What is Catholic Predestination exactly

[psify]

I have heard it said that one person’s being in the glory of heaven is more wondrous than it is tragic that one person be in the misery of hell. The glory of a few in heaven may outshine the tragedy of many in hell. Keep in mind that there are also countless angels in heaven.

I think if we have some difficulty we should (1) recognize that we have the difficulty (2) remember God’s wondrous revelation in the cross and resurrection and thereby trust in God that any difficulties are our own and not present in eternity (3) pray to God for the strength to believe in spite of our difficulty “Lord, I believe, help my unbelief”

If this encourages you, there were a few Catholic saints who struggled with the mystery of predestination – it is a mystery – and they resolved it not with theology so much as they did with prayer and spiritual growth. Mysteries are things we believe but never quite understand. So difficulties are natural. As I think Cardinal Newman said, a thousand difficulties need not make a single doubt.

 

[JDaniel]

The_Exodus, Thank you for your replies. You help me clarify things, but I have yet to see a solution to the free will problem which makes sense to me.

But the question remains, how is the final ratio determined?

To me, our life on earth is sort of like life in a maze. In this Maze are several exists, but, only one that goes to Hell. There are signposts all along the ways to prevent one from making that choice. And there are rewards for right choices, all along the way.

Is man the sole author of his own destiny? Does man decide entirely for himself if he will accept or reject God? If man writes his own destiny, then God does not write it. In fact, God is bound by whatever man chooses, as God respects our free will.

Essentially, yes. God provides Graces, all along the way. But, it is ultimately our decision whether or not to seize them.

So if man is truly free, man can write the final ratio to be anything he would like, ranging from 0% to 100% going to heaven. It is like an political election; each man casts his vote for or against God, and the result of the election is entirely the will of the people, and the people alone.

Yes, with the exception of what God has previously written to our hearts and the providence of Grace, all along the way.

Now if God is really bound by man’s collective choice, God will have to accept the outcome, whatever it may be, for God respects our free will.

True. If He didn’t already know how it would turn out.

So, when God turned over the destiny of man to man’s free will, God was taking a tremendous gamble, because he was giving up control of the outcome to man. God did everything he could to get a favourable result, including sending his own Son to die for man. But the tremendous love of God still had to respect out free will, and thus, for all God did to bring man to himself, God has no gaurrantte that even a single soul will be his in the end.

Not a “gamble”, per se. Although it certainly, to us, seems like one. God did choose to instantiate a world where some would go where He wouldn’t be pleased. But, who knows what else God might have in store. I perceive Hell to be a state of existence wherein souls float endlessly, and are devoid of all somatics. But, these souls can think, and think, and think. About the darkness; the void, the complete lack of any and all communication.

What a tradgedy if heaven were to be empty for all eternity, but when God allowed man to be the author of his own destiny, he neccesarily allowed for the possibility, leaving the result to a collassaul “roll of the cosmic dice.” I think that is highly dangerous and cruel for God to do such a thing as that.

Well, we already know that’s not going to happen. Undoubtedly, some of us have already gone to heaven.

Now this state of affairs I just described does not tell the whole story, because God is omniesceint. The problem is that, if God does not “roll the dice,” he instead deterimines the outcome. He can’t have it both ways. Either God let’s man decide his destiny, or God decides it for man.

Well thought out and well stated.

So indeed, the question remains, what criterion does God use to decide which universe to make actual? Is a fallen universe “better” than a universe that is not fallen? I can see that possibly yes, but only if every one who falls eventually makes it back to God.

Well, He Created the “unfallen” universe first. But, then, we fell.

The real question is, how is it that a universe where there are people in hell is better than a universe with only people in heaven? (with the possibiliy of hell remaining, just nobody choosing it).

I don’t think Angels and humans can do that . . . and own their own copy of unlimited free will at the same time. We’re are definitionally (and, actually) “imperfect.”

The one answer which I often hear to this question is that in order for God to give us the full gift of free will, and the full gift of heaven, a necessary consequence would be that some might refuse that gift.

Yes.

But I come back to my other point, what if God provided for heaven, but nobody ended up choosing it?? Would the mere existence of heaven, (albeit empty) be a justification for trillions of people in hell?? I think not.

