What is "good"?

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What’s not taken into consideration here is that God’s will is absolutely good and trumps all acts of men. If God orders genocide or slavery, as in the Old Testament, obviously God is not sinning, and men are not sinning to obey him, just as Abraham was willing to kill Isaac, not by his own will … which would have been evil, but in obedience to God’s will. Whereas if men order such things on their own authority, they are clearly in violation of God’s will. Thales has said all this and I think he has an unanswerable argument.
I think it would be embarrassing to the other posters to explain why this is a horrible bit of reasoning. On what basis do you condemn atrocities committed by other religions in the name of God? I’m assuming you don’t condemn atrocities from your own religion in the name of God, because they “knew what his will was.”
Charlemagne II:
God, in order to protect and advance the cause of His people, that they may not lose heart and perish, has commanded acts that men on their own authority may not commit. While to an atheist this might seem like rank relativism, that is only because the atheist is not able to see God except as no better than the people who believe in Him, never mind that His will in all things is good and to be obeyed. Moreover, it is because the atheist cannot even admit the existence of God that he has to assume the genocide and the slavery ordered in the Old Testament really originated in the minds of men, rather than in the mind of God. If it were true that there is no God, the atheist would have a valid point. 🙂
God is no better than the people who believe in him if he commands genocide and slavery. How could you possibly argue that this is a superior basis of morality? Moral relativity is the view that what is moral is exclusively based on personal preference, regardless of whether it’s man or God. At least admit your standard of morality is relative with relation to God and we can move on.

I’m surprised more Catholics aren’t chiming in on the side of objective morality; is this some sort of group solidarity thing?
 
Locke

Moral relativity is the view that what is moral is exclusively based on personal preference, regardless of whether it’s man or God.Moral relativity is the view that what is moral is exclusively based on personal preference, regardless of whether it’s man or God.

This is an unwarranted assumption as far as God is concerned. Understandably you want to diminish the will and prerogatives of God to those of man. By your logic, God is a murderer because he requires of all of us that we die. By your logic He would be a slave master because He requires all of us to obey His will, even against our own. Yes, those are God’s personal preferences, but they are not at all in the same class as ours. God makes the rules that we must obey, but He is certainly exempt from the rules we must obey, and He may certainly change the rules any time He wants. He truly changed the rules in the most dramatic of ways by dying on the cross for our sake.

If God commands slavery and genocide, it is not because God has suddenly become evil. It is because God has ordered the conditions under which good must triumph over evil. The monotheism of the Jews prepared the way for Jesus and Christianity. Had the Jews perished by genocide or permanent enslavement, there may not have been a house of David, nor a Jesus to be born in the line of David. Neither would there have been prophets to prepare for his coming, nor disciples to carry on the work of evangelizing the world.

*The attitude that one ought to believe such and such a proposition, independently of whether there is evidence in its favor, is an attitude which produces **hostility to evidence /**B]and causes us to close our minds to every fact that ****does not suit our prejudices. - Bertrand Russell

You know, ironically Russell might be talking about his own hostility and his own prejudice. After all, it can never be said that Russell was open-minded about the prospect of religion having a rational basis. His essay “Why I Am Not a Christian” is the most narrow-minded and hostile piece of literature ever written against Christianity.*
 
Locke
This is an unwarranted assumption as far as God is concerned. Understandably you want to diminish the will and prerogatives of God to those of man. By your logic, God is a murderer because he requires of all of us that we die. By your logic He would be a slave master because He requires all of us to obey His will, even against our own.
This is a ridiculous mischaracterization of what I said.
Yes, those are God’s personal preferences, but they are not at all in the same class as ours. God makes the rules that we must obey, but He is certainly exempt from the rules we must obey, and He may certainly change the rules any time He wants. He truly changed the rules in the most dramatic of ways by dying on the cross for our sake.
You’re making my argument for me.
If God commands slavery and genocide, it is not because God has suddenly become evil. It is because God has ordered the conditions under which good must triumph over evil. The monotheism of the Jews prepared the way for Jesus and Christianity. Had the Jews perished by genocide or permanent enslavement, there may not have been a house of David, nor a Jesus to be born in the line of David. Neither would there have been prophets to prepare for his coming, nor disciples to carry on the work of evangelizing the world.
It’s meaningless to discuss God as good or evil if you define God as good. Then saying God is good becomes the meaningless tautology “God is God”. Do you sings songs about how very God God is? No! To claim he is good is to compare him up to an external measure.
You know, ironically Russell might be talking about his own hostility and his own prejudice. After all, it can never be said that Russell was open-minded about the prospect of religion having a rational basis. His essay “Why I Am Not a Christian” is the most narrow-minded and hostile piece of literature ever written against Christianity.
That’s my signature; it shows up after everything I post and can be changed through the forum Control Panel. (In other words it’s not somethings I posted in reference to this topic.) If you want to chat about it you can message me.

You’ve omitted the most important part of my post. On what basis do you condemn atrocