What is culpability?

  • Thread starter Thread starter OneSheep
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

OneSheep

Guest
Hi Folks,

Here is the Catholic definition:

CULPABLE
Definition

Morally responsible for an evil action. Culpability assumes sufficient awareness and (internal) consent to the evil done. It is identified with formal guilt or sin. (Etym. Latin culpabilis, blameworthy; from culpare, to blame.)

The etymology is “blameworthy”, worthy of blame. A paradox begins to come into play, because we are called to understand and forgive. In the process of understanding, we can come to see that people do not know what they are doing when they sin; they are blind or ignorant. However, the definition of culpable assumes “sufficient awareness”, and if we want to find a person culpable, we resist understanding such blindness or ignorance.

Therefore, does the definition itself discourage understanding? If so, does the definition contradict the call to forgive? Does a designation of “blameworthiness” give us permission to blame? After all, are there not many discussions about when a person is/is not “culpable”?
 
Excellent answer OneSheep. However if you don’t mind I would like to respond to your (rhetorical?) questions as I understand them. No to the first question. For we do not fully comprehend the amount of offense towards God in even the least of venial sins. It is our duty to know and love God. Those who do not attempt this, do not care or have deluded themselves in thinking they are ok with God. Therefore culpable is justified on the understanding of those who knew better and those who don’t through omission of their duties.
As to the second question, did not our Lord and Savior, from the cross ask for forgiveness, from His Father for even those who did not ask for it? If we would follow Christ, then we would (or at least attempt to) forgive all infractions, bearing in mind it does not negate some sort of recompense or punishment for the given infraction.
As to the third and fourth, a little stickier. But if one is in doubt, one should ask themselves what was the intent and the operation of the thought, word or deed in question. And if the ambiguity of its nature is still paramount, then one should give due diligence and seek the answer from a source that leaves no misunderstandings.
 
Excellent answer OneSheep. However if you don’t mind I would like to respond to your (rhetorical?) questions as I understand them. No to the first question. For we do not fully comprehend the amount of offense towards God in even the least of venial sins. It is our duty to know and love God. Those who do not attempt this, do not care or have deluded themselves in thinking they are ok with God. Therefore culpable is justified on the understanding of those who knew better and those who don’t through omission of their duties.
As to the second question, did not our Lord and Savior, from the cross ask for forgiveness, from His Father for even those who did not ask for it? If we would follow Christ, then we would (or at least attempt to) forgive all infractions, bearing in mind it does not negate some sort of recompense or punishment for the given infraction.
As to the third and fourth, a little stickier. But if one is in doubt, one should ask themselves what was the intent and the operation of the thought, word or deed in question. And if the ambiguity of its nature is still paramount, then one should give due diligence and seek the answer from a source that leaves no misunderstandings.
Hello Jack,

First of all, welcome to the CAF! 🙂 May you join me creating a charitable community of people seeking Truth.

I am not seeking to pique anyone’s emotions, so not rhetorical. (Though many will take them that way.) The issue at hand is if someone wants to blame someone else, he is naturally going to resist any effort at understanding.

And yes, from the cross Jesus encouraged us to forgive, He gave us the means to forgive by seeing people’s ignorance/blindness, and He did so without any requirement of repentance from the crowd. He makes it clear that He did not blame in the worst of circumstances.

The definition of “culpable” gives us the means by which we can find someone “blameworthy”, but “blame” is exactly what Jesus is calling us to avoid doing, and to instead forgive. Therefore, to find someone “culpable” or to describe how we could find ourselves or someone else “culpable” appears to contradict what Jesus is calling us to do in the first place. The definition does not describe such finding of culpability as a human reaction that we are to overcome.

In Spanish, one word for forgiveness is “desculpar” (dis-blame). In order to dis-blame, we can find people’s blindness/ignorance, which is what Jesus did. If we cannot find good intent, it appears that we are called to continue seeking. To stop such an endeavor and say “he is culpable” seems to fall short. Just “thinking aloud” here… 🙂

Thanks for your response!
 
I’m not sure if understanding is necessary in forgiveness. Forgiveness is a gift given to a person who has done something wrong to you. You may not understand why they did it but you still forgive them. For example someone says something very hurtful to you, and later on he comes to you and says I’m sorry I said that to you. In order for you to forgive it doesn’t matter how much you understand that person. It doesn’t matter if the guy has a serious psychological issue that caused him to act in that way, you can still forgive them if you have no idea about that.

I think understanding helps in reconciling with the person, when making amends with a person it is important to understand why they may have done that thing so as to avoid that situation in the future.

But onto culpability. Culpability theologically simple has to do with a persons freedom to be able to choose an action. I’m no moral theologian but from what I understand is that for someone to be morally culpable, they must have been able to choose otherwise and there is no internal or external force causing them to act in this way. (someone may be able to give a better definition.) For example, I enjoy a few adult beverages from time to time, I can stop drinking after one drink. If I were to get drunk than I’m culpable for that action, I could have chosen to stop drinking before getting drunk. Now if I hit someone when I’m drunk I’m not fully culpable for hitting that person because my freedom to choose when drunk is less. Now someone who is an Alcoholic meaning they are dependent on alcohol, they are not culpable for getting drunk in the same way a non-alcoholic would be. I would actually argue that an alcoholic wouldn’t commit a mortal sin by getting drunk because he has little to no control on how much he drinks.

