What is Calvinism and is it "still around"?

[Indifferently]

If Jesus did not mean what he said why did he not stop people when they left him for saying you must eat the flesh of man and drink his blood or you have no eternal life in you?

Why did he say it is a hard saying and many cannot accept it.

Why is it when Christ mentioned it at the Last Supper it is then when Judas snapped and betrayed him.

If the Eucharist is not what Christ said it is, Which was this IS my Body and this IS my Blood why did he say it then?

And if it is not what he says it is, why does he tell us unless we drink and eat we have no life in us?

You seem to be under the impression that we teach the “memorialist” view. We do not.

 

[seanman611]

I would think J. I. Packer (English born but as of 2008 a member of the Anglican Church of Canada and now associated with the more conservative Anglican Church in North America) would be proof positive that it’s possible to be both a Calvinist and Anglican all while having enormous influence on non-Anglican Christians. In 2005, Time named him one of the 25 most influential evangelicals in America. They labeled him Evangelicalism’s “theological traffic cop.”

Also, as I understand it, the Anglican Diocese of Sydney in Australia is basically a defacto Calvinist institution.

I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, but neither of those examples are even close to the norm. There is barely anything Anglican left in the Diocese of Sydney.

 

[DAML72]

Protestantism always amazes me at the ingenuity of the human mind.
It reminds me of card games. Most start with the same pack with four suits and a limited number of cards like the Scriptures, with the jokers standing for the disputed books of the Bible. Some play with them, some don’t.
But from this small pack we have hundreds of different games with different rules. Same with the Scriptures.
Going to some churches reminds me of certain Bridge clubs. You mistakenly drop a card and some old biddy calls “Director! Director!” in an attempt at some small advantage and the complete embarrassment of the novice. Showing your humanity is as equally appalling to some Church goers.

And there it is - we can’t seem to have any threads discussing various aspects of Protestantism without someone feeling the need to express his or her Catholic superiority.

 

[DAML72]

Yet, it also should be pointed out that their are degrees of Calvinism. Many of the Reformed and Presbyterian churches have toned down their Calvinism over the years as they’ve been influenced by Arminiansim and vice versa.

Me and my brother took religion courses in college that required us to conduct an ethnography on a chosen religious group. I chose the local Episcopal Church. He chose the PC(USA) church.

When my brother asked the pastor about Calvinism and predestination, the pastor basically told him that that’s not what he believed.

I grew up in the Reformed Church, and I would agree with you on this. I think the Calvinist influence has definitely waned, even if certain principles are still officially embraced by the church.

 

[DAML72]

So lets see, where do we begin.

So we are all sinners and forget about the Cross for forgiveness of sin because it was meaningless. Okay

So the word of God that states God wants everyone to go to heaven, is just what plain wrong??

Irresistible grace. God gave us no free will!

Now my favorite, sin all you want, you can’t fall from the grace of God! Your IN!!

No wonder they dislike us. I must say their way is much more fun!

The poor Blessed Mother and Jesus I guess they were sinners also.

As my Aunt used to say! GOODNESS GRACIOUS HONEY!

That’s interesting, because I grew up in this tradition, and I thought Catholics had it easy - all you had to do was go confess a sin to a priest and go right back to doing it again - no accountability to God. At least, that’s what I saw the Catholics around me doing.

 

[JustaServant]

That’s interesting, because I grew up in this tradition, and I thought Catholics had it easy - all you had to do was go confess a sin to a priest and go right back to doing it again - no accountability to God. At least, that’s what I saw the Catholics around me doing.

I don’t know what kind of people you were hanging around, but I never saw any Catholic do that in my entire life.

 

[ByzantineHeart]

I assure you, Calvinism is very much around. I grew up in the region containing southwest Minnesota, northwest Iowa, and southeast South Dakota, and there were many Dutch immigrants here. Presbyterians aren’t as common, but we have the slightly more liberal Reformed Church in America, the Christian Reformed Church in the United States, the United Reformed Church, and others. Calvinism is very splintered like all Protestants. The Netherlands Reformed Congregations really do follow classic Calvinism. My sister’s neighbor told the story of how a young Netherlands Reformed woman was preached to hell at her funeral , because she didn’t receive the “vision,” which to them is apparently the sign of one’s election. It’s really a dark, fatalistic religion in its purest forms.

 

[Indifferently]

I assure you, Calvinism is very much around. I grew up in the region containing southwest Minnesota, northwest Iowa, and southeast South Dakota, and there were many Dutch immigrants here. Presbyterians aren’t as common, but we have the slightly more liberal Reformed Church in America, the Christian Reformed Church in the United States, the United Reformed Church, and others. Calvinism is very splintered like all Protestants. The Netherlands Reformed Congregations really do follow classic Calvinism. My sister’s neighbor told the story of how a young Netherlands Reformed woman was preached to hell at her funeral , because she didn’t receive the “vision,” which to them is apparently the sign of one’s election. It’s really a dark, fatalistic religion in its purest forms.

