What is exactly and precisely "invincible ignorance"?

[steve-b]

Ammi:

Scripture itself warns about rejecting this message of profound grace in Jesus.

People who decide it doesn’t make sense or isn’t compelling are getting “warnings” about rejecting the message. That’s coercive. "Believe this or else."

Jesus gives many such statements.

I used one of them previously

Jn 6:
53…“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

THAT is a do this or else statement.

If one won’t do that, and blows off that command, Yes it’s a command and not a suggestion,

THEN

One has no life in them, and Jesus won’t raise them to life with Him on the last day. IOW, they who don’t do what He commands, go down NOT up on the last day. And we know what He means by that

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Invincible ignorance presumes much effort has been made to know and understand a subject, but after much effort expended by the individual, they still can’t know or understand the subject

You forgot the third option. They heard, studied and found it unsubstantiated, and as such - reject it.

If it is truly unsubstantiated, then in THAT case we’re not talking about ignorance

 

[Maximus1]

1 Corinthians 15:28.
Citing individual passages is a back and forth.
You are welcome to comment on what I wrote.

 

[Ammi]

Rejecting or denying the Word of God (Gospel) altogether is not the same as various Church Teaching, or denying Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary…

Luke 8

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard ; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts , that they may not believe and be saved .

Matthew 13

“Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it , the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart ; this is what was sown along the path.”

Notice Jesus says “does not understand it”.

 

[Maximus1]

Does not understand it?
That does not seem to support a position of the exercise of free will.

 

[Ammi]

Does not understand it?
That does not seem to support a position of the exercise of free will.

The truth of God is revealed. If it is rejected, that is done by free will.

Man is obligated to search God and truth. To dismiss the Gospel is to insult God’s Son, and His forgiveness by His death.

 

[steve-b]

1 Corinthians 15:28.
Citing individual passages is a back and forth.
You are welcome to comment on what I wrote.

What I commented on was what you wrote here

" God wants everyone to be saved, God is good, and God loves us, are all factors that we assume in addressing judgement. So Hell is a place we select for ourselves through exercise of free will. Hence, what is a true excercize of free will?

While God desires all to be saved, in reality, Jesus says only a few are saved.

So

1 Cor 15:
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.

That Doesn’t change what Jesus said.

 

[Nahar]

If it is truly unsubstantiated, then in THAT case we’re not talking about ignorance

Huh? I think we have some misunderstanding. If a claim is not substantiated, then it is an empty or meaningless claim. Obviously everyone is ignorant of the veracity of the claim. Even though everyone is aware that a claim has been made.

 

[Aquinas11]

Unfortunately I’m invincibly ignorant on invincible ignorance

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If it is truly unsubstantiated, then in THAT case we’re not talking about ignorance

Huh? I think we have some misunderstanding. If a claim is not substantiated, then it is an empty or meaningless claim. Obviously everyone is ignorant of the veracity of the claim. Even though everyone is aware that a claim has been made.

Huh?
If one claims that something is unsubstantiated, that’s the same as saying one knows something is unsubstantiated. I.E. they are NOT ignorant of that fact.

 

[Nahar]

Huh?
If one claims that something is unsubstantiated, that’s the same as saying one knows something is unsubstantiated. I.E. they are NOT ignorant of that fact.

I guess you still misunderstand. The difference is between being aware of a fact, and being aware of the VERACITY of the fact.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Huh?
If one claims that something is unsubstantiated, that’s the same as saying one knows something is unsubstantiated. I.E. they are NOT ignorant of that fact.

I guess you still misunderstand. The difference is between being aware of a fact, and being aware of the VERACITY of the fact.

To be aware of a fact, and to know a fact exists, is not much of a difference. Either way, that is not ignorance.

 

[al2o3]

The truth of God is revealed. If it is rejected, that is done by free will.

Man is obligated to search God and truth. To dismiss the Gospel is to insult God’s Son, and His forgiveness by His death.

Thank you all for this discussion - this is indeed an interesting thread. While I may not have read all the comments here - I mostly relate to Ammi’s comments above.

Our comprehension is finite and constrained. God gives each of us different talents. To some extraordinary courage, to others the gift of extreme compassion and others the deepest scientific understanding - which is the logic of cause and effect. Paul to the Hebrews says it best - “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”. Faith is not irrational but it is not confined by reason. We may not understand everything (invincible ignorance) the Church teaches, but we have “faith” in its authority to teach.

We must use all our intellect and reason to seek God’s truth - but we are called through “faith” not to let our capacity to reason constrain our acceptance of God’s revelation to His people. We will not understand everything through our logic (invincible ignorance) - but guided by faith in the teaching authority of His Church - we must act in accordance with our informed conscience.

 

[Nahar]

To be aware of a fact, and to know a fact exists, is not much of a difference. Either way, that is not ignorance.

I guess we still have a problem. A purported or “alleged” fact is different from a real, or substantiated fact.

 

[Maximus1]

And what Jesus said in that passage does not translate into a limited salvation.
More directly you suggest what Jesus said contradicts God’s will. Why do you think he did that? That’s pretty radical just to achieve more people in hell

 

[Maximus1]

It certainly can be

 

[Maximus1]

How can you exercise free will if you are unaware of the ramifications of choice and/ or act irrationally?
And please don’t say," well you must make yourself aware," because that is the very same gotcha. You lack appreciation of the value or import to make yourself aware you do not exercise free will knowingly or freely.

 

[thistle]

First you have to believe the Gospel, before you can except Teachings from the kingdom.

Otherwise, you are just picking and choosing moral Teachings and attributing them to (the righteousness of) men.

The Church teaches the Gospel message and the teachings of the Church are those of God not man.

 

[Ammi]

I think Nahar knows what I mean.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

To be aware of a fact, and to know a fact exists, is not much of a difference. Either way, that is not ignorance.

I guess we still have a problem. A purported or “alleged” fact is different from a real, or substantiated fact.

Still

To know one or both is not ignorance