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JLFuller
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Read what I said above.
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Insomniac
Guest
Can they miraculously heal and cast out demons?The apostles in His Church are twelve men who have the very same authority and responcibilities to lead and direct the affairs of the Church just as did the apostles in Christ’s time.
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twopekinguys
Guest
I just find it hard to believe that God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would change their minds on things.Read what I said above.
I mean let’s look at it this way, they have all of the power. They can’t lose. Basically, it is Their way or the highway (to hell). Why would God change what he has spoken?
Could you please answer the question in my post about when your church believes life begins, as in doctrine.
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JLFuller
Guest
They say it begins at the moment of quickening. When that is I don’t know.I think it applies across the board, not just abortion. If that point of your doctrine can be changed so easily, then why can’t any point?
But since we are on the subject of abortion. Does your church believe that life begins at conception, or at birth?
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hosemonkey
Guest
I just find it hard to believe that God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would change their minds on things.
Resolved:I mean let’s look at it this way, they have all of the power. They can’t lose. Basically, it is Their way or the highway (to hell). Why would God change what he has spoken?
That trying to pin mormons down on what their “doctrine” is, or trying to get straight answers on any tough question is like catching smoke or nailing jello to the wall. It just will not happen. I don’t think that the Old Men of Salt Lake City even know what they believe from one day to the next. As to living “prophets” and “apostles” with the same powers possessed by the originals, not even close. Seniority and longevity is the key there. No special holiness is needed, just be a member of the “insiders” and up you go. mormonism is both rigid in it’s control of it’s members and loose as a goose in it’s “doctrines” and beliefs.
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twopekinguys
Guest
You have to admit, that is rather vague, and leaves it wide open for interpretation. (correctly, or incorrectly)They say it begins at the moment of quickening. When that is I don’t know.
It is almost like they are leaving it vague, so it can be interpreted as needed based on the current social climate.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Yes, guidance like “Ask the Holy Ghost for permission to kill your baby. He may say yes.”If you are absolutist in the abortion debate then likely not. That is why God has a living prophet. We need someone to give us guidance on these matters.
Nice.
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hosemonkey
Guest
You have to admit, that is rather vague, and leaves it wide open for interpretation. (correctly, or incorrectly)
“Quickening” is a medieval term meaning when the mother first feels the child move. Generally around the forth or fifth month. We now know that the child’s heart begins to beat at around ten days after conception. The child is alive. The child is a person. At ten weeks the child is a perfectly formed human, with fingers and toes and everything operating. No doubts medically that this is a human being, only time and growth is necessary for this child to be born. What is so hard about that? So when does human life begin? At the instant of conception! If left undisturbed, those two cells, sperm and egg, will be a human child. Full stop. Abortion at any point in that process, kills a human child. Not so hard to understand, mormons? Is that fact so hard to grasp?It is almost like they are leaving it vague, so it can be interpreted as needed based on the current social climate.
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twopekinguys
Guest
LOL, I knew I didn’t like jello for a reason.Resolved:
That trying to pin mormons down on what their “doctrine” is, or trying to get straight answers on any tough question is like catching smoke or nailing jello to the wall. It just will not happen. I don’t think that the Old Men of Salt Lake City even know what they believe from one day to the next. As to living “prophets” and “apostles” with the same powers possessed by the originals, not even close. Seniority and longevity is the key there. No special holiness is needed, just be a member of the “insiders” and up you go. mormonism is both rigid in it’s control of it’s members and loose as a goose in it’s “doctrines” and beliefs.
It does kind of seem like interpretation of lds doctrine is based on what the social climate is at the time on a particular issue.
Which to me is very sad.
J
JLFuller
Guest
Yes. There are also stories of raising the dead.Can they miraculously heal and cast out demons?
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twopekinguys
Guest
I agree completely“Quickening” is a medieval term meaning when the mother first feels the child move. Generally around the forth or fifth month. We now know that the child’s heart begins to beat at around ten days after conception. The child is alive. The child is a person. At ten weeks the child is a perfectly formed human, with fingers and toes and everything operating. No doubts medically that this is a human being, only time and growth is necessary for this child to be born. What is so hard about that? So when does human life begin? At the instant of conception! If left undisturbed, those two cells, sperm and egg, will be a human child. Full stop. Abortion at any point in that process, kills a human child. Not so hard to understand, mormons? Is that fact so hard to grasp?
This is one case where I wouldn’t mind seeing the mormons changing their doctrine. Maybe to something in straight forward language that states life begins at conception.
At least the Catholic church has it in straight forward language in the CCC. It may not be popular decision with modern society, but the Church has taken a stand, and you know what it is.
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JLFuller
Guest
You are asking someone who does not know. As far as I know it has not been addressed but I could be wrong. I know the Church forbids abortion on demand for sociological or convenience sake and will excommunicate those who do so.You have to admit, that is rather vague, and leaves it wide open for interpretation. (correctly, or incorrectly)
It is almost like they are leaving it vague, so it can be interpreted as needed based on the current social climate.
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JLFuller
Guest
For those who didn’t read it the first time I will copy and paste again.