But, that has not happened, in our Time … but, God already knew that would be the case.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Well this is the best explanation I’ve seen so far, and Thank you much for it, but I still find it utterly unacceptable for a loving God to act like this. I am spending time coming up with some reasoned arguments, but for now, Consider this.

How is it that I could ever want to have children, to freely will to engage in human procreation, given the above quote.???

Sly:

We are told that we each have an affirmative responsibility to bring people to God. We may, or may not, be able to affect some of the atheists, in this forum, but, if a child is brought up properly and well, that child has better odds of obtaining Heaven than not. God has provided more than sufficient gates through which one can travel, to ultimately get to Heaven. Also, God has given us an affirmative “demand,” if not a “command,” to go out and populate. Part of our “tests,” as you, I think, termed it, is to affirmatively bring people to God, whether our children or others.

For if God choose to give me a child whom he KNEW would freely choose hell, I feel I could never forgive myself for bringing a precious child into the world, only to have him/her choose HELL as a foregone conclusion, that I could have prevented had I not been married or had sex. (I am not married btw, and as of now, would have a very hard time considering Catholic marriage because of this issue)

Would Protestant, or Jewish, marriage be any different?

That is, I by not engaging in human procreation, could prevent a soul from choosing hell. why would I not want to do this?? And if it is the case that more than half of all men choose hell, my odds are good that I really am preventing the eternal suffering of somebody by not having kids.

True. You wouldn’t have any kids . . . but, you’re not necessarily off the hook.

Of course people will say that existence, even existence in hell, is better than non-existence, but I just don’t buy that; its too theoretical. If given a choice right now, between non-existence(annihilation) and hell, I would certainly choose annihilation, because then I would not have to suffer for eternity.

That’ll pass.

If you all can’t tell, this issue is much more to me than an intellectual curiosity. The issues of free will, and of hell in particular, are for me a huge stumbling block to my faith. I feel a profound anger at God for creating me, and for putting me up to this test. This anger, combined with OCD obsessive thoughts about a judgemental God, thoughts about my own sinfulness, and thoughts about the real possibility of hell, make it nearly impossible for me to form a thought in prayer, or to have any positive feelings about God.

You probably won’t be surprised when I tell you that you’re not alone. Marriage, and children, is not a pure pleasure game. Sorry, it comes with responsibilities. And, you must know that you might fail.

This is a dark time for you. Many of us have also been through one, or, more of them. Think rather, about the indescribable joys of watching loved ones achieve proximity to Heaven, and God.

God bless,
jd

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Many of us have also been through one, or, more of them. Think rather, about the indescribable joys of watching loved ones achieve proximity to Heaven, and God.

God bless,
jd

I think that this can perhaps be formed in to a good argument.

1.Catholics hold God to be the source of all true goodness and happiness.

1. Thus if one has a heart set against serving the will of God, although they might not want to suffer hell, they will necessarily experience the absence of true goodness, moral fulfillment, and happiness in the presence of God, simply because their hearts are opposed to that which is the source of all true happiness. They do not love God with all their hearts. Thus no amount of suffering in the absence of God can cause somebody to love God, because despite their suffering they do not want to love God; and thus God cannot give them the sufficient grace they require to be free of hell. They reject it. In fact, the more they suffer the more they will curse God for not being a slave to their will and wants. It says so in the bible.
2. Some say that God is evil for creating beings with freewill because they can use that freedom to enter hell.
3. But love does not create merely for the sake of the individual. God creates for the sake of the community; community being a natural expression of love. Thus there will be those, the human community, who will be called to suffer in this life for the sake of the greater good of those who are yet to be born in to the human community, according to Gods plan. Suffering is a vocation.
4. Some will refuse to take up the cross of the suffering Jesus, not seeing the value of the good that is willed for the sake of their brothers, and they will shun him in-order to serve the self (Jesus on the cross represents the truest form of humanity, since in sacrifice we see a true expression of love which is God; and we are all called to be vessels of God), and by doing so they reject the greater good of the human community (which is the love of God).
5. A truly good person will sacrifice themselves for their brothers and sisters. A truly good person will suffer in this life and will grandly receive all manner of infliction for the sake of their brothers and sisters.
6. By rejecting freewill man rejects the actuality of that sacrifice.
7. Thus if God truly loves those in heaven, why should he deny the existence of those who freely choose heaven/eternal happiness, for the sake of never bringing into existence those who freely choose hell?
8. It seems evident enough to me that God would not be love if he where not willing to make a sacrifice for the sake of those in heaven; since heaven is greatest good for mankind, and thus Gods will necessarily, by his loving nature, will preserve the greatest good. This means the preservation of those in heaven other those who choose to reject heaven and make war with God. Why should those in heaven suffer the fate of not existing simply because man does not want to serve God? Would not a just God preserve those who choose heaven? I think a Just God would preserve the people of heaven.

