What is de facto schism?

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Kielbasi

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From another thread:
The American Church has been in de facto schism for some 30 years now. I can’t speak for the United Kingdom, but it’s likely Americanism has infested many national churches, especially in predominately English-speaking countries
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Although this is a phrase from just one individual poster, others have listened with an air of approval.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, are not American bishops appointed by the same pope in Rome as those elsewhere?

I think an objective look at American religion and American Catholicism , is that America is quite religious in comparison with the rest of the Christian world and considerably more strict even to the point of legalism.
 
From what I understand, de facto means: according to fact, in practice and/or existing in fact whether with lawful authority or not**. **The last definition being geared more towards the rest of my post.

Here is an interview Pope Benedict XVI had with Raymond Arryo - this was before he became our Pope (hence “Cardinal” in the following):
Raymond: Right. Some have suggested, Your Eminence, that there is a de facto schism in the Church today. Because many, who call themselves Catholic, many who were born and baptized Catholic, simply don’t believe nor live out the fullness of the faith. How do we bring them back? How do we reach them in this cultural reality?
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                 **Cardinal**: I would say this is a permanent pastoral problem to help that all people can really share the faith of the Church authentically. And it was always a problem that the faith of many persons was deficient and insufficient. Today it is clear that with all the …
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Raymond: Relativism?
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Code: 
                 **Cardinal**: …relativism and so its problem is as strong as in past times. And so is the problem of catechization and evangelization is much more difficult as in different times. I think the first point is a good catechesis in the preparation to the faith, in education to the faith, that really the faith of the Church is authentically present. And I think the *Catechism of the Catholic Church* is a great help to see universally what is really the faith of the Church and what is not. And the new compendium we are preparing will be another help to make more accessible the great catechism in a practical work of catechization. This is the first point – education in the faith and really have the common ground present. And the other point is also the prediction that in homilies we can really year-by-year learn what is the faith, not only some or always the same ideas. I think it is a real danger that in the homilies priests and also bishops could repeat essentially their preferred ideas and not present the completeness of the faith. So I think a renewal also of the predication is also very important. The liturgy is living catechesis. I think so much is dependent from authentic liturgies, not only as I said, appearing as the ideas and experience of this community, but is a representation of the faith of the Church. You can see the Sacrifice of Christ is here and the Triune God is in contact with us and we with Him, and so on. Liturgy is very important. And so, also is to deepen the prayer in the Church. I think the way to learn God, is prayer. And a school of prayers are very essential, I think. With a concrete relation of prayer, we learn about God and we learn the Church. And so, it’s important to have prayer books representing really the deepness of our faith. So, I think even the works of Christian charity are important to give concreteness to our faith, because faith is not only an idea, not only a theory, but it is also a living reality.
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The full interview can be found here:


Hope this helps. 🙂
 
There is an “American Catholic Church.” It is not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church. They allow women priest and such. I don’t know if that is what you are talking about.
 
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Kielbasi:
From another thread:

Although this is a phrase from just one individual poster, others have listened with an air of approval.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, are not American bishops appointed by the same pope in Rome as those elsewhere?

I think an objective look at American religion and American Catholicism , is that America is quite religious in comparison with the rest of the Christian world and considerably more strict even to the point of legalism.
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Remember Redemptionis Sacramentum???
 
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/Orthoderm.png

http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/mahony.jpg

Cardinal Roger Michael Mahony Archbishop of Los Angeles. “I volunteered as a test subject just to prove how ridiculous this concept was. After a week I was convinced that it indeed had no effect on me, but when I drove to the Cathedral I found some concrete monstrosity resembling a parking garage. I had at first though I drove to the wrong place and then I realized that not only was this hideous looking thing a Cathedral but that I was the one that was responsible for having it built. All I can say is mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Now if you will excuse me I am off to re-read what has now come to be one of my favorite encyclical Redemptionis Sacramentum and to encourage some of my parish churches to be open to the indult Tridentine Mass and to ensure that all Masses our reverent and conducted in conformance to Church instruction.”

splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/006027.php
 
Friend… not only is he an Archbishop, but he’s a Cardinal as well.
 