Culpability is important in determining many things in the moral life, and it is a complicated issue. But to put it simply the way I understand it is that for someone to be culpable they must have the freedom to choose otherwise. Sin by our nature reduces our freedom, when would that cross into no longer a mortal sin category I have no idea. I’ll leave that up to the moral theologians to figure out.

edit: one last note, I’m very interested in addiction and culpability. The reason is I know there are many people out there who are addicted to things, porn especially. I want to know what the line is when someone goes from culpable for their acting out in an addiction to not culpable. To put it simply if a teen comes into the confessional and asks me, am I committing a moral sin when I look at porn? While each situation will differ I want to know how much culpability is required for a mortal sin. (I don’t think the Church is clear on this matter because it is a difficult subject. I know there will be a multitude of opinions on this forum, but I’ll say: this while I would love to discuss it here, I’m going to leave it to my teachers to figure out the answer to this question.)
 
Thank you OneSheep first for the welcome and second for the clarifying that up for me. Invariably if there is more than one connotation available I always seem to choose…poorly. Never worry about hurting my feelings. I have more than enough to last me the rest of my life. If one gets hurt or destroyed, I can get another. I tend to be a little more hard lined in my thinking, yes-no, right-wrong, black-white. Not a real fan of the grey area. I do know that when we get judged there will be no grey area’s. That being said I agree with (if understanding the gist here) that showing charity and patience towards our neighbor is extremely important. But as to our selves, (I believe) we should be the harshest of judges, not to the point of being scrupulous, but so that we can be more pleasing to God.
Once again thank you for taking the time to instruct me.

Catholictiger. Hello. Enjoyed your post. I’m going to get straight to the point. Though a cradle Catholic, I have lived most of teenage years and adult life as anything but Catholic. I’m 52 and understand some of the issues with alcohol and sins of impurity. They can be conquered but one must realize that the temptations will always be there. Unbidden thoughts and desires of getting drunk or other bad things will always plague me. This is both a punishment and a reminder. The punishment is the temptation to commit an evil. The reminder is that in times of temptation, we MUST petition God for the grace to resist it.
If we resist it, we glorify God and gain graces. God gave us the capability to choose but not the permission, if you will, to sin.
It is explained both in the Baltimore Catechism and by the priest in a confessional, or in giving a sermon, that we must avoid the occasions of sin. Sins of impurity are especially difficult to overcome. God gave us the inclinations towards sex in both the physical and psychological aspects, that being part of our nature. This is why sins of impurity are so common. Good habits, going to confession and mass, praying ones daily rosary and saying our morning and night prayers, are the strongest ways to help combat this.
When unbidden thoughts (of impurity) occur we are better helped by distracting our attention to something else than trying to battle it head on. If we get rid of a bad thing something good must take its place, if not, one normally ends up worse off than before. I know. I’ve been there.
Thank you both and may God Bless you and yours.
 
Hi Folks,

Here is the Catholic definition:

CULPABLE
Definition

Morally responsible for an evil action. Culpability assumes sufficient awareness and (internal) consent to the evil done. It is identified with formal guilt or sin. (Etym. Latin culpabilis, blameworthy; from culpare, to blame.)

The etymology is “blameworthy”, worthy of blame. A paradox begins to come into play, because we are called to understand and forgive. In the process of understanding, we can come to see that people do not know what they are doing when they sin; they are blind or ignorant. However, the definition of culpable assumes “sufficient awareness”, and if we want to find a person culpable, we resist understanding such blindness or ignorance.

Therefore, does the definition itself discourage understanding? If so, does the definition contradict the call to forgive? Does a designation of “blameworthiness” give us permission to blame? After all, are there not many discussions about when a person is/is not “culpable”?
To forgive is to to give up all claim to punish or exact penalty for an offense. So forgiveness applies when someone has offended. Sometimes an offense is unintentional, but this would not be true of negligence born of disregard. “Father … forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.”
 
Hello Vico, I appreciate you bringing that up. But let us assume that Bob stole some money from Carl, a friend or an acquaintance and buys things or squanders it away. But later on it comes to light that he stole the money. Bob asks for forgiveness and receives it even though Carl doesn’t get the money back, and Bob is relieved of any demands for justice from Carl. Later on Bob comes into a lot of money, but Carl falls on hard times. Bob decides that having been forgiven, he owes Carl nothing. Would Bob be wrong in not giving any money to Carl? If the answer is no then the act of the forgiving covered all demands of justice. However if the answer is yes, though Carl forgave him, then it is understood that in part, there is still a debt of sorts on Bob. He is still culpable to some degree for the theft. Therefore the weight of a sin must be met in full. A large portion can be remitted from the act of forgiving, but a penance of sorts, a restitution if you will, falls solely upon the one forgiven.
 
