What is consciousness and subconsciousness?

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That is in fact a very good starting.

For green part you need a sence of judgement which requires a thought process. Do you agree? If yes, who does that? God or you?
I think that the thought process involving judgment come from the conscience, which is formed by the Holy Spirit.

If God interrupted His spirit for one brief moment, I believe that not only would all our thoughts cease, but that we would drop dead or simply cease to exist physically. I do not know where, but I believe that the CC teaches that God that actually sustains us and that this teaching is consistent with all my posts on this thread.

LOVE! ❤️
 
I don’t believe in dual process theory since your consciousness needs to work in paralel in order to process a ration thought, unfortunately it is serial so it cannot be handel rational thinking. Moreover animal also make rational decision like when a lion attack a herd. They of course pick up their prey among many.
You might not be able to drive a car and listen to the radio and talk to the passenger and keep your heart going all at the same time. But the rest of us can.

It was Aristotle who singled out humans as the only rational animals. But who is Aristotle compared with mighty Bahman?

You asked a question and I gave the best explanation that the professionals have. They have done a lot of work on this. But who are they compared with mighty Bahman?

:hmmm:
 
…Umm… you do realize that that agrees with me right…? Read it slowly.

“God moves our thoughts and wills or we would not have thoughts and wills” - agree with my segment about our dependance on God for existence.

“But he doesn’t do it deterministaclly, allow us initiative and free will.” - agree with my segment about how we have free will and have to chose to enact it…

This statement is basically exactly what I said, and yet you’re trying to claim that it doesn’t… Either you misunderstood, or you are being intellectually dishonest. I’ll assume the former.
Well, then there is a big misunderstaning here. Let me ask you this question: Do you have any will? Acording to what you say the answer is no. Since that is God who move your thoughts. You however need a sense of judgment supported with will to decide in a situation and if you don’t have any will then you have no sensce of judgment then how you could be free?
A series of governing laws do not dictate the final outcome.
It does. What is your defintion of law?
For example, take into consideration a random number generator. It has a series of principles that it operates on, but it will (almost) always output a different number each time it is asked.
We only have psedo-random generator which depends on a seed that a agent feed into algorithm in a given time. Give the same seed and it always produce the same series for you.
Furthermore, the basic governing principles only dictated the way something works (like the game system for an RPG for example, which gives the rules, the skills, what stats mean, etc.). It does not determine how the working object will be put to use. (in the RPG analogy, this is how the player plays the RPG, as a mage or a warrior, or whatever)
This example does make no sense. Law of nature is different from what you are mentioning here. Consider a system which it has N degree of freedom, lets call, D={d1,…dn}. A set of laws, lets call it L operator, is defined as an operator which uniquely change the state D to D’=L(D). D’ has to be unique because otherwise L is now law.
 
I think that the thought process involving judgment come from the conscience, which is formed by the Holy Spirit.

If God interrupted His spirit for one brief moment, I believe that not only would all our thoughts cease, but that we would drop dead or simply cease to exist physically. I do not know where, but I believe that the CC teaches that God that actually sustains us and that this teaching is consistent with all my posts on this thread.

LOVE! ❤️
Then you have no free will my friend.
 
You might not be able to drive a car and listen to the radio and talk to the passenger and keep your heart going all at the same time. But the rest of us can.

It was Aristotle who singled out humans as the only rational animals. But who is Aristotle compared with mighty Bahman?

You asked a question and I gave the best explanation that the professionals have. They have done a lot of work on this. But who are they compared with mighty Bahman?

:hmmm:
I was talking about rational thought and not driving car. How many thought you could process in the same time? One. So consioucness acts serial when it comes to thoguht hence it cannot handel rational thinking which requires handeling several component.
 
I was talking about rational thought and not driving car. How many thought you could process in the same time? One. So consioucness acts serial when it comes to thoguht hence it cannot handel rational thinking which requires handeling several component.
Most all humans can process between 5-9 bits of information within their immediate memory, simultaneously; being told a new phone number, for example. That’s really puny compared to a computer.