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Dropper:
http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/095_MahonyConsecration.jpg

Remember Redemptionis Sacramentum???
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If you are going to post a picture and juxtapose it with a ruling which implies that the priest or bishop is disobeying the ruling, is it possible that you might detail when the picture was taken?

It may be a mere technical detail, but if the picture was taken prior to the release of Redemptionis, then you are making a statement which on the face of it is not true.
 
I take it you’re not aware of Cardinal Mahony and his many abuses of the Liturgy?
 
I take it you’re not aware of Cardinal Mahony and his many abuses of the Liturgy?
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Cardinal Mahony is a cardinal in good standing that serves at the pleasure of the pope.

Hardly in “schism”.
 
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otm:
If you are going to post a picture and juxtapose it with a ruling which implies that the priest or bishop is disobeying the ruling, is it possible that you might detail when the picture was taken?

It may be a mere technical detail, but if the picture was taken prior to the release of Redemptionis, then you are making a statement which on the face of it is not true.
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I am not sure when this particular picture was taken, but I know that after Redemptionis Sacramentum (it was a Mass for Pope JP II on the day that he passes away) he used the very same GLASS “chalices”.

I tried to find actual pictures from that date, but could not.
 
I notice how someone defined “de facto” and even linked to an interview with Cardinal Ratzinger yet no one has posted what “schism” means nor any comment from the Pope stating that the Roman Catholic Church in America is in such a state. (I say Roman Catholoic Church in America becuase there is a body that is called the American Catholic Church which is not a part of the true Catholic Church)

So here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch says about schism.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Now I know those who made up this term "de facto schsim’ (which will not be found in any Church documents) will say that liturgical abuse is failure to submit to the Pope, but the Pope has not come out and said that these bishops are in schism. He has not broken communion with them and they have not broken communion with Rome.

And here is what the Code of Canon Law says.

** Can. 751** Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Again, identical to what the CCC says and no such thing as “de facto schism”, either one is in schism or they are not. The Church decides.

When we run around saying who is in schism and the Church has not said that they are, we are making ourselves the authority over the Church. In essence we are doing exactly what the protestants have done.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
That is the best thing I have read in a long time!
I nearly wet myself!
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Its nice to see that disrespect of the Bishops of the Church creates such pleasure in people.

So sad.
 
I think that sometimes disobedience and schism are confused. One can be disobedient and not be a schismatic. Some of the disobedient are schismatic and some of the disobedient are just disobedient.
 
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ByzCath:
Its nice to see that disrespect of the Bishops of the Church creates such pleasure in people.

So sad.
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So what you’re saying is… someone who apparently has no clue of what his duties are as a Bishop and certainly not of a Cardinal… should be praised? Commended? It is one thing to be a preist or a bishop. It’s another thing to be a priest or a bishop that acts more like a dissenting fool.

I don’t think we should be forced to close our eyes whenever we see things that are lacerating the church.

But maybe I care about the body of christ a little much, eh?
 
someone who apparently has no clue of what his duties are as a Bishop and certainly not of a Cardinal
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The Magesterium, Pope Benedict and his soon to be sainted predecessor disagree with you on this.

The Magesterium apparently has confidence in him and has chosen to continue Cardinal Mahony as ordinary in LA.
 
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Kielbasi:
The Magesterium, Pope Benedict and his soon to be sainted predecessor disagree with you on this.

The Magesterium apparently has confidence in him and has chosen to continue Cardinal Mahony as ordinary in LA.
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I have addressed this recently in another thread. The lack of disciplinary action in the church these days is pretty obvious. Which is just another reason why things are as bad as they are. We let the cancer stay around a little longer maybe throw some manure on the situation, something good will come out of it…

Wrong.
 
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ByzCath:
Its nice to see that disrespect of the Bishops of the Church creates such pleasure in people.

So sad.
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Did you go to the site and read it?
It was much more than a Bishop.

If we can’t laugh at ourselves, we will cry.
 
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