What is going on in this forum?

[Cat]

Cat
I can tell that this is a hot button issue for you but you need to look at this through “Catholic” eyes.
Some of these things do not belong in the Mass. Bishops approval or not. The inability of some Bishops to be liturgically correct is the reason some may (wrongly) slander them on these boards. It is emotional on Both sides.
When we raise our hands, have a rock band, have cutsy little plays for the homily, clap, dance, and have line dance style hand signals for songs. We are taking the focus away from the WHOLE REASON for our faith, our source and summit… The Eucharist. We are focusing on ourselves, our feelings, our emotions and not allowing reverence, humbleness, obedience and true worship to take place.
Protestants have to have these things because they lack the Fullness of Truth and the Real Presence. they have to find a way to create a high, or a feeling that some get addicted too. We don’t need and shouldn’t have that fakeness in our Mass. It is not a social time it is not a fair. I am sure that if we gave away I-pods and icecream people would come to Church too but the fact is we don’t need or want that kind of fake faith.
The Mass is about Him AND us together worshiping and healing in the way He wants us too. Not about our prosac feelings.

Boldface mine. EXACTLY! I agree with you ENTIRELY! I’m so glad we’re in agreement!

And of course, since it’s not about our “prosac” feelings, that means that we do not need quiet at Mass. We do not need incense. We do not need the bells. We do not need organ music. We do not need chant. We do not need kneeling. We do not need a specific kind of architecture. We do not need icons or images.

We as Catholics don’t need ANYTHING to help us “feel” reverent during Mass, since all of our focus is on Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and His Holy Sacrifice for us.

Right?

 

[catharina]

This is the first thread where I experienced that the usage of NO was thought of as a dirty term as well on the forums and in real life. I’m actually surprised that it is considered offensive.
In real life, (meaning outside of forums) prior to maybe 6-8 months ago, I have always heard of the mass as the NO mass or the Novus Ordo and the TLM for the Latin Mass. At my parish we always referred to our “Latin NO Mass” which has been going on for at least 30+ years. (TLM not offered yet.) Then more recently, I’m seeing new references to EF and OF, so I don’t mind using those references as well.

As a person of a racially mixed background, I’ve experienced real damaging and offensive terminology and treatment towards me, my siblings and my mother. I’ve experienced truly offensive remarks which at times when I was younger wished that I was not who I was - totally hurting my poor mother. So, having experiencing that, I’ve thought about this, and I still can’t see how “NO” ie. Novus Ordo would be considered offensive. I’ve known other Catholics who literally had crosses burnt on their lawns back in the 1950s in the northeast because they were the only Catholics in town and my father and his brothers being called “Papists” in a very derogatory manner due to the fact they and one other family were the only Catholics on the street. (I’ve never heard the word papist used as a nice term.) Now those things are truly offensive and damaging. All that NO it mean is New Order and was never used, to the best of my knowledge and experience, as a derogatory term. I’ve never met a person in real life who was a offended by that.

Now whoever was offended by that on this thread, can’t have his/her feelings negated, and I’m sorry that he/she feels this way. Perhaps he/she did experienced it used in a bad way and that’s a shame.

Hi. I’m sorry for your past troubles. Re “what’s offensive?” I’ll add a “me too.” The KKK burned a cross on the lawn of the rectory at my childhood parish in Chicago It happened seven years before I was born but I surely consider it to be offensive, relevant and recent history. As far as the designation “NO,” I know of only the one person on this thread who has stated he finds it offensive and I’ve been posting on this forum for almost a year.

(I can think of no valid reason why it should be considered offensive.)

 

[Cat]

Matt, I have to ask: have you ever seen such things at any Catholic Mass?
I only ask because I’m 62 yrs old and I’ve never seen anything remotely like it.

I’ve only been Catholic for four years, so my opinion isn’t as experienced as catharinas. But I agree–I have never seen the things you mention at Mass, other than hand-clapping for certain songs, and then only a few times in all four years. It’s hardly a regular practice. Come to think of it, the only songs I’ve ever heard it during are the closing hymns, when Mass is “over.”