Calvinism does not teach that a “vision” is a sign of election. That is flat out false. Calvin had no such doctrine, and neither do any of the legitimate Reformed confessions.

 

[ByzantineHeart]

Calvinism does not teach that a “vision” is a sign of election. That is flat out false. Calvin had no such doctrine, and neither do any of the legitimate Reformed confessions.

They may not call it a vision, but rather a “supernatural affirmation.” I have heard it from the mouths of more than one person, and I grew up and live surrounded by Calvinists. My great-aunt used to minister to people in a hospice, and one Netherlands Reformed guy was inconsolable on his deathbed, because he had not received this affirmation.

 

[Indifferently]

They may not call it a vision, but rather a “supernatural affirmation.” I have heard it from the mouths of more than one person, and I grew up and live surrounded by Calvinists. My great-aunt used to minister to people in a hospice, and one Netherlands Reformed guy was inconsolable on his deathbed, because he had not received this affirmation.

Would you please point me to this “supernatural affirmation” phenomenon from the Reformed confessions, or stop saying it?

 

[JustaServant]

They may not call it a vision, but rather a “supernatural affirmation.” I have heard it from the mouths of more than one person, and I grew up and live surrounded by Calvinists. My great-aunt used to minister to people in a hospice, and one Netherlands Reformed guy was inconsolable on his deathbed, because he had not received this affirmation.

I’m not sure what kind of “Calvinists” you were around, but in my experience among Reformed and Calvinist types. I never encountered anything even remotely close to what you are describing. And believe me, I am no friend to Calvinism
Westboro Baptist Church also claimed to be “Calvinist”.

 

[Indifferently]

Our assurance comes through the participation in the means of grace - Word and sacraments. Our assurance of salvation is based on the objective work of Jesus Christ - both his righteousness imputed to us and our sin imputed to him at the cross.

Calvinists are strong opponents (generally speaking) of the view that God communicates his grace apart from the means of grace which he has appointed.

Michael Horton is probably one of the most prominent Calvinists today. Calvinist scholars have also produced very interesting works lately on biblical covenantal theology.

 

[South_Bound]

They may not call it a vision, but rather a “supernatural affirmation.” I have heard it from the mouths of more than one person, and I grew up and live surrounded by Calvinists. My great-aunt used to minister to people in a hospice, and one Netherlands Reformed guy was inconsolable on his deathbed, because he had not received this affirmation.

I believe the theological term for this is bovine skubalon. We don’t believe anything even remotely like that. Not only do Calvinists believe the canon is closed, thus, no extra-Biblical revelation, but even among those very rare Calvinists who aren’t cessationists, such as John Piper and C.J. Mahaney, they still believe the canon is closed and there is no extra-Biblical revelation.

You realize when you say things like this, you can now no longer say anything we say about Catholicism is wrong, right?

I’m not sure what kind of “Calvinists” you were around, but in my experience among Reformed and Calvinist types. I never encountered anything even remotely close to what you are describing. And believe me, I am no friend to Calvinism
Westboro Baptist Church also claimed to be “Calvinist”.

Of course Calvinists don’t believe this. But it’s been my experience that, when it comes to Protestants, Catholics practice a brand of taquiyya, in which they believe they’re defending Catholicism by lying about what we believe and slandering us.

In this case, she’s talking about extra-Biblical revelation, which, at best, would get somebody pastoral counseling and, at worst, such as in this case, have somebody excommunicated for heresy. ((And, yes, before you say it, I already know you’re going to say, “Oh, so just because they don’t agree with your interpretation…”))

She knows that’s not anywhere close to anything we believe, but, to her, it’s OK because she’s defending Catholicism.

Cat:

Here’s a friendly hint–if I were you, I would be careful about sharing this analogy with Evangelical Protestants, including many Baptist and Pentecostal denominations. Many of these denoms do not allow card-playing and consider it devilish, so this analogy would be highly offensive to them.

I don’t find it offensive because of the playing card analogy, but because it’s rude and it’s a strawman meant to mock us and paint our beliefs in a negative light, when it’s clear that the person making the analogy has no idea what we believe.

Unfortunately, the intellectual level of the criticism against us around never rises above “Protestants? Must be a bunch of evil idiots”.

If you don’t want to be offensive how about talking to us and asking us what we believe, rather than making up silly straw-analogies?

 

[KathleenGee]

What about the Geneva Bible that rewrote words that some how were vague judgments against Catholics…not the work of the Holy Spirit or the directives of the Apostles.

I think there is much more anti-Catholic stuff going around by other Christians than any other group.

SouthBound…if you are still checking back, go to www.calledtocommunion.com that has many former Protestant ministers on board who address issues of Calvinism. A most excellent site.