LOVE! ❤️
 
Then you have no free will my friend.
I have not a clue how you arrived at that from what I had written, but I do tend to believe that our free will is much more limited than most people are willing to admit.

LOVE! ❤️
 
I was talking about rational thought and not driving car. How many thought you could process in the same time? One. So consioucness acts serial when it comes to thoguht hence it cannot handel rational thinking which requires handeling several component.
Earlier you said a lion picking out its prey is being rational. Now you say a human driving a car, for instance deciding how to get across town, is not rational.

And just because your focus of attention is only conscious of one thought at a time doesn’t mean that other thoughts stop. You are mistaking subjective illusion for objective reality.

But by all means ignore everyone who has worked on this from Aristotle onwards.
 
Well, then there is a big misunderstaning here. Let me ask you this question: Do you have any will? Acording to what you say the answer is no. Since that is God who move your thoughts. You however need a sense of judgment supported with will to decide in a situation and if you don’t have any will then you have no sensce of judgment then how you could be free?
Okay, I take it back. You’re being willfully ignorant. I have clearly defined, twice, the distinction bwtween “moves” and “controls.” I’m not going to answer this… again… because I have done so twice already. Pay better attention to what is written. Then again, I’ve given you this advice in at least three other threads, and you’ve yet to heed it, so why do I bother?

It does. What is your defintion of law?
We only have psedo-random generator which depends on a seed that a agent feed into algorithm in a given time. Give the same seed and it always produce the same series for you.
That’s what -we- have managed to come up with. We’re dealing with the theoretical here in pretty much every other aspect of this post, so why shouldn’t I be able to rely on a theoretical true RNG, which is not based on a seed? (Keep in mind, that a computer RNG is only our closest approximation to a true RNG, which is more akin to rolling dice, or flipping a coin (n) times.)
This example does make no sense. Law of nature is different from what you are mentioning here. Consider a system which it has N degree of freedom, lets call, D={d1,…dn}. A set of laws, lets call it L operator, is defined as an operator which uniquely change the state D to D’=L(D). D’ has to be unique because otherwise L is now law.
You’re attempt to use math here is, quite frankly, stupid. Sorry, but there’s no other word for it. While the laws may be limited in their definition({d1…dn} in your estimation), and the operator L may be constant, you completely ignore the most important aspect of my explanation, the entire point that I was trying to make. {d1…dn} can be applied in different ways by different L’s, or even by the same L’s There is no valid reason to place a limitation on n, because there is no way that you can account for every possible eventuality that will ever exist. A gaming law may be that “Fire damages what it touches” In a given scenario, L may use fire to attack their enemy. In another, L may use fire to cut the ropes supporting a set of logs, which then role down and damage the enemy. It’s the same {d}, and the same L, but the use of {d} is entirely different. There are, literally, an infinite number of examples I could come up with. You cannot simply place an arbitrary limitation where non is capable of existing in an attempt to make a point. In order for a point to be valid, its basis has to be valid. Your assertion that n has a limit is invalid, and so, therefore, is your point.

The following segment is not intended to apply to the debate, and therefore does not classify as an ad-hominim attack:

Bahaman, you have made dozens of these topics, poorly attempting to apply misunderstood and misapplied logic to theology in an attempt to make some vague point. You never provide adequate support for your point, and you never address real problems in your logic as they are pointed out; and I’m done dealing with it. There is no point in arguing with you because, no matter how valid the point, you either ignore the core of it (as you did with my gaming laws analogy) or purposefully misrepresent it or limit the scenario in ways which were not properly defined to begin with (as you did with my RNG example) to avoid the issue. You have done this in every topic that I’ve bothered engaging with you in. You are not open to intelligent discussion, and are only here to soapbox. It’s been fun, but I’m not going to waste my time anymore. I hope that one day you decide to genuinely seek understanding. It’s a much better pursuit than whatever it is you’re doing now.