I have never seen dancing in Mass.

I have never seen “line dance style hand signals” in Mass, although I confess that I’ve only been line dancing at the YMCA, so maybe they do hand signals in bars.

I’ve never seen cutesy little plays for homilies in Mass.

Come to think of it, I never saw any of this type of stuff in any of the evangelical fellowships that I was part of, other than the hand-clapping for certain songs. All of the churches that I was part of considered dancing in the same “taboo” category as liquor and movies on Sunday.

Stop exaggerating. There is no need to make me or any other Protestant convert out to be something that we never have been and never will be. And there is no need to ridicule the worship services of our Protestant brothers and sisters. Remember that many of us started our journey to the Catholic Church in Protestant fellowships. In spite of all the starkness of these worship services compared to the richness of the Holy Mass, a Protestant worship service is a place where Christians meet to worship and serve God, and for that reason, respect is due.

 

[ibkc]

And of course, since it’s not about our “prosac” feelings, that means that we do not need quiet at Mass. We do not need incense. We do not need the bells. We do not need organ music. We do not need chant. We do not need kneeling. We do not need a specific kind of architecture. We do not need icons or images.

We as Catholics don’t need ANYTHING to help us “feel” reverent during Mass, since all of our focus is on Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and His Holy Sacrifice for us.

Right?

No, wrong. The things you mention are things which developed organically over a period of hundreds - thousands - of years. They are there because they enhance the solemnity and reverence of the mass. They are not there because someone, one day, arbitrarily decided to stick them in there. And that is the point I was trying to make earlier. Evangelical worship styles developed along the same lines - because they are appropriate to the evangelical approach to worship. Someone else mentioned how silly it would be to go into a Baptist church and genuflect towards the nearest cross and do other distinctly Catholic “things” such as crossing oneself and insisting on chant. That idea is really the flip side of what many of us feel when we see Protestantisms in the mass. Heck, I didn’t care for “Protestantisms” when I was an Episcopalian, either.

 

[Cat]

I’m sorry if you think I am trying to assign “blame”. I am trying to point out a possible reason. That it was not something that the Church herself started.

Even dissident priests or nuns didn’t wake up one morning saying I think I will clap my hands, raise them up, and shout to the Lord, whatever…there was an influence from somewhere. Things just don’t usually “pop up” without having some starting point and how can something like that be p(name removed by moderator)ointed?

I have read the same line of thinking in other places, but I’m sorry, I have been reading so much I cannot tell you where. Maybe I can find it.

You will notice in my post I said “I think” they may have come from…not…’'those horrible protestants did this and it’s all there fault!"

If you think about it, it’s not such a leap to assume there is protestant influence. We have a large number of converts (which is great) and many of the things Cat mentioned are things very typical of many evangelical/protestant churches. **Cat herself, is proposing that they are *totally appropriate ***to the Mass. She makes mention of other converts in one of her posts that are the same. I bet if you could ask people that participate in this way you would find that most have evangelical backgrounds. That is not a condemnation…that is what they are used to…

I think that Cat and many others are truly sincere but because in their past denominations it was totally acceptable does not mean it is appropriate for the Mass.

Boldface mine–I have read through ALL of my posts on this thread.

I have NOT proposed that any of these things are totally appropriate for the Mass.

I have NOT said this!

I have said over and over that it is up to the BISHOP to determine what is and what is NOT appropriate for the Holy Mass. I have said this on other threads many times throughout CAF–it is up to the BISHOP, not the laymen like me. Thank God.

This is why these forums get testy–because we do not pay attention to what others actually write, then we make untrue or spurious assumptions about them, and then we spread our “errors of interpretation” to others on the Forum. Then others decide that certain posters are “trouble makers”, and then the hostility starts.

I apologize for my hostility at the moment, but if there’s one thing that yanks my chain, it’s being falsely accused of writing things that I never wrote.

BTW, to those who don’t think these things are appropriate for Mass–do you also agree that CRYING is inappropriate, since it is NOT part of the Liturgy? Do youthink that all those people who start spontaneously crying during hymns, Scripture reading, after receiving Jesus in Holy Communion, etc., should be rebuked for adding to the liturgy?

I would be thrown out of Massat least once a month, and so would my husband and so would many converts–we are the ones who often spontaneously start crying because we are so emotionally touched by the beauty and truth of the Mass.

In fact, a month ago, I was so caught up in Father’s beautiful prayer (out of the Sacramentary, not something extemporaneous) before the Sanctus that I totally forgot to give the musical cue for the Sanctus (I play piano). I was just standing there with my eyes closed and my hands folded. It was really really QUIET in the church, and I opened my eyes and saw Father staring at me, and then he kindly began reciting the Sanctus, and the people followed. So should I be chastized as “tampering with the liturgy” for allowing my human emotions to interfere with the liturgy?! I certainly hope not.

Hand-raising, believe it or not, is an emotional reaction that some people have when they are deeply worshipping God. I don’t know what some of you think it is, but I think you are talking about a different thing than I am. You’re making it sound like some kind of perversion or show trick. I’m talking about an emotional reaction that some people have when they are worshipping the Lord. In I Timothy 2: 8, St. Paul says, “I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.” Sounds good to me.

 

[Matt33]

I’ve only been Catholic for four years, so my opinion isn’t as experienced as catharinas. But I agree–I have never seen the things you mention at Mass, other than hand-clapping for certain songs, and then only a few times in all four years. It’s hardly a regular practice. Come to think of it, the only songs I’ve ever heard it during are the closing hymns, when Mass is “over.”

I have never seen dancing in Mass.

I have never seen “line dance style hand signals” in Mass, although I confess that I’ve only been line dancing at the YMCA, so maybe they do hand signals in bars.

I’ve never seen cutesy little plays for homilies in Mass.

Come to think of it, I never saw any of this type of stuff in any of the evangelical fellowships that I was part of, other than the hand-clapping for certain songs. All of the churches that I was part of considered dancing in the same “taboo” category as liquor and movies on Sunday.

Stop exaggerating. There is no need to make me or any other Protestant convert out to be something that we never have been and never will be. And there is no need to ridicule the worship services of our Protestant brothers and sisters. Remember that many of us started our journey to the Catholic Church in Protestant fellowships. In spite of all the starkness of these worship services compared to the richness of the Holy Mass, a Protestant worship service is a place where Christians meet to worship and serve God, and for that reason, respect is due.

Cat, I am obviously not speaking your language here.
If you read up a few posts I indicate that in my town this is common practice and I think it can be common practice in places that are in direct competition with protestant cultures for pew attendance. The bible belt, or in my case, Mormon land.
I was not exaggerating so please don’t accuse me of doing that. just accept my experience for what it is. Why is that so hard for some who just seem to want to see things thier way. You are lucky that you are in a parish where this does not occur. I am envious.
Cat, you and I will have to agree to disagree here.
I see that you have only been Catholic 4 years. It is good that you realize that you may have much to learn, AS DO I. I was in dicernmet at a house of priests after my conversion 15 years ago. I am a youth misister at a Parish in my hometown and involved with liturgical decisions. ( Though not as much as I’d like to be) You would do well to not overlook that thousands of years of Tradition in worsh(name removed by moderator)ing the Eucharist. With the smells and bells that it involved. You would do well to think of our Jewish heritage in faith when they placed the Showbread in thier temple. the oblations that have always been a part of our Church and our relationship with God. To put them on par with protestant gimmicks only belies your bias and perhaps well meaning thought process.

 

[Matt33]

Boldface mine–I have read through ALL of my posts on this thread.

I have NOT proposed that any of these things are totally appropriate for the Mass.