Hello Vico, I appreciate you bringing that up. But let us assume that Bob stole some money from Carl, a friend or an acquaintance and buys things or squanders it away. But later on it comes to light that he stole the money. Bob asks for forgiveness and receives it even though Carl doesn’t get the money back, and Bob is relieved of any demands for justice from Carl. Later on Bob comes into a lot of money, but Carl falls on hard times. Bob decides that having been forgiven, he owes Carl nothing. Would Bob be wrong in not giving any money to Carl? If the answer is no then the act of the forgiving covered all demands of justice. However if the answer is yes, though Carl forgave him, then it is understood that in part, there is still a debt of sorts on Bob. He is still culpable to some degree for the theft. Therefore the weight of a sin must be met in full. A large portion can be remitted from the act of forgiving, but a penance of sorts, a restitution if you will, falls solely upon the one forgiven.
I think the forgiveness of the debt vs the common decency are two different issues here.

If we are called to charity and such a situation endured, Bob would not be sinful as a thief, but Bob would now be like the rich man who is like a camel through a needles eye. He is essentially guilty of a new issue. With the decency of the previous deed at least from a human standpoint being a small factor in how much a heart this Bob should have.

Funny side note, I leant a Carl $10 once a few weeks before Xmas naturally as humans do he failed to pay on payday, and it seemed clear from his speech patterns it a unlikely event I be repaid. So I said “Merry Christmas, I don’t need the $10” which absolved us both of any issue…

OH how the scammers are twisted minds. He REFUSED the debt forgiveness and adamantly swore to repay me payday coming, lol well several months later I made a $10 joke when he took some supplies from me at work (legit use of supplies) and he again swore to give me the $10 (at this point I was just having fun… I still considered it a forgiven debt) and finally a couple months later of regular promises to pay me back I AGAIN separately forgave the debt as his birthday present…and with a look of defeat he finally accepted. I can only assume this comes from some kind of mental issues lol.
 
Good Morning, catholictiger, and welcome!
I’m not sure if understanding is necessary in forgiveness. Forgiveness is a gift given to a person who has done something wrong to you. You may not understand why they did it but you still forgive them. For example someone says something very hurtful to you, and later on he comes to you and says I’m sorry I said that to you. In order for you to forgive it doesn’t matter how much you understand that person. It doesn’t matter if the guy has a serious psychological issue that caused him to act in that way, you can still forgive them if you have no idea about that.
I agree, understanding is not necessary. Especially when we are children, we do not have the capability to understand the depths of why someone sought to hurt us, for example. Forgiveness can be a gift to the forgiven, but it is more of a gift to the one who has let go of his anger and forgiven. As far as forgiving the person who is sorry, I think it would be harder not to forgive such a person than to forgive him! Those are the easy ones! 🙂
I think understanding helps in reconciling with the person, when making amends with a person it is important to understand why they may have done that thing so as to avoid that situation in the future.
And that we may incorporate the discipline such that we avoid doing to others exactly what was done to us, of course.
But onto culpability. Culpability theologically simple has to do with a persons freedom to be able to choose an action. I’m no moral theologian but from what I understand is that for someone to be morally culpable, they must have been able to choose otherwise and there is no internal or external force causing them to act in this way. (someone may be able to give a better definition.) For example, I enjoy a few adult beverages from time to time, I can stop drinking after one drink. If I were to get drunk than I’m culpable for that action, I could have chosen to stop drinking before getting drunk. Now if I hit someone when I’m drunk I’m not fully culpable for hitting that person because my freedom to choose when drunk is less. Now someone who is an Alcoholic meaning they are dependent on alcohol, they are not culpable for getting drunk in the same way a non-alcoholic would be. I would actually argue that an alcoholic wouldn’t commit a mortal sin by getting drunk because he has little to no control on how much he drinks.
Yes, in order to have the freedom to choose, the person must know all of the relevant information. They must know the gravity of the sin, have full knowledge.
Culpability is important in determining many things in the moral life, and it is a complicated issue. But to put it simply the way I understand it is that for someone to be culpable they must have the freedom to choose otherwise. Sin by our nature reduces our freedom, when would that cross into no longer a mortal sin category I have no idea. I’ll leave that up to the moral theologians to figure out.
edit: one last note, I’m very interested in addiction and culpability. The reason is I know there are many people out there who are addicted to things, porn especially. I want to know what the line is when someone goes from culpable for their acting out in an addiction to not culpable. To put it simply if a teen comes into the confessional and asks me, am I committing a moral sin when I look at porn? While each situation will differ I want to know how much culpability is required for a mortal sin. (I don’t think the Church is clear on this matter because it is a difficult subject. I know there will be a multitude of opinions on this forum, but I’ll say: this while I would love to discuss it here, I’m going to leave it to my teachers to figure out the answer to this question.)
I think that it is accurate to say that all addiction is enslaving, and Jesus calls us to freedom from slavery. (Of course, a caffeine addiction is usually of little consequence). Defiling the temple is a sin against ourselves, against our inner dignity. Use of porn at any level increases the demand for porn, which increases the demand for people to be subject to the enslavement and dehumanization of the porn industry. The violation is more subtle than other sins, people think “no harm done”, but the harm is real.