 

[Porknpie]

What about the Geneva Bible that rewrote words that some how were vague judgments against Catholics…not the work of the Holy Spirit or the directives of the Apostles.

I think there is much more anti-Catholic stuff going around by other Christians than any other group.

SouthBound…if you are still checking back, go to www.calledtocommunion.com that has many former Protestant ministers on board who address issues of Calvinism. A most excellent site.

Kathleen,

Called to Communion is an excellent website. Here’s an article from their site by David Anders titled “How John Calvin Made Me Catholic.” I read it this last week and it is particularly insightful how Calvinism today compares little in many respects to the views Calvin held. John Anders like many converts ended up reading the Early Church Fathers and what he found was a church to his surprise that was very Catholic and resembled little the protestant church that he attended. He found a very liturgical Church practicing all seven sacraments.

PnP

 

[sallybutler]

How many of the modern day Calvinists believe that wealth is a sign that one is elected? Was that a popular sentiment?

 

[Faithdancer]

So we are all sinners and forget about the Cross for forgiveness of sin because it was meaningless.
So the word of God that states God wants everyone to go to heaven, is just what plain wrong?
Irresistible grace. God gave us no free will!
Now my favorite, sin all you want, you can’t fall from the grace of God! Your IN!!

Dear rinnie,
Trusting that your statements are due to a genuine misunderstanding of Calvinist doctrine, I will try to clarify, to the best of my own understanding of Calvinist soteriology:

1. Christ’s sacrifice is indeed atoning for all sinners. However, some will choose to take advantage of this incredible offer, and some won’t. God already knows who will (the “elect”) and who won’t (the “damned”). Some “hyper-Calvinists” believe in double predestination; if there is is such a believer on these forums I will leave it to them to clarify double predestination.
2. Jesus’s words on numerous occasions in the Gospel evidence that He is aware that not everyone will choose salvation. Revelation makes this quite clear as well; even beset with horrible plagues much of mankind will not repent and turn to Christ. Whether or not God wants everyone to go to Heaven, He knows that some will and some won’t.
3. With regard to irresistible grace, God knows who will accept His grace and come to faith in Jesus Christ (the "elect), and who will not. For those whom He knows will accept His grace, His grace is indeed “irresistible.”
4. Your final statement defines antinominianism, which most orthodox Calvinist Protestants would hold to be in error. If someone “sins all they want” that is a sign that they were never saved to begin with, since one who is saved one will invariably desire, through the continuing action of the Holy Spirit, to become ever more sanctified. One who is saved will also be compelled by the action of the Holy Spirit to repent every time he or she sins. Again, one who is saved will not be able to resist the genuine need to seek forgiveness for his or her sins. The Roman Catholic calls this process reconciliation, with the primary difference being of course that Catholic dogma teaches the necessity of a priest as intermediary, acting in persona Christi.

As I said, I don’t hold with double predestination; neither do I hold with antinomianism. To sum up all Calvinists as if they did would be an erroneous understanding of Calvinism, and might be analogous to saying that “all Catholics believe that Marian veneration is required for salvation” or perhaps, “all Catholics are SSPX.”

I pray that this helps. Peace in Christ!

 

[Contarini]

If anyone remembers or had heard of Harold Camping, he was a Calvinist. He taught that God had preordained certain people to be saved and certain people to be condemned. One could, however change one’s status from preordained to condemnation to preordained to salvation by begging God for mercy.

Camping was a Calvinist about like Luther was a Catholic. I.e., that’s how he started out and that’s his context, but he was a heretic by Calvinist standards. Of course, that’s true of most Protestants. Pretty much all Protestants, except Lutherans and perhaps Anabaptists, are splitoffs from Calvinism if they aren’t Calvinists.

Edwin

 

[ltwin]

Camping was a Calvinist about like Luther was a Catholic. I.e., that’s how he started out and that’s his context, but he was a heretic by Calvinist standards. Of course, that’s true of most Protestants. Pretty much all Protestants, except Lutherans and perhaps Anabaptists, are splitoffs from Calvinism if they aren’t Calvinists.

Edwin

Wesleyan/Methodist and its Holiness/Pentecostal offshoots for the most part don’t have Calvinist roots.

 

[Faithdancer]

Wesleyan/Methodist and its Holiness/Pentecostal offshoots for the most part don’t have Calvinist roots.

Many Baptist sub-denominations are also Arminian in their soteriology’ some are more hyper-Arminian. I know right away if a congregation is on the hyper-Arminian side if, when I visit for the first time, one or more elders or long-time members will come up to me and then after the name introduction, ask me directly about my salvation experience. It relates to the belief that not only is God’s grace resistable, but human intervention (i.e. intense personal evangelism) is usually necessary to convince someone to accept Christ (I hope that’s not an oversimplification). Anyway next time I see those questions coming, I think I’ll try to ask first, just for fun!