What is going on in this forum?

[moosears]

Well if I weren’t tied up with other things I really would’ve liked participating in this forum more than I have. It seems that this one has been relatively tame compared to many past threads. Unfortunately, I will be leaving town for a Family reunion and I do not possess the modern technology of a laptop so I will be away from my computer until late Saturday evening. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed following this thread as it has progressed and will try to check in when I return.
It just occurred to me that there probably is nothing more traditional in the human experience as arguing. Nothing wrong with a good debate but name calling and throwing a tizzy is hardly an argument. However, such, I guess, is to be expected sometimes from such frail beings as the human race.

Thanks be to God, He knows our weaknesses better than we know ourselves. And he gives His grace in spite of ourselves. Please pray for me, each and every one of you. My family and I are just now coming into full communion with Rome (after 14 yrs with an independent group where we 1st converted) and we are trying to find our place in the Church. We have very few Catholic friends at this time and it has been a difficult time for us. I don’t need to cry on anyone’s shoulder but I do need prayers and some direction. God has blessed us abundantly since the transition but I tend to be a little less patient than He is and wish things would move along faster.

Be assured of my prayers as well and God bless you all! Pax Tecum!

 

[frenchlady]

Who’s “Jack Chick”?

Jack Chick writes anti-Catholic comic books using by some/many fundamentalists. You can find them online by doing a google search.

Sorry if this has been answered already.

 

[Cat]

Cat,

Just to be clear this is what you said that iniated my first response.

At the same time, many of us also cherish the good things about our Protestant past. There is no reason for us to cast off like filthy rags all these wonderful things–Gospel music, Christian rock music, giving a word of testimony, clapping hands, lifting hands in worship, emotional responses to music and prayers, etc. These practices are NOT filthy rags and they do not keep us from being "good Catholics."

You stated that there is no reason to cast them off. So this obviously meant to many of us that you apparently think they are fine. In the Mass. We chose to respond with the reasons that we did not think so.

Yes, you did say it is up to the Bishop. We are aware of that.

Once again, I will point out that no where in that post or any post did I state that these things should be added to the Mass. It is not up to any laymen what should be added or taken away from Mass.

I think that if the Bishop is OK with something, it’s OK. Our bishop is Thomas Doran, one of the most orthodox and conservative bishops in the U.S. (on par with Bishop Burke). And he seems to be OK with these things when they happen.

 

[Cat]

Thank you deacon, you are correct. Feeling and emotions run high here. Thanks for some common sense fraternal correction.

Cat, I am sorry. please accept my apology.

Thank you for the apology, Matt33.

I would love to continue this discussion, but I think it is impossible in a forum setting. People don’t know each other well enough, and we make assumptions about each other and our parishes, dioceses, and bishops that simply aren’t true, and then the entire discussion becomes defensive as people try to defend themselves against false accusations.

Maybe what we all need is a MySpace page, or a FaceBook page, so that people could get to know the “real us.”

For anyone who wants to get to know the real me, go to my website: jazzicals.com/

It’s actually the promotional site for my novels, but reading a person’s promotional site will tell you a lot about the person. Underneath all the “fiction” on that page is a lot of truth about me.

And be on the lookout in the next month or so for an update to the website; I have a new novel coming out.

 

[Unitas]

Once again, I will point out that no where in that post or any post did I state that these things should be added to the Mass. It is not up to any laymen what should be added or taken away from Mass.

I think that if the Bishop is OK with something, it’s OK. Our bishop is Thomas Doran, one of the most orthodox and conservative bishops in the U.S. (on par with Bishop Burke). And he seems to be OK with these things when they happen.

So can I do backflips down the aisle during the consecration as long as the bishop says it’s ok?

A bishop’s power is not without limits. What can be done/said during mass is governed by the GIRM/missal. Just because it’s doesn’t say you can’t do something doesn’t mean it’s allowed or appropriate.

 

[BSHoop96]

** I was baptized a Catholic on January 10th 1946 during a dreadful blizzard in Chicago. Nonetheless, having worked with little children for decades, I’ll happily admit that I’ve appreciated the song “Jesus loves me” since I first heard it about fifty years ago.