The problem I am seeing with the definition is that the definition gives us a means to assign blame, when Jesus calls us not to blame in the first place. The objective is to forgive, and understanding helps us in that endeavor.

Thanks for your response!

God Bless you!
 
To forgive is to to give up all claim to punish or exact penalty for an offense. So forgiveness applies when someone has offended. Sometimes an offense is unintentional, but this would not be true of negligence born of disregard. “Father … forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.”
👍

What do you think about the definition of culpability, Vico? If we are defining “blameworthiness” are we encouraging people to blame? Isn’t blame of others what we are trying to overcome through forgiveness?
 
Good Morning, Jack!
Thank you OneSheep first for the welcome and second for the clarifying that up for me. Invariably if there is more than one connotation available I always seem to choose…poorly. Never worry about hurting my feelings. I have more than enough to last me the rest of my life. If one gets hurt or destroyed, I can get another. I tend to be a little more hard lined in my thinking, yes-no, right-wrong, black-white. Not a real fan of the grey area. I do know that when we get judged there will be no grey area’s. That being said I agree with (if understanding the gist here) that showing charity and patience towards our neighbor is extremely important. But as to our selves, (I believe) we should be the harshest of judges, not to the point of being scrupulous, but so that we can be more pleasing to God.
To harshly judge ourselves pleases God? Well, I think that there is a place for harsh self-judgment, but ultimately we are called to forgive ourselves. Staying in harsh self-judgment can hardly be called a “life in its fullest” or “freedom” or “eternal life”. God wants us to be free, to find joy!
Once again thank you for taking the time to instruct me.
We “instruct” each other here. I am certain that I could learn much from you too!

Oh, but do not take my “thinking aloud” as instructive. What I intend is an investigation into the definition of culpability, and its purpose. For example:
  1. One may think that a definition of “blameworthiness” might be a guide to self-discipline to avoid being blameworthy. However, would we ever encourage people to blame? That sounds contrary to the Gospel.
  2. We give these definitions, but ultimately the charitable Catholic avoids all judging. “It is all in God’s hands” they say. Does this mean that God is there, blaming? Then we take something humans are to avoid, judging others, but saying that God, in His perfection, would do? Aren’t we called to “be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect”? If so, blaming would be an aspect of perfection, which is contradictory.
  3. Blame is a natural human response, triggered at a gut-level. We don’t need a definition; people do not think “Oh, I think I am going to go ahead and blame that person”. Yes, when we do not understand the person’s reasons for doing evil, we are more likely to cling to the blaming. In order for a person to find “sufficient awareness and internal consent”, that would only mean that either A. The viewer is omniscient or B. The viewer has not completely investigated the case at hand. The “C” option, that the viewer is not omniscient but simply knows that people can know what they are doing when they sin runs contrary to the observation that Jesus made from the cross, “For they know not what they do.”
Do you see the difficulty with the definition?

Thanks. 🙂
 
👍

What do you think about the definition of culpability, Vico? If we are defining “blameworthiness” are we encouraging people to blame? Isn’t blame of others what we are trying to overcome through forgiveness?
No, to forgive is to to give up all claim to punish or exact penalty for an offense. We already are offended so it assumes blame to be able to forgive. We give up repayment, i.e., we do not condemn: the action of condemning someone to a punishment; sentencing.

It is necessary word and is given there as formal guilt, which does not specify gravity. There may be guilt for mortal or venial sins. We must humble ourselves, which in self accusation, we find ourselves blameworthy; for example, the prayer “Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.”

It is used also by the Magisterium in a general way, for example Gaudium et Spes, Number 51, which states:

“Relying on these principles, sons of the church may not undertake methods of regulating procreation which are found blameworthy by the teaching authority of the Church in its unfolding of divine law.”
 
Hi Vico
No, to forgive is to to give up all claim to punish or exact penalty for an offense. We already are offended so it assumes blame to be able to forgive. We give up repayment, i.e., we do not condemn: the action of condemning someone to a punishment; sentencing.
So, question then. Let’s say I look upon a person whom has offended me, and say, "I let go of all claim to punish or exact penalty, but I still think you are a “blankity-blank”. Have I forgiven “from the heart”?
It is necessary word and is given there as formal guilt, which does not specify gravity. There may be guilt for mortal or venial sins. We must humble ourselves, which in self accusation, we find ourselves blameworthy; for example, the prayer “Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.”
This makes self-blame such a rational endeavor. Are we not encouraged to avoid judging? When I say that prayer, I stay aware of the call not to judge anyone. Yes, I am a sinner, but I do not know what I do when I sin. I share this condition of “sinner” with everyone, for like everyone else I am capable of harming others and subject to blindness and ignorance, which are essential elements in such choice to harm.
It is used also by the Magisterium in a general way, for example Gaudium et Spes, Number 51, which states:
“Relying on these principles, sons of the church may not undertake methods of regulating procreation which are found blameworthy by the teaching authority of the Church in its unfolding of divine law.”
The way I see it, here, the use of Number 51 as a rationale for not addressing blame as emotional reaction to overcome is problematic. Yes, authorities can say that certain methods of regulating procreation are wrong. Blame is a different matter, is it not?

