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HMarieH
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What is the Church that Jesus established in Matt 16:16-18 upon Peter’s confession, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Was this the Catholic Church being established or just Christ’s Church?
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Emerald
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If I’m not mistaken, it is the walking aid that’s leaning in a corner of his office, which he never uses, since he is perfect.
Christ’s Church is the Catholic Church is the Christian Church is the Universal Church. All Christianity is Catholicism; all Catholicism is Christianity.
All these terms are convertible terms.
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godsent
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Catholic church:thumbsup:
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Grace_and_Glory
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It was both. The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.
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HMarieH
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Do you say that the Peter was the first Pope based on that answer?
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Todd_Easton
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Is this a trick question? Jesus built his Church on Peter (and the other apostles, Ephesians 2:20), not on Peter’s confession. The forced intepretation that Jesus established his Church on Peter’s confession and not on Peter himself is a modern tradition of men that nulifies the word of God. In response to Simon’s confession and because of it, Jesus renamed him Peter (Greek: Petros, which means Rock) and said that upon this rock he would build his Church. For a good study of Matthew 16:13-19, see Catholic Answers apologist Jimmy Akin’s article, The Papacy: God’s gift to the Church.
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TOME
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First, God’s Church - The Church was not established with Peter’s confession. Matthew 16 establishes what Peter’s role will be when the Church was established. The Church itself didn’t come into being until the Holy Spirit decended on the Apostles and our Blessed Mother on Pentacost (Acts 2: 1 - 4)
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HMarieH
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I read the link that Mr. Todd Easton gave to me. I feel that answering his disagreement might be rather arduous. In John 1:42 we see Simon being renamed Cephas. I hope makes some sense to everone reading. 1 Cor 1:12-13 shows many people at Corinth calling themselves after various men, among them is Cephas. Peter was not crucified nor are we baptized into Peter. What I am saying is that the Catholic Church seems to be a group of people, or rather the decendants and followers thereof, that called themselves after Peter.
Wasn’t the Church established on Peter’s confession? Do you not know what Peter’s confession was? It was Christ and his true existance. The true cheif cornerstone of the Church was Jesus. Isaiah 28:16 prophecies of this cornerstone. Matt 21:42 mentions how at first the cheif cornerstone was rejected by the builders. Acts 4:10-11 says that Jesus is the cheif cornerstone. Isaiah 28:16 says that this stone, and not Peter, would be used for the foundation.
Yes, my question was a trick question. I used it to get things going here.
Wasn’t the Church established on Peter’s confession? Do you not know what Peter’s confession was? It was Christ and his true existance. The true cheif cornerstone of the Church was Jesus. Isaiah 28:16 prophecies of this cornerstone. Matt 21:42 mentions how at first the cheif cornerstone was rejected by the builders. Acts 4:10-11 says that Jesus is the cheif cornerstone. Isaiah 28:16 says that this stone, and not Peter, would be used for the foundation.
Yes, my question was a trick question. I used it to get things going here.
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Elzee
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It may be a trick question to get things going, but the answer remains the same! I agree with Grace and Glory - “Both”.
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NotWorthy
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Apples and Oranges.
Yes, it’s Christ’s Church. You’ll get no argument from any of us, here. But Christ knew that he would need someone to head the Church on Earth until His return. Hence, you’ll see Him leaving the Keys to the Kingdom with Peter, and Peter only. He gives the power to bind and loose to the Apostles as a whole, but only Peter got the Keys.
You’ll notice in Isaiah 22: 20-22, where the keys to the kingdom give the prime minister the power to run the kingdom (“What you shall shut, none shall open. What you open, none shall shut…”) until the king returns.
So, yes, Peter was the first Pope of Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church, “and the gates of hell shall never prevail against her…”.
Now, how 'bout them apples?
NotWorthy
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Genesis315
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I always thought this was the best evidence. People can argue all day about who or what the rock is (I believe it’s Peter), but I don’t see how one can argue with the keys passage when compared to this passage from Isaiah. King David, if I’m not mistaken, prefigures Jesus so this comparison is pretty straightforward. I think what many Protestants forget–because they are waiting for the Millenium when Jesus will physically rule on earth–is that Christ is ruling as King now. And as King, He has delegated some authority to His representative until He returns, just as David did above.
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NotWorthy
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I’m not sure if David pre-figures Jesus (although I won’t argue with you, there), but David does set the precedent for the kingship of Messiah, which is prophesied to come from the House of David.I always thought this was the best evidence. People can argue all day about who or what the rock is (I believe it’s Peter), but I don’t see how one can argue with the keys passage when compared to this passage from Isaiah. King David, if I’m not mistaken, prefigures Jesus so this comparison is pretty straightforward. I think what many Protestants forget–because they are waiting for the Millenium when Jesus will physically rule on earth–is that Christ is ruling as King now. And as King, He has delegated some authority to His representative until He returns, just as David did above.
So we get the traditions of the Papacy and Mary being the Queen of Heaven (from Bathsheba the Gebirah) from the kingship of David.
NotWorthy
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HMarieH
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Wasn’t the Church established on Peter’s confession? Do you not know what Peter’s confession was? It was Christ and his true existance. The true cheif cornerstone of the Church was Jesus. Isaiah 28:16 prophecies of this cornerstone. Matt 21:42 mentions how at first the cheif cornerstone was rejected by the builders. Acts 4:10-11 says that Jesus is the cheif cornerstone. Isaiah 28:16 says that this stone, and not Peter, would be used for the foundation.