IBTW, to those who don’t think these things are appropriate for Mass–do you also agree that CRYING is inappropriate, since it is NOT part of the Liturgy? Do youthink that all those people who start spontaneously crying during hymns, Scripture reading, after receiving Jesus in Holy Communion, etc., should be rebuked for adding to the liturgy?

I would be thrown out of Massat least once a month, and so would my husband and so would many converts–we are the ones who often spontaneously start crying because we are so emotionally touched by the beauty and truth of the Mass.

In fact, a month ago, I was so caught up in Father’s beautiful prayer (out of the Sacramentary, not something extemporaneous) before the Sanctus that I totally forgot to give the musical cue for the Sanctus (I play piano). I was just standing there with my eyes closed and my hands folded. It was really really QUIET in the church, and I opened my eyes and saw Father staring at me, and then he kindly began reciting the Sanctus, and the people followed. So should I be chastized as “tampering with the liturgy” for allowing my human emotions to interfere with the liturgy?! I certainly hope not.

.

This is one of the most rediculous things I have read on these forums to date! Are you serious??? Crying has been around in the liturgy since well, the 1st mayrter. It is an uncontrollable emotion. You are not thinking clearly. Perhaps you are too heated to see the difference between look at me praisin with ma hands! and weeping. Perhaps a good weep at mass would do all of us well when we are contemplating the last supper, the crucifiction and the perfect love. IN short do at mass what you would do if you were at the last supper or at the foot of the cross. Fell free to weep at a funeral Mass but please keep your hands and AMEN BROTHERS To yourself!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Mat & Cat, I hate doing this, but you both are explaining your personal feelings and not giving validity to that of the other. Each of you has a right to feel the way you do about your own feelings,defined by your faith journey but have not been in the others shoes to understand where he/she is coming from. Feelings can be some of the most difficult things to explain, and we are seeing this. As I see it, you both need to agree to disagree, with no buts or howevers. I say this fraternally, as I care for you both and respect your posts.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Matt33]

Mat & Cat, I hate doing this, but you both are explaining your personal reactions and not giving validity to that of the other. Each of you has a right to feel the way you do about your own feelings, but have not been in the others shoes to understand where he/she is coming from. Feelings can be some of the most difficult things to explain, and we are seeing this. As I see it, you both need to agree to disagree, with no buts or howevers. I say this fraternally, as I care for you both and respect your posts.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Thank you deacon, you are correct. Feeling and emotions run high here. Thanks for some common sense fraternal correction.

Cat, I am sorry. please accept my apology.

 

[Cat]

This is one of the most rediculous things I have read on these forums to date! Are you serious??? Crying has been around in the liturgy since well, the 1st mayrter. It is an uncontrollable emotion. You are not thinking clearly. Perhaps you are too heated to see the difference between look at me praisin with ma hands! and weeping. Perhaps a good weep at mass would do all of us well when we are contemplating the last supper, the crucifiction and the perfect love. IN short do at mass what you would do if you were at the last supper or at the foot of the cross. Fell free to weep at a funeral Mass but please keep your hands and AMEN BROTHERS To yourself!

You said that “crying has been around in the liturgy since the 1st martyr.” Where is it written that the people will cry and that this is acceptable behavior at Mass? And where is it written that people will NOT lift their hands in praise and that this is NOT acceptable behavior at Mass?

Both are emotional reactions to what is happening at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Please stop using “country language,” e.g., praisin with ma hands." I don’t understand why you are doing this. To me, it sounds like you are making fun of me.

**If I were at the Last Supper or at the foot of the cross–and I am at the foot of the cross every time I am at Mass–I would certainly cry. But I would probably also lift my hands up and reach out to my Lord. ** So according to what you are saying–“do at Mass what you would do at the Last Supper or at the foot of the cross”–it would be very appropriate for me and others to both cry AND lift our
hands out to our Lord.

By what authority do you tell us to keep our hands and AMEN BROTHERS to ourselves? Do you have the authority to tell people this? Or is it written down somewhere in some official Catholic guideline for the Mass?