I knew that this thread would eventually require the definition for blame. Do you have one?

Thanks, Vico
 
Hi Vico

So, question then. Let’s say I look upon a person whom has offended me, and say, "I let go of all claim to punish or exact penalty, but I still think you are a “blankity-blank”. Have I forgiven “from the heart”?

This makes self-blame such a rational endeavor. Are we not encouraged to avoid judging? When I say that prayer, I stay aware of the call not to judge anyone. Yes, I am a sinner, but I do not know what I do when I sin. I share this condition of “sinner” with everyone, for like everyone else I am capable of harming others and subject to blindness and ignorance, which are essential elements in such choice to harm.

The way I see it, here, the use of Number 51 as a rationale for not addressing blame as emotional reaction to overcome is problematic. Yes, authorities can say that certain methods of regulating procreation are wrong. Blame is a different matter, is it not?

I knew that this thread would eventually require the definition for blame. Do you have one?

Thanks, Vico
The middle English for blame is blamen, to speak evil of.

Blame is a noun, and to blame is a verb. Collins Dictionary states that blameworthyness is an obsolete form of blame (the noun). The noun means “responsibility for a fault or wrong”.

Some sin is through ignorance, some is through passion, and some is by malice. In these, it may be willful or not. The determination of the punishment for that sin is not in our hands. Avoiding that is avoiding certain judgement of their souls. There is an obligation to not give scandal, which may result from what is an objective sin and what is not. (St. Paul gave up eating meat offered to pagan idols, not a sin for him, but may mislead others.) Also there is obligation to discriminate to avoid the occasions of sin.

You example is of the act of name calling, not recognition that you are offended. The offense may have been imagined or true and intentional. There is nothing to forgive if offense is unrecognized. Both scandal and calumny are sins so those should be avoided

We have an obligation to discern sin in ourselves and others, especially since we can sin through silent and spoken approval.

Baltimore Catechism No. 3

Q. 813. Which are the chief spiritual works of mercy?

A. The chief spiritual works of mercy are seven: To admonish the sinner, to instruct the ignorant, to counsel the doubtful, to comfort the sorrowful, to bear wrongs patiently, to forgive all injuries, and to pray for the living and the dead.

Q. 814. When are we bound to admonish the sinner?

A. We are bound to admonish the sinner when the following conditions are fulfilled:
  1. When his fault is a mortal sin;
  2. When we have authority or influence over him, and
  3. When there is reason to believe that our warning will not make him worse instead of better.
Q. 815. Who are meant by the “ignorant” we are to instruct, and the “doubtful” we are to counsel?

A. By the ignorant we are to instruct and the doubtful we are to counsel, are meant those particularly who are ignorant of the truths of religion and those who are in doubt about matters of faith. We must aid such persons as far as we can to know and believe the truths necessary for salvation.

Q. 816. Why are we advised to bear wrong patiently and to forgive all injuries?

A. We are advised to bear wrongs patiently and to forgive all injuries, because, being Christians, we should imitate the example of Our Divine Lord, who endured wrongs patiently and who not only pardoned but prayed for those who injured Him.

Q. 817. If, then, it be a Christian virtue to forgive all injuries, why do Christians establish courts and prisons to punish wrongdoers?

A. Christians establish courts and prisons to punish wrongdoers, because the preservation of lawful authority, good order in society, the protection of others, and sometimes even the good of the guilty one himself, require that crimes be justly punished. As God Himself punishes crime and as lawful authority comes from Him, such authority has the right to punish, though individuals should forgive the injuries done to themselves personally.
 
You example is of the act of name calling, not recognition that you are offended.
Sorry, I guess that wasn’t explicit enough. I was expressing a example of a person who was offended, and held onto bad thoughts of the other.
The middle English for blame is blamen, to speak evil of.

Blame is a noun, and to blame is a verb. Collins Dictionary states that blameworthyness is an obsolete form of blame (the noun). The noun means “responsibility for a fault or wrong”.
It looks like two different definitions. In the first case, “to speak evil of”, this fits the description of me saying that a person is a “blankety-blank”. I have spoken ill of the person, even though I have “let go of all claim to punish or exact penalty”. The question is, have I truly forgiven the way that Christ wants us to forgive, from the heart?

In the second case, what if a person were to kill someone, and I say to the person “you did that” without expressing any anger or condemnation, with no indication of disapproval. Have I “blamed”?
Also there is obligation to discriminate to avoid the occasions of sin.
Q. 814. When are we bound to admonish the sinner?
A. We are bound to admonish the sinner when the following conditions are fulfilled:
  1. When his fault is a mortal sin;
  2. When we have authority or influence over him, and
  3. When there is reason to believe that our warning will not make him worse instead of better.
In order to find that someone has committed a mortal sin, we would have to know that the person had “full knowledge and full consent”. Since there is no way to ever completely know this about someone, any such determination would be presumptive.