Can we agree upon that, that Jesus was the foundation for the Church the Cheif cornerstone?
Can we agree upon that, that Jesus was the foundation for the Church the Cheif cornerstone?
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Christ is the head of the Church, not the Pope, and not Peter. Eph 1:22 and Eph 5:23 show that Christ is the head of the Church.
What did Peter do with the key to the kingdom? Just what the Holy Spirit told him to. Does anyone have the Holy Sporit whispering things in our mind of reform that one might be Pope?
Peter did not do what he pleased to as just a man but as a man of God. An office, not Pope, that we do see in the Bible is that of an elder and that of a deacon. They are seen in 1 Tim 3 Where did we decide that we were do have a Pope?
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ElizabethJoy
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No. It was established upon Peter, the person, previously called Simon Bar Jonah. Jesus gave him a new name, “Kepha” (rock) “and upon this rock I will build my church.”
There is a huge wealth of information here in these CA tracts:
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
You won’t find the word “Pope” in the Bible. You do find the idea of offices and a skeletal heirarchy of priests and bishops both in scripture and in the histories of the early church. (get the book called The Four Witnesses - it’s a fabulous compendium of the most important facts recorded by the early church fathers - fascinating material!)
As the early church grew, it became necessary to fit a larger heirarchy into the original structure, just as a company that begins with a small garage-shipping operation has very different needs for administration and structure a few years later when it’s shipping hundreds or thousands of orders an hour, like amazon.com did.
The church has extended its ministries and evangelization to radio, television and the internet, and problems have come up which didn’t require entire staffs to handle them in the past (such as abortion) so there are many more offices in the Vatican today than there were fifty years ago.
Elizabeth
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Genesis315
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First off, no one is saying Christ isn’t head of the Church. The pope is most definitely a servant of Jesus. Now, you also need to acknowlegde that Jesus doesn’t change someone’s name just because he’s His buddy and He feels like giving him a nickname. It’s all for a reason–and a significant one at that.
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But_for_Grace
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HMarieH - Does anyone confuse the Steward for the King? Scripture is perfectly clear that Peter recieved the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, this does not mean that anyone, Catholic or Protestant, thinks that he IS Christ. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, that is that he is the steward of the heavenly Kingdom, the shepherd of God’s flock (see John 21), but it does not mean that he is the one we rest our hope of salvation upon. However, that being said, we do look to him for guidance.
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NotWorthy
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What happens to Churches on Earth that follow Christ teachings without an earthly leadership? They break up! We see this countless times. Someone questions the truth, everyone argues, and “PRESTO!”, you have two churches. I don’t think the bible wanted this, “One Faith, One Teaching, …”
HMarieH, in your own words, “Let’s all agree” that Christ is the Cornerstone! YES, that’s an easy one. Nobody is arguing that. But Christ said He would build HIS Church (Yes, it’s still Christ’s Church) on the Rock (Kepha). He didn’t say upon your confession I will build My Church, although I haven’t checked any of the re-translations of the KJV recently (Maybe the next edition,eh?).
Anyway, good luck.
NotWorthy
HMarieH, in your own words, “Let’s all agree” that Christ is the Cornerstone! YES, that’s an easy one. Nobody is arguing that. But Christ said He would build HIS Church (Yes, it’s still Christ’s Church) on the Rock (Kepha). He didn’t say upon your confession I will build My Church, although I haven’t checked any of the re-translations of the KJV recently (Maybe the next edition,eh?).
Anyway, good luck.
NotWorthy
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HMarieH
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I am going to leave this argument to someone who has studied the Bible longer than I have and knows more greek and hebrew than I do. Please take a look at this site which breaks it all down into tiny pieces.
bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-16-18.htm
bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-16-18.htm
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mercygate
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Well, I read New Testament Greek. Right off, your article starts out disparaging the men who learned the faith at the feet of the Apostles as the “so-called Church Fathers.” Hardly an optimistic beginning.
Yes. The Church is founded on Peter’s confession. Yes. Jesus is THE Rock. But the Church is also built upon Peter: “upon this rock.” No Peter, no Confession. No Peter, no Church.
Even Protestants agree that there is no other way of looking at Mt 16:18-19. Look here: itsjustdave1988.blogspot.com/2005/04/upon-this-rock-is-rock-of-matt-1618.html.
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HMarieH
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If you know Greek so well than why don’t you know this. Peter’s name is translated Petros in Greek, meaning stone. But rock, in Matt 16:18, is translated in the Greek as Petra which means bedrock. If you have any idea what bedrock is than you will know it is an excellent rock often used for a very stable foundation. Did you know that bedrock even resists damage in an earthquake? Not only that but the rest of the building will not get very much damage, if any. See 72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:8dsW77xqID4J:faculty.fortlewis.edu/hannula_k/courses/geol_107/labs/lab6_earthquakes.doc+bedrock+strength+comparison+foundation+materials+graph&hl=en
that link if you do not trust my information on bedrock. Christ is bedrock and Peter is just stone.
Oh, and I was wrong. The Church was not founded on Peter’s confession, but rather Christ himself! Look at the Greek. Once again, in my last post, I cited a link talking about the greek and the scriptures.
that link if you do not trust my information on bedrock. Christ is bedrock and Peter is just stone.
Oh, and I was wrong. The Church was not founded on Peter’s confession, but rather Christ himself! Look at the Greek. Once again, in my last post, I cited a link talking about the greek and the scriptures.
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