These people are called the “Elect”.

The evil in man will naturally feel offended by the idea of the elect. They will be jealous and they will hate the elect. This is natural because we know there is a possibility that we will not be among the elect and thus we become insecure in our faith. The evil man who hates God also hates the saint and will naturally wish that we were never created rather than have the elect take our place in heaven. Surely we would rather believe there were no God than think that we deserve hell; or perhaps we will reinvent a God that better suits our selfish wants. Even the evil in my heart feels offended. But still the honesty in me through the grace of God knows that God is just.

 

[Poustinia]

How is it that I could ever want to have children, to freely will to engage in human procreation, given the above quote.???

For if God choose to give me a child whom he KNEW would freely choose hell, I feel I could never forgive myself for bringing a precious child into the world, only to have him/her choose HELL as a foregone conclusion, that I could have prevented had I not been married or had sex. (I am not married btw, and as of now, would have a very hard time considering Catholic marriage because of this issue)

That is, I by not engaging in human procreation, could prevent a soul from choosing hell. why would I not want to do this?? And if it is the case that more than half of all men choose hell, my odds are good that I really am preventing the eternal suffering of somebody by not having kids.

Of course people will say that existence, even existence in hell, is better than non-existence, but I just don’t buy that; its too theoretical. If given a choice right now, between non-existence(annihilation) and hell, I would certainly choose annihilation, because then I would not have to suffer for eternity.

If you all can’t tell, this issue is much more to me than an intellectual curiosity. The issues of free will, and of hell in particular, are for me a huge stumbling block to my faith. I feel a profound anger at God for creating me, and for putting me up to this test. This anger, combined with OCD obsessive thoughts about a judgemental God, thoughts about my own sinfulness, and thoughts about the real possibility of hell, make it nearly impossible for me to form a thought in prayer, or to have any positive feelings about God.

Dear slywakka250,

I had an experience when I had lots of anger and obsessive thoughts. I went into a clinical depression. I’m not saying that you are in depression but it is something to watch for. Avoid all sorts of sugar, alcohol and if possible antibiotics, eat healthy well balanced meals, and don’t overdo the starches during this stressful time.

It was years later, through a consolation in prayer and being engaged to someone, that I truly discovered the reason that I went into depression. It was because my future spouse had procured an abortion and that mortal sin caused us to lose our beautiful vocation to marriage.

We know that God forgives mortal sins when we ask for forgiveness and the slate is wiped clean. But remember, the slate is wiped clean. By the mortal sin we lose things which we may have other wise merited (like a spouse, a job, a vocation, a relationship, etc…).

We are all connected to each other in the body of Christ and when one sins all are affected. Though I had not sinned, I too, lost my vocation.

Some years later after my initial depression I started to go into depression again. I didn’t want it to happen. I went to confession and got prayed over (people laid their hands on me and prayed for me). I was desperately not wanting to go into depression and I sincerely wanted to trust God, but felt helpless to actually trust Him. He honoured this and healed me of the depression.

It might be helpful to pray for your vocation and offer to God thanksgiving and praise and gratitude in the midst of trials, even if you don’t feel like it. Feelings don’t give us objective information about a situation, they only indicate how we feel. And they can often blind us to what is true.

I hope this helps.

BTW very interesting thread!

[SIGN]God bless![/SIGN]
Poustinia

 

[Redbaron998]

I have been getting more and more interested in this subject and have always liked St. Francis de Sales since he dealt alot with Calvanists and I know many, Thanks for the info.