By our good nature, we are compelled to admonish any sin because of our gut-reaction to such sin. We blame. Jesus calls us to forgive, not to blame. Yes, we can “discriminate”, but does that discrimination necessarily involve blame?
Q. 816. Why are we advised to bear wrong patiently and to forgive all injuries?
A. We are advised to bear wrongs patiently and to forgive all injuries, because, being Christians, we should imitate the example of Our Divine Lord, who endured wrongs patiently and who not only pardoned but prayed for those who injured Him.
Q. 817. If, then, it be a Christian virtue to forgive all injuries, why do Christians establish courts and prisons to punish wrongdoers?
A. Christians establish courts and prisons to punish wrongdoers, because the preservation of lawful authority, good order in society, the protection of others, and sometimes even the good of the guilty one himself, require that crimes be justly punished.
👍
 
Sorry, I guess that wasn’t explicit enough. I was expressing a example of a person who was offended, and held onto bad thoughts of the other.
It looks like two different definitions. In the first case, “to speak evil of”, this fits the description of me saying that a person is a “blankety-blank”. I have spoken ill of the person, even though I have “let go of all claim to punish or exact penalty”. The question is, have I truly forgiven the way that Christ wants us to forgive, from the heart?

In the second case, what if a person were to kill someone, and I say to the person “you did that” without expressing any anger or condemnation, with no indication of disapproval. Have I “blamed”?

In order to find that someone has committed a mortal sin, we would have to know that the person had “full knowledge and full consent”. Since there is no way to ever completely know this about someone, any such determination would be presumptive.

By our good nature, we are compelled to admonish any sin because of our gut-reaction to such sin. We blame. Jesus calls us to forgive, not to blame. Yes, we can “discriminate”, but does that discrimination necessarily involve blame?

👍
Jesus calls us to turn the other cheek when offended, and to overturn the tables in the temple when necessary.

Yes, two different words, one a noun and the other a verb. Vengeance is punishment, so it it is not forgiveness to call someone a name because of their offending you. If there is a thought that they are an offender of you, that is not a sin. What is the thought name for the offender that you are thinking of? Please give some examples if possible.

If there is externalized action, then that is the verb to blame.

The key question is if there is objective sin, without knowing the culpability of the person. We do not have to know if it was mortal. The factors for mortality are gravity, sufficient reflection, and willfulness (increased by intentional ignorance), awareness by conscience or Church teaching that the act or omission is morally wrong.

When the Jews were about to stone the woman for adultery, Jesus, bending down and writing their sins in the sand, then said who among you is without sin, let him cast the first stone. They did not then punish here, called condemnation. She was a sinner, but the gravity of her sin was not identified. Jesus said, go and sin no more, explicitly acknowledging that there was sin.

When we confess, we are obliged to confess all grave sins, but those could be mortal or venial. (Mortal and venial having to do with willfulness and.)
 
Jesus calls us to turn the other cheek when offended, and to overturn the tables in the temple when necessary.

Yes, two different words, one a noun and the other a verb. Vengeance is punishment, so it it is not forgiveness to call someone a name because of their offending you. If there is a thought that they are an offender of you, that is not a sin. What is the thought name for the offender that you are thinking of? Please give some examples if possible.
Okay, I see your point. Now, let us say that I am thinking “that person is a jerk”, I am thinking and feeling very negatively toward the person. Am I forgiving from heart, as Jesus calls us to do?

Did you miss the question: In the second case, what if a person were to kill someone, and I say to the person “you did that” without expressing any anger or condemnation, with no indication of disapproval. Have I “blamed”?

This question is important, because when it comes down to it, it seems like blame has very little to do with simply pointing out that someone chose a particular behavior.
If there is externalized action, then that is the verb to blame.
So, I can hold great resentment toward a person, in my mind thinking that the person is Lucifer incarnate, but as long as I do not express blame, I have forgiven from the heart?

2843 … It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.

If I say those negative things to myself, has the hurt been transformed? Let’s say I have decided to refrain from punishing someone else just because I am afraid of reprisal. A “transformation” has not taken place, right?
The key question is if there is objective sin, without knowing the culpability of the person. We do not have to know if it was mortal. The factors for mortality are gravity, sufficient reflection, and willfulness (increased by intentional ignorance), awareness by conscience or Church teaching that the act or omission is morally wrong.
Right, we do not know if it is mortal. Even the sinner himself does not know the scope of his own ignorance. Anyone can look back at their sins and say “I should have known better” if they have any remorse. It takes an aware person to realize “I didn’t know better” such as St. Paul realized. And we cannot claim that his sins were not grave.
When the Jews were about to stone the woman for adultery, Jesus, bending down and writing their sins in the sand, then said who among you is without sin, let him cast the first stone. They did not then punish here, called condemnation. She was a sinner, but the gravity of her sin was not identified. Jesus said, go and sin no more, explicitly acknowledging that there was sin.
Great example. The crowd found her blameworthy, culpable, even though they had no idea whether she was cognizant of the gravity of her sin. Jesus did not get into a discussion about whether her sin was mortal, etc., Instead, he directly addressed a different sin, the crowd’s decision to blame and carry out punishment. (Yes, afterward, He addressed her sin).