Yes, I know that it is written down that those in attendance at Mass should not deliberately call attention to themselves. Hand-raising does not have to be a spectacle. When I have seen it, is has been very subtle–simply a reaching out to Jesus.

BTW, hand-raising does not involve touching anyone.

And where exactly did I mention saying “Amen, brother?” I did not. Again, I don’t understand why you keep adding things that I never said.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m not categorizing people, I’m generalizing about a perspective. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be offered the Novus Ordo. I do say, and will always say, that it is an inferior liturgy, due to a paucity of theological content.

The Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Mass are obviously very different liturgies. If they weren’t we wouldn’t be having these discussions so much.

Obviously the New Mass is easy to understand. It’s in the vernacular and the prayers are simplified.

Here’s a passage by a young priest who writes under the pseudonym of Edward Faber:

“The amusing thing is that conservatives are intent on upholding the authority of the Pauline Missal against the traditionalists. One well known priest once wrote, “I actually see no real difference between the two missals,” which was as great discredit to his reputation as a scholar. The line is that the New Mass is not really New, despite the fact that a careful reading of Bugnini’s The Reform of the Roman Liturgy reveals that it is all new and that the so-called restorations are questionable indeed and the work was written in fact as a justification for the unjustifiable.1 The liturgists realize the New Mass is new, the liberals realize the New Mass is new, everyone in the Church realizes the New Mass is new except for the conservatives.”

This may be just me, but I am not so impressed by sentiments attibuted to priests who publish under pseudonyms. For all I know, the author isn’t even a Catholic, let alone a priest. I’m not saying that he isn’t. I’m saying that if this priest will not identify himself, there is no way to know. The contention that an anonymous source is a priest adds essentially nothing, IMHO.

I would tell him what I will say to you: like what you like, argue what you like, but please be respectful enough to use wording and implications other than “inferior” when referring to the ordinary form of the liturgy which is, like the EF, the source and summit of Christian life, which is the Lord’s Supper, which is the Holy Mass, which is the Holy Sacrifice, which is the Holy and Divine Liturgy, which is always offered by Christ Himself, the Eternal High Priest of the New Covenant, at which the Eucharistic Sacrifice offered * is *Christ Himself, living and glorious, present in a true, real, and substantial manner: His Body, His Blood, with His Soul and His Divinity.

IMHO, it would be preferable that you say, if you think it so, that the text of the EF is more theologically dense, that the ritual form makes the reality which is present more obvious in some way, that, for whatever reasons you have, you think it objectively true that of all valid forms of the Mass it is the preferable choice…whatever you think. It would be preferable though, if, always and everywhere, we always and clearly gave each and every valid form of the rite the full respect due to it on account of the infinite graces it makes present.

That’s all *we’re *saying.

 

[catharina]

Mat & Cat, I hate doing this, but you both are explaining your personal feelings and not giving validity to that of the other. Each of you has a right to feel the way you do about your own feelings,defined by your faith journey but have not been in the others shoes to understand where he/she is coming from. Feelings can be some of the most difficult things to explain, and we are seeing this. As I see it, you both need to agree to disagree, with no buts or howevers. I say this fraternally, as I care for you both and respect your posts.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Deacon Ed, I thank you for calling a Time Out and am so glad that the action didn’t fall to me.

When one wishes to “have word” with a convert about one’s OWN opinion, then I wish it were done in private - and Deacon Ed, I don’t mean you. No good can come from a brow-beating manner nor from a patronizing use of stereotypical phrases.

I think it’s been humbling - for me anyway - to come to know of most Protestants’ reverence for, love of and knowledge of the Scripture. When my own father’s funeral Mass was celebrated quite correctly some years ago, it meant a lot to my family and his friends that we could choose to make use of “How Great Tho Art” as the recessional hymn. So many of our neighbors and his associates were from (multiple) Protestant backgrounds that it felt so comforting to make use of a hymn that was familiar to all of us. Certainly we didn’t expect that any of these “visitors” would or could be familiar with the “Panis Angelicus” that was the Communion hymn. I hope all of us work hard to remember that we are not “protecting” the Church or the litugy from one another. That would be a great start for all. Let’s move charity and mutual respect to its rightful place. May Our Lord bless all of us in our efforts.

 

[Matt33]

Deacon Ed, I thank you for calling a Time Out and am so glad that the action didn’t fall to me.

I think it’s been humbling - for me anyway - to come to know of most Protestants’ reverence for, love of and knowledge of the Scripture. .

Amen sister!
And even more humbling when they bring that knowlege to the Church and view it through a Catholic lense. It can be amazing how timid the average Catholic is when it comes to scripture and it can be amazing how misled the average protestant can be when trying to interpret on thier own. But put the two together and the Church has quite a gift in the converts!

 

[catharina]

Matt - I’ll say this you. I’m a lifelong Catholic. So are my siblings. So were my parents and grandparents and their parents too. Yet I have two sisters-in-law who are Protestants and many relatives who are Jewish. Regarding the Protestant relatives and their families, I’d never use a phrase such as ‘keep your "Amen Brother"s to yourself.’ It sounds like you’re being disrespectful even if that wasn’t your intent. Ditto for some of your other (previous) remarks about Protestant practices. Why go there? Don’t we need to be extra careful not to offend one another?

 

[Matt33]

Matt - I’ll say this you. I’m a lifelong Catholic. So are my siblings. So were my parents and grandparents and their parents too. Yet I have two sisters-in-law who are Protestants and many relatives who are Jewish. Regarding the Protesatnt relatives and their families, I’d never use a phrase such as ‘keep your "Amen Brother"s to yourself.’ It sounds like you’re being disrespectful even if that wasn’t your intent. Ditto for some of your other (previous) remarks about Protestant practices. Why go there? Don’t we need to be extra careful not to offend one another?

I guess but really I am not meaning to be. lots of people put up thier little Iconic smiley faces that say amen. I get so tired of tiptoeing around not to offend some people that just love to be offended. Especially in type it is so hard to read. As for my post to Cat I appologized for that as to your post I said amen (which means I agree) and sister (you are one in Christ) Actually I feel a little funny having to explain this. The smiley was because we are talking about Protestants and some I know talk like that. Appropriately title thread. I feel as if I cant even type today. I certainly am not expressing myself well.

 

[catharina]

I guess but really I am not meaning to be. lots of people put up thier little Iconic smiley faces that say amen. I get so tired of tiptoeing around not to offend some people that just love to be offended. Especially in type it is so hard to read. As for my post to Cat I appologized for that as to your post I said amen (which means I agree) and sister (you are one in Christ) Actually I feel a little funny having to explain this. The smiley was because we are talking about Protestants and some I know talk like that. Appropriately title thread. I feel as if I cant even type today. I certainly am not expressing myself well.

Yes, GREAT title for this thread.

 

[Matt33]

I gotta go for now. I ahve things to do and I just need a break.
I’ll be back later. Sorry to all that are in a tizzy. Please do me a favor and hold spiller to the same standard as me!

 

[catharina]

I gotta go for now. I ahve things to do and I just need a break.
I’ll be back later. Sorry to all that are in a tizzy. Please do me a favor and hold spiller to the same standard as me!

I do, for sure!

 

[BSHoop96]

You’re right. I didn’t state that a lay person who goes to the NO, or even the NO when the protocols aren’t followed, is disobedient.

I don’t use terms like “disobedient.” Everybody on this forum is pretty sure of his or her faith, and more than likely has a priest to teach them obedience.

What I’m talking about is the refusal, ideologically, to acknowledge and accept what the Vatican, the Pope, and other authorities have written.

This forum shouldn’t really be a discussion of any actual people, only of liturgy.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

It’s nothing more than just a power struggle…People decide they are going to tell the rest of us what to believeI go to church for that…I listen to the Pope for that…

I am totally with you here. The only ones I let tell me what to believe make up a thing called the Magisterium.
Prayers & blessings
deacon Ed B