God Bless, I’m out.
 
ProdiglArchitect,

You summed up Bahman pretty well. 👍 😃

He confuses everything to keep some kind of “dialogue” :confused: going.
The truth means nothing. It’s all a game.
It’s easy to do this. It requires no talent.
It’s nothing to admire, and how Bahman thinks it makes him somebody special is beyond me. 🤷
 
Okay, I take it back. You’re being willfully ignorant. I have clearly defined, twice, the distinction bwtween “moves” and “controls.” I’m not going to answer this… again… because I have done so twice already. Pay better attention to what is written. Then again, I’ve given you this advice in at least three other threads, and you’ve yet to heed it, so why do I bother?
So in your opinion, God does move and we do have control. That I already got it. You however didn’t answer my questions. Your old point of view which is of course not your view fails to address the following points:
  1. What is the need for all the complexity in human body if God does the move and we do the control? Simple, create a black box, feed it with (name removed by moderator)ut and allow it to decide and then move things accordingly. Do you believe that we are living in a matrix?
  2. In order to have the control you have to have the ability to make distinction between options that are available to you and choose accordingly. The former in your view is even given by God since you are left with only option of choice. The act of choice however needs a move to make a decision between choices hence you cannot make a choice since you cannot make a move.
It does. What is your defintion of law?
I have already defined law. Law by definition is an operator which uniquely define state of affair give the initial state.
That’s what -we- have managed to come up with. We’re dealing with the theoretical here in pretty much every other aspect of this post, so why shouldn’t I be able to rely on a theoretical true RNG, which is not based on a seed? (Keep in mind, that a computer RNG is only our closest approximation to a true RNG, which is more akin to rolling dice, or flipping a coin (n) times.)
Rolling the dice or flipping a coin is not a true random generator since one can guess the outcome given the exact initial state. Moreover, Thomas did not believe in randomness as far as I recall so I don’t understand why his followers do.
You’re attempt to use math here is, quite frankly, stupid. Sorry, but there’s no other word for it. While the laws may be limited in their definition({d1…dn} in your estimation), and the operator L may be constant, you completely ignore the most important aspect of my explanation, the entire point that I was trying to make. {d1…dn} can be applied in different ways by different L’s, or even by the same L’s There is no valid reason to place a limitation on n, because there is no way that you can account for every possible eventuality that will ever exist. A gaming law may be that “Fire damages what it touches” In a given scenario, L may use fire to attack their enemy. In another, L may use fire to cut the ropes supporting a set of logs, which then role down and damage the enemy. It’s the same {d}, and the same L, but the use of {d} is entirely different. There are, literally, an infinite number of examples I could come up with. You cannot simply place an arbitrary limitation where non is capable of existing in an attempt to make a point. In order for a point to be valid, its basis has to be valid. Your assertion that n has a limit is invalid, and so, therefore, is your point.
L is unique. And N has to be finite if we live in a finite universe otherwise it is infinite. You are not making any point in your large paragraph. Could you please be short and consize?
 
ProdiglArchitect,

You summed up Bahman pretty well. 👍 😃

He confuses everything to keep some kind of “dialogue” :confused: going.
The truth means nothing. It’s all a game.
It’s easy to do this. It requires no talent.
It’s nothing to admire, and how Bahman thinks it makes him somebody special is beyond me. 🤷
He indeed didn’t make any point. 😃
 
Earlier you said a lion picking out its prey is being rational.
I said they make a decision. Whether they make rational thinking as we may never know.
Now you say a human driving a car, for instance deciding how to get across town, is not rational.
I am interested in rational thought before they become a habit. Like thinking about a new subject matter. I believe that we cannot think on two new subject matter at the same time.
And just because your focus of attention is only conscious of one thought at a time doesn’t mean that other thoughts stop. You are mistaking subjective illusion for objective reality.
So they are processed in subconscious mind. My question however is that why we need any conscious experience if all thoughts could be processed in subconscious mind?
 
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