belief.

Thank you,
–Mike

Mike, alot of this gets into the marriage of faith and reason. Might I suggest John Paul II’s Fides et Ratio (faith and reason) encyclical. Click hereIt may illuminate some things for you. You may have already read it, in which case, I will continue to ponder your issue, and get back to you with some other thoughts.

On your last comment above, I would say this…if by “cult member” you are referring to pagan beliefs which some adherents attempt to increase for themselves…then we have to look at what is the SOURCE of their strengthening of faith. Further, any strengthening of faith must be measured by the subsequent responses and actions of the believer. I would be confident in suggesting that only Christians can find authentic strengthening of faith, because supernatural grace is only found through God…not nature, not Buddha, etc. God speaks to us in authentic, unique ways to confirm us in our prayers for strength. But to a degree, you’re right…someone with another type of faith can be brainwashed into thinking their faith is justified because it seems to grow as their life progresses. Why can’t they claim the same thing about us? Well, they can. It comes back down to faith and reason, I suppose.

God Bless

 

[Mijoy2]

Mike, alot of this gets into the marriage of faith and reason. Might I suggest John Paul II’s Fides et Ratio (faith and reason) encyclical. Click hereIt may illuminate some things for you. You may have already read it, in which case, I will continue to ponder your issue, and get back to you with some other thoughts.

Wonderful idea. I have been meaning to read more encyclicals (and reread the few I have read) anyhow. This is a good place to start. Only right now I have to put the hydraulic steering back together on my boat before sunsets. I will read this and respond in this thread with my thoughts later.

Thanks SteveGC.

 

[yesukristus]

“Is this to say that if God did not give me grace to believe in Him, I’d have lived this same life, gathered the same data and elected to totally reject Him?
In other words, without His grace I would not be capable of coming to a belief in Him even if I were to study His Word, in sacred scripture, studied the history of early Christianity and the life of Jesus?”

Jesus Himself talked about this (not sure about the verses though). And I have come across a blog of a Muslim who can quote the Christian Bible like anything and yet is staunchly Muslim. So yes, if for some reason it isn’t God’s will for you and me to be His children, then we are not. Luckily for us He wants us to be

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Mijoy2:

In other words, without His grace I would not be capable of coming to a belief in Him even if I were to study His Word, in sacred scripture, studied the history of early Christianity and the life of Jesus?

That is correct. There are many atheists that are experts on Sacred Scripture, Early Christianity and the Life of Jesus.

Do not confuse human faith with Divine Faith. They are separate and distinct, but do overlap to a certain degree in some ways.

Human Faith is all those things you enumerated about your job, dog and sun coming up.

Divine Faith comes from God, and is true Faith in God that is a Theological Virtue.
Matthew 16:13-17:

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

This was Jesus testifying that Peter did not come by this knowledge through any human effort, but through Divine Faith that only comes from God.

Further; listen to SteveGC. Entertaining doubts and skepticism is dangerous. Remember the story of Peter walking on the water to approach Jesus who was also walking on the water?
Matthew 14: 28-31:

28 Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.” 29 He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat, started walking on the water, and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he noticed the strong wind, F103 he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”

 

[Bear_Claw]

Is this to say that if God did not give me grace to believe in Him, I’d have lived this same life, gathered the same data and elected to totally reject Him?

In other words, without His grace I would not be capable of coming to a belief in Him even if I were to study His Word, in sacred scripture, studied the history of early Christianity and the life of Jesus?

If Faith and reaason are not incompatable, as the Holy Catholic Church teaches, then to say that I can only believe in God if God grants me the grace to believe is the same as suggesting that I am capable of reason (evident by the fact that I function quite well in society) yet have a block on this one function of rexercising reason.

Thank you,
–Mike

You make some very good points here Mike.
“Without His Grage”…I have wondered about that for so long. And by the posts here, people seem to agree that god needs to bestow His Grace upon you in order for you to believe.
If God chooses that you don’t believe then you won’t believe. That begs the question though…why? Why would he chose that some people not believe? Would it not be better if we all believed and we all are saved? But yet he chooses to withhold his grace from some. It’s confusing. And it’s not that some folks make a deliberate choice, it’s just that they never had the grace to begin with.

It teeter-totters on the brink of the pre-destination vs. free will debate, but even in scripture there is definitely a hint at a chosen group and people who are not chosen.

See, I was one of the people who wanted to believe, who needed to believe, but in all my searching, yearning and praying for it, God chose not to give me that grace of belief, of faith.

Not that this is about me, but I want to emphasize and agree with your point on the fact that it really seems like God gives grace to some and withholds it from others.
As in the example above on the Muslim person…it’s the same thing. God definitely wants some of us and doesn’t want some others.