No - I’m not suggesting it be incorporated at any Mass; I’m only saying I really like the song.

If you don’t like the song, please forgive me! OK?**

??? I must have missed a post.

I love “How Great Thou Art” and while I was on vacation in CA this summer I actually heard it at Mass (with a choir). I love that song and looked at the words in all the verses and couldn’t figure out why it might be objectionable. It’s not in either one of our hymnals. It’s certainly not a “modern” song. Off-thread but does anyone know a specific reason for this one?

 

[BSHoop96]

Wow … I’m a cradle Catholic and I have to admit, you had me a bit worried there until I saw your punch line. :bigyikes:

~~ the phoenix

P.S. The real reason why I’m using the :bigyikes: emoticon is because it’s a fun emoticon to use and I rarely get to indulge. If there was a happy sigh-of-relief-and-we’re-all-friends-here emoticon, that would be the one that really fits.

I think I shall now return to lurk mode …

you’re funny! :bigyikes:

…he had me going too!

 

[catharina]

So can I do backflips down the aisle during the consecration as long as the bishop says it’s ok?

A bishop’s power is not without limits. What can be done/said during mass is governed by the GIRM/missal. Just because it’s doesn’t say you can’t do something doesn’t mean it’s allowed or appropriate.

**This post presents the kind of mental imagery that is so offensive when used in relation to the Holy Mass. You had a point. Why not simply make your point?

As to your point, no one said a local bishop has unlimited power. A poster said that she is accepting of her bishop’s decisions. **

 

[catharina]

??? I must have missed a post.

I love “How Great Thou Art” and while I was on vacation in CA this summer I actually heard it at Mass (with a choir). I love that song and looked at the words in all the verses and couldn’t figure out why it might be objectionable. It’s not in either one of our hymnals. It’s certainly not a “modern” song. Off-thread but does anyone know a specific reason for this one?

I think you did miss a post.
You’re responding to one post but maybe you meant to respond to Post 172. It said this:
“I think it’s been humbling - for me anyway - to come to know of most Protestants’ reverence for, love of and knowledge of the Scripture. When my own father’s funeral Mass was celebrated quite correctly some years ago, it meant a lot to my family and his friends that we could choose to make use of “How Great Tho Art” as the recessional hymn. So many of our neighbors and his associates were from (multiple) Protestant backgrounds that it felt so comforting to make use of a hymn that was familiar to all of us. Certainly we didn’t expect that any of these “visitors” would or could be familiar with the “Panis Angelicus” that was the Communion hymn. I hope all of us work hard to remember that we are not “protecting” the Church or the litugy from one another. That would be a great start for all. Let’s move charity and mutual respect to its rightful place. May Our Lord bless all of us in our efforts.”*

My poiont was/is that when my father died some decades ago, How Great Thou Art was a “brand-new hymn” for Catholics although Protestants had been using it for years. It was a simple matter of tradition and what was in use for the times in the Church. I should have clarified that point. Sorry.

 

[Joe_5859]

And how, pray tell, do you think we would have an actual study on this? I think the fact that I was having the discussion with someone from an evangelical background, who was also talking about other evangelicals in her parish, is rather telling in itself.

In trying to explain that it does not fit the Catholic Mass, it is not illogical to point out that it is understandable that these discussions come up, as we have so many converts with a background in evangelical churches where this is very common. Then stating, while it is perfectly fine in a protestant, or non-Catholic if you prefer, service, it is not fine in a Catholic Mass and offering some insights as to why. I will readily admit that a couple of other posters did the job of explaining why much better than I.

You are advocating political correctness for the sake of political correctness. You also seem to have the idea that protestant is considered a bad word. I don’t think so. My family is not Catholic. I was raised in a military family. The base offered a “Catholic” Mass and a “protestant” service. We went to a protestant service. Protestant, meaning in this instance, “everybody else” besides the Catholics. Now that I am a Catholic, I still say protestant meaning no disrespect whatsoever.

Anyway, sorry to go off on you a bit. Now we are just belaboring the point so I will stop.