Was there something that the accusers had not considered? Yes, absolutely! Jesus accurately points out that since we are all sinners, we have no authority to be blaming anyone else. Again, blame is discouraged. This is in keeping with “do not judge one another”. “Stop judging one another” Paul says. And look: the accusers were not aware of all the relevant information, when Jesus provided it, they went away.

But then, if we look at the definition of “culpable”, blame is essentially sanctioned, approved. A description is given as to how to assign blame.
When we confess, we are obliged to confess all grave sins, but those could be mortal or venial. (Mortal and venial having to do with willfulness and.)
Yes. We need to confess the sins that weigh on our souls.
 
Okay, I see your point. Now, let us say that I am thinking “that person is a jerk”, I am thinking and feeling very negatively toward the person. Am I forgiving from heart, as Jesus calls us to do?

Did you miss the question: In the second case, what if a person were to kill someone, and I say to the person “you did that” without expressing any anger or condemnation, with no indication of disapproval. Have I “blamed”?

This question is important, because when it comes down to it, it seems like blame has very little to do with simply pointing out that someone chose a particular behavior.

So, I can hold great resentment toward a person, in my mind thinking that the person is Lucifer incarnate, but as long as I do not express blame, I have forgiven from the heart?

2843 … It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.

If I say those negative things to myself, has the hurt been transformed? Let’s say I have decided to refrain from punishing someone else just because I am afraid of reprisal. A “transformation” has not taken place, right?

Right, we do not know if it is mortal. Even the sinner himself does not know the scope of his own ignorance. Anyone can look back at their sins and say “I should have known better” if they have any remorse. It takes an aware person to realize “I didn’t know better” such as St. Paul realized. And we cannot claim that his sins were not grave.

Great example. The crowd found her blameworthy, culpable, even though they had no idea whether she was cognizant of the gravity of her sin. Jesus did not get into a discussion about whether her sin was mortal, etc., Instead, he directly addressed a different sin, the crowd’s decision to blame and carry out punishment. (Yes, afterward, He addressed her sin).

Was there something that the accusers had not considered? Yes, absolutely! Jesus accurately points out that since we are all sinners, we have no authority to be blaming anyone else. Again, blame is discouraged. This is in keeping with “do not judge one another”. “Stop judging one another” Paul says. And look: the accusers were not aware of all the relevant information, when Jesus provided it, they went away.

But then, if we look at the definition of “culpable”, blame is essentially sanctioned, approved. A description is given as to how to assign blame.

Yes. We need to confess the sins that weigh on our souls.
Q. When saying “you did that” without expressing any anger or condemnation, with no indication of disapproval. Have I “blamed”?

Yes, to identify someone of an offense is to allege which is also to blame, but it is not condemnation.

Q. For “Am I forgiving from heart, as Jesus calls us to do?”

Yes, one may forgive from the heart while still experiencing even strong anger. Sin is a matter of the will and an involuntary emotion is not a matter of the will. In fact, non retaliation in the presence of stronger emotion, is more meritorious. Catechism 1773 "In the passions, as movements of the sensitive appetite, there is neither moral good nor evil. But insofar as they engage reason and will, there is moral good or evil in them”

So one should not willfully try to increase anger. There is also righteous anger (indignation) which may be justified to seek punishment, but the necessary provision is absence of hatred and no desire for revenge.

Q. Let’s say I have decided to refrain from punishing someone else just because I am afraid of reprisal. A “transformation” has not taken place, right?

It is imperfect contrition, which is meritorious, and disposes to forgiveness in confession. Some things take time for the Holy Spirit.

Q. the crowd’s decision to blame and carry out punishment.

The punishment is what was wrong, she was blameworthy. They decided, as did Jesus, not to condemn (punish) her. They all accused her of sin, which was objectively true. We do need to avoid slander, and calumny, and scandal. Sometimes it is necessary to point out an objective sin to avoid scandal. Jesus identified that they were wrong, in this case.

Yes, blame may be justified, but not condemnation (to hell) which is reserved to God. There may be legal and ecclestical punishment that are just also, with due process.
 
Good morning Vico, and OneSheep.
Since Adam and Eve both sinned, God made the rest of humanity partially blameworthy with original sin. We as you know are born with this. Though the infant has done nothing, the gates of heaven are closed to it till it has been baptized.
Our Lord and Savior suffered cruelly for each and every sin that was committed, for every person that ever was or will be. Even the ones that land in hell. This ultimately shows that when a sinful act is committed, there is blame and restitution is required on our part. It is not as if God is saying, “I forgive, there for all is ok.” Restitution of sorts must me made. Our Lords sufferings did not negate the need for repentance. Otherwise, why did He suffer? If this were not the case, then our forgiving someone is moot because ALL sins had been forgiven in Completeness. And to further that then anyone could do anything without fear of punishment in the next life. And to further that, then there would be no need of hell except for the bad angels.
However I agree with you Onesheep that to forgive is important. And that we cannot fully know a persons intent to the degree that God does. But not to admonish when needed is a sin of omission. Silence can denote consent of an evil act.
This is why we are to know, love and serve God in this world so we can be happy with him for ever in the next. The greater we know, love and serve God the better we are able not only to recognize sinful things but their far reaching effects. Thus we must be harsh on our selves, but show mercy and patience and forgiveness to others. Therefore if we are to follow Christ, we must forgive.
Also, we must forgive others on the premise that anything that is done against us personally, is as nothing when compared to the offense we give God with even the slightest of venial sins. And do we not ask for His forgiveness?
I hope that I am understanding your view on this, if not please do not hesitate to correct me. I get a little too focused on one connotation some times.
 