“Of course doctrine changes. But doctrine is not man made. Its made with the authority of Christ. This is not just any other man made religious denomination that broke off of something else. This is the literal restoration of Jesus Christ’s church that He established 2000 years ago. Jesus Christ is the actual living day-to-day leader of this Church. I know that is difficult for most non-LDS to accept but it is true. Jesus Christ leads this church through constant daily communication to His living prophet and living apostles on the earth. He does this through the power of the Holy Ghost. The real honest-to-goodness prophet of God on the earth today is Thomas S. Monson. The apostles in His Church are twelve men who have the very same authority and responcibilities to lead and direct the affairs of the Church just as did the apostles in Christ’s time. Jesus Christ selected these men just has He did his original apostels 2000 years ago. He leads them and directs them directly through the power of the Holy Ghost. When they speak in the authority of their office it is with the authority of Jesus Christ. When they sdpeak it is just like Paul or JOhn or Peter spoke in Christ’s time. Just as they had authority to speak for Christ these living apostles have that same authority to speak for Christ today. It is just as binding in heaven as if Christ spoke it.”
“Of course doctrine changes. But doctrine is not man made. Its made with the authority of Christ. This is not just any other man made religious denomination that broke off of something else. This is the literal restoration of Jesus Christ’s church that He established 2000 years ago. Jesus Christ is the actual living day-to-day leader of this Church. I know that is difficult for most non-LDS to accept but it is true. Jesus Christ leads this church through constant daily communication to His living prophet and living apostles on the earth. He does this through the power of the Holy Ghost. The real honest-to-goodness prophet of God on the earth today is Thomas S. Monson. The apostles in His Church are twelve men who have the very same authority and responcibilities to lead and direct the affairs of the Church just as did the apostles in Christ’s time. Jesus Christ selected these men just has He did his original apostels 2000 years ago. He leads them and directs them directly through the power of the Holy Ghost. When they speak in the authority of their office it is with the authority of Jesus Christ. When they sdpeak it is just like Paul or JOhn or Peter spoke in Christ’s time. Just as they had authority to speak for Christ these living apostles have that same authority to speak for Christ today. It is just as binding in heaven as if Christ spoke it.”
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twopekinguys
Guest
That’s interesting. Do you have any of the who, what, when, where, how?Yes. There are also stories of raising the dead.
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JLFuller
Guest
It was a story about a young girl named Jensen and occured in Utah about 1890 -1900 plus or minus a few years. But that isn’t the only one. It is just the only one I can recall at this moment. I will go dig it out of my library. It may be a while before I can do that though.That’s interesting. Do you have any of the who, what, when, where, how?
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PaulDupre
Guest
I am convinced that the Old Men in Salt Lake City don’t believe any of this. They know full well that Mormonism is a crock. They are businessmen, plain and simple. They will teach, at any given time, that which is calculated to bring in the most converts and retain the most members (aka: tithe-payers). That is why Mormon doctrine changes so rapidly.I don’t think that the Old Men of Salt Lake City even know what they believe from one day to the next.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Bingo. Give that man a cigar!You have to admit, that is rather vague, and leaves it wide open for interpretation. (correctly, or incorrectly)
It is almost like they are leaving it vague, so it can be interpreted as needed based on the current social climate.
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PaulDupre
Guest
How would the LDS church know that the abortion was not done “prayerfully, with confirmation from the Holy Ghost”?You are asking someone who does not know. As far as I know it has not been addressed but I could be wrong. I know the Church forbids abortion on demand for sociological or convenience sake and will excommunicate those who do so.
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PaulDupre
Guest
So then, you don’t believe only what is canonized in scripture, but also what the living prophet teaches? I agree that that is the true and historical LDS position. But you and zerinus and the other LDS need to get together and reach a concensus, because many of them would disagree with you on that.For those who didn’t read it the first time I will copy and paste again.
“Of course doctrine changes. But doctrine is not man made. Its made with the authority of Christ. This is not just any other man made religious denomination that broke off of something else. This is the literal restoration of Jesus Christ’s church that He established 2000 years ago. Jesus Christ is the actual living day-to-day leader of this Church. I know that is difficult for most non-LDS to accept but it is true. Jesus Christ leads this church through constant daily communication to His living prophet and living apostles on the earth. He does this through the power of the Holy Ghost. The real honest-to-goodness prophet of God on the earth today is Thomas S. Monson. The apostles in His Church are twelve men who have the very same authority and responcibilities to lead and direct the affairs of the Church just as did the apostles in Christ’s time. Jesus Christ selected these men just has He did his original apostels 2000 years ago. He leads them and directs them directly through the power of the Holy Ghost. When they speak in the authority of their office it is with the authority of Jesus Christ. When they sdpeak it is just like Paul or JOhn or Peter spoke in Christ’s time. Just as they had authority to speak for Christ these living apostles have that same authority to speak for Christ today. It is just as binding in heaven as if Christ spoke it.”
Of course, that still leaves the problem of the horrible things your previous living prophets taught about Adam-God, blood atonement, the inferiority of black people, polygamy necessary for exaltation, etc.
Were those teachings as binding in heaven as if Christ spoke them?
J
Jash
Guest
Why would the church need to know?How would the LDS church know that the abortion was not done “prayerfully, with confirmation from the Holy Ghost”?
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