I suppose we may just have to agree to disagree. I’m not trying to advocate political correctness for its own sake. I’m not trying to say that the term “Protestant” is offensive (although it is to some people I have encountered who adamantly will say that they are not “protesting” anything). All I’m really trying to say is that it’s rather non-descript. It seems to me to be inaccurate to lump all Protestant worship styles under the same umbrella. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say “evangelical”? Also, I think that it gives the impression that we’re blaming the converts for many of the liturgical abuses around today. I’m sure that’s not your intent, but I think it comes off that way.

I’m not a convert, though, so perhaps we should take a poll and see if anyone else is offended or if I’m just being overly-sensitive.

As for how to do a study of the origins of particular “innovations”, you’d have to ask a sociologist that one. All I know is that correlation does not imply causation.

 

[CradleCath]

Yes, you did say it is up to the Bishop. We are aware of that.

Not always. In the end, it’s up to our Pope. There are parishes in California where horribly disfunctional parishes exist. I’m from Missouri, but we visit friends in San Francisco often & attend Mass there when we do. . Each time I pray that things will have have calmed down & each time I find that they haven’t. The abuses are severe & videotapes of some of the activities have been sent to the Vatican. The Pope has a right to know about serious problems which are obviously just fine with the Archbishop George Niederauer & Cardinal Mahony.

"Until 1982, Most Holy Redeemer was a reasonably normal Catholic Parish in San Francisco . But, as Fr. Donald Godfrey, SJ writes in his book Gays and Grays: The Story of the Inclusion of the Gay Community at Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Parish: “Under Father Anthony McGuire–Fr. Tony–the parish was reborn…. Anthony McGuire became the ninth pastor of Most Holy Redeemer parish in 1982.” (p27.) According to Fr. Godfrey’s book, Fr. McGuire was specifically sent by the Archdiocese to Most Holy Redeemer to minister to the gay community.

That was 25 years ago. And after 25 years of “ministry” to the gay community in the Castro, what do we have? Transvestite bingo (sponsored by the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence), participation in the San Francisco Gay Pride Parade, gay religious services broadcast worldwide, Drag Queen beauty pageants, Young Adult Group outings to the “San Francisco Transgender Cotillion.” The “culture” of the Castro has not been evangelized–instead, Most Holy Redeemer has been turned from a Catholic Parish to a gay parish."

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/oct/07101004.html

Any Catholic who lets things like this exist, without doing all in his/her power to stop the abuse, should be ashamed. When members of our hierarchy defy Church teachings, we have a duty to go higher than our Bishop.

 

[redrosetea]

Anyone that knows of this and allows it should be defrocked

 

[Catherine_S]

BR I understand and I hope that Pope Benedict will be able to restore a middle path for us all

I have never seen you badger anyone ,nor follow them around trying to inflect your views on them, as was done to me…I forgive those that did this but I shall ignore them from now on

Some people on both sides are rabid and need to stop trying to push themselves on others who differ

* !***
.

 

[Matt33]

The problem is some of us have reform Bishops some of us have keep the peace Bishops some of us have all kids of bishops. So when talking about what is appropriate for Holy Mass we are getting conflicting responses. Especially here in the US and other democratic places the Bishops seem to act as a branch of our government which leads to a HUGE notion here that “we” should have a vote or say in all things Catholic. This just isn’t how the Church was set up. Why even look at the title of this thread and the bickering that has ensued. This is an election year in the US and some seem to think that that means all stuff is up for debate including Us and our Bishops. The truth is, this is a monarchy with God as King and the Pope as our Vicar. Fidelity to Rome is of upmost importance. For Us and for our Bishops! Liberal Or Conservative. All we can do is pray, learn and submit.

 

[CradleCath]

I agree that the form is integral and without it you can’t have a Mass. **However, the form the Mass takes is not the infinitely valuable part. **

If if was, the form would be beyond any criticism and people like Dietrich von Hildebrand, Cardinal Ottaviani, Cardinal Ratzinger, and Fr. Fessio of Ignatius Press to name a few would be way out of line for critiquing the Novus Ordo liturgy.