Good Morning, Vico
Q. When saying “you did that” without expressing any anger or condemnation, with no indication of disapproval. Have I “blamed”?

Yes, to identify someone of an offense is to allege which is also to blame, but it is not condemnation.
That makes sense, but it is not an ordinary use of the word, right? People say “Who is to blame for all this good fortune?”, but it is usually a tongue-in-cheek usage. But yes, in these cases “blame” is used for "identification”. However, the definition of culpability involves much more than simple identification, it involves evaluation, a judgment of the person is involved, what they knew and did not know, etc. And when the human judges, resentment follows quickly. In fact, the resentment is triggered as soon as the evil act has occurred, and the process of determining how “culpable” someone is becomes more of a determination as to whether to hang onto such resentment.

On the other hand, we are all called to forgive, so when we do resent the sins of others or feel guilt for our own sins, we are called to forgive, seek forgiveness
.
So of course, if the definition of culpability sanctions blame, the call to forgive provides a quick, overriding remedy.

And certainly, the identification aspect is useful, and has its place. In addition, we provide laws and mores for the purpose of guidance. It is useful for the individual to compare his own behavior and the behaviors of others against the laws and mores.

Concerning your next comment, here was my question:

I am thinking “that person is a jerk”, I am thinking and feeling very negatively toward the person. Am I forgiving from heart, as Jesus calls us to do?
Q. For “Am I forgiving from heart, as Jesus calls us to do?”
Yes, one may forgive from the heart while still experiencing even strong anger. Sin is a matter of the will and an involuntary emotion is not a matter of the will. In fact, non retaliation in the presence of stronger emotion, is more meritorious. Catechism 1773 "In the passions, as movements of the sensitive appetite, there is neither moral good nor evil. But insofar as they engage reason and will, there is moral good or evil in them”
So one should not willfully try to increase anger. There is also righteous anger (indignation) which may be justified to seek punishment, but the necessary provision is absence of hatred and no desire for revenge.
I will grant that it is much more difficult to avoid retaliation when one is angry. In fact, it would take a rather warped individual to retaliate when not angry!

I agree that one should not willfully try to increase anger. What about willfully trying to decrease anger? Do you know people walking around for years with a dark cloud of anger? Such is hardly holiness. Yes, we have all of the rationalizations for hanging onto righteous anger. By our good nature, though, anger has an accompanying resentment, and yes, hatred. And when the resentment and hatred is mitigated through understanding, the anger goes away. In the aftermath, justice can be sought with a peaceful, forgiving mind and heart.

A sustained involuntary emotion is a matter of the will, Vico. If I am feeling very negatively toward a person, dehumanizing them, demonizing them, thinking of them as a “jerk” and worse, I have not forgiven from the heart!, in itself it is an expression of hatred. Does the BC say something different?
Q. Let’s say I have decided to refrain from punishing someone else just because I am afraid of reprisal. A “transformation” has not taken place, right?
It is imperfect contrition, which is meritorious, and disposes to forgiveness in confession. Some things take time for the Holy Spirit.
Yes, transformation takes time. And yes, there is a lot to be said for the decision to forgive. I am beginning to think that you may be speaking from a position of obligation and I am speaking from a position of fundamental transformation.

So, if a person says “I am going to forgive, I am going to purge from my mind any desire to punish, but I am still going to think of the person as a worthless jerk, because he is.”, this is an expression of hatred, is it not?

Has this person forgiven? No, he has not, even though it is “meritorious” that he has at least chosen to forgive. And in order to forgive in a mature way, the person will need to pray for, and utilize, the gift of understanding. Part of such understanding will always involve the recognition that people behave badly in ignorance and blindness. In fact, the specific finding of such ignorance and blindness is usually key to understanding why the resented person has sinned.

So, we are back to the dilemma. Let’s say a person is clinging to his “righteous anger”, and thinks that the other person is a “jerk” or some other demonizing/dehumanizing manner. In order to overcome his condition, he will need to come to the understanding that the person he is judging as negative had some gap in awareness. However, since finding “culpable”, that is “blameworthiness” depends on a determination of “sufficient awareness”, the judging person choosing to cling to righteous anger will also resist understanding because he wants the “jerk” to remain blameworthy.

Do you see the problem?

Put into the context of the crucifixion scene, the crowd had righteous anger (in their own eyes); they did not forgive, and they were clinging to their hatred. What did Jesus do? If he had been angry, He forgave them. How did He forgive them? He saw their ignorance and blindness, He understood. If Jesus had decided to hang onto His own “righteous anger”, if it were not for His divine nature (omniscience), He might have never sought to understand the ignorance of the crowd, he would have died blaming the crowd.

(continued)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top