Right?? If the form of the Mass was the precious part, it could not have been changed at all. We would have no Novus Ordo Mass.

**It is obvious that when, for instance, von Hildebrand critiques the Novus Ordo in the article in my signature line he is making a distinction between the form of the liturgy and the Mass itself. He obviously would never criticize the infinitely valuable Mass itself.

Thus this distinction between the form of the Mass and the Mass itself is critical, otherwise any critique of the form becomes an attack on the Mass itself, and such is not the case for von Hildebrand or any of the other authors I named.**

Your analogy re the ring & the Mass is a wonderful one. The Eucharist (diamond) is the precious jewel of infinite value, always cherished…unchanging. The Mass (band) encircles the Eucharist & , holds it in it’s proper “place”. The actual celebration of the Sacrifice cannot change, but, as we have seen the “band”…the form of the Mass can. I don’t see how anyone can challenge this because in the 60’s we saw it happen. (I wouldn’t call it a “revision”, but a total disruption of the Mass.) There was a slight revision of the Mass at the Council of Trent. If I remember correctly they added to the Creed. However, it’s true that, prior to Vatican II, such revisions were minute compared to the sweeping changes of that council. Using your comparison, I would say that the council theologians & Fathers thought that the old band had worn out & set about inventing a new one. Such a shame that while doing so, they threw the old band in the trash.

 

[Matt33]

Cradle, As an aside. I love your quote in you sig. We named our two daughters Madeline and Sophie in honor of that saint! I just hope we dont have a third girl because Barat would be a horrible name.

 

[CradleCath]

Cradle, As an aside. I love your quote in you sig. We named our two daughters Madeline and Sophie in honor of that saint! I just hope we dont have a third girl because Barat would be a horrible name.

May the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Whom this women served well, bless your daughters, always.

BTW. A BOY named Barat wouldn’t be so bad, would it?? Or another girl named after St. Sophie’s protege, St. Rose Phillipine Duschene???

 

[BSHoop96]

Once again, I will point out that no where in that post or any post did I state that these things should be added to the Mass. It is not up to any laymen what should be added or taken away from Mass.

I think that if the Bishop is OK with something, it’s OK. Our bishop is Thomas Doran, one of the most orthodox and conservative bishops in the U.S. (on par with Bishop Burke). And he seems to be OK with these things when they happen.

Cat, let me apologize if I hurt your feelings. When you responded, in post #109 I believe, no where did you say “I did not mean in the Mass”. On the contrary, everything in your post inferred, at least to me personally, that you thought it was okay, especially as you backed it up by saying the Bishop thinks it’s okay.* It is my fault if I took it to mean something that you did not intend.* I did not do it out of meanness.

I didn’t respond to the Bishop comment because I didn’t think that he had spoken about these particular things directly. I was thinking that he probably had not spoken of it and you therefore assumed his approval. Again, I should not have done that. For all I know, you could attend a Charismatic parish.

I will not even speak to the point about all Bishops not having everything “by the book”, so to speak, in their parishes as that point has been made by others. Besides that, it must be a terribly hard job and they have to “pick their battles” and maybe have to take one step at a time and I won’t judge that.

My mind rather went to a story I related earlier. My husband, who is converting has been receiving a blessing. I told him he could but then felt something wasn’t right. I spoke to my priest about it and his response was: *“It started years ago and has spread but was not started by the magisterium.” *He went on to say, "I would never refuse a blessing to someone who came forward, but it is a “communion line and not a blessing line”. Also, he said he would speak further about it in RCIA. While he never said anything publicly during Mass “outlawing” it or embarrasing anyone, he is obviously talking about it in RCIA for a reason.

Anyway, we got the message and my husband no longer goes up for the blessing which is fine as we are all blessed at end of Mass anyway. Anyway, that is what came to my mind when you mentioned the Bishop, and again, my assumption.

In any event, let me apologize if I have caused you pain. I did not mean to hurt or insult you and it wasn’t meant personally. We may have things we disagree about but I have read your posts and you seem to be a sincere, dedicated and devout person and who can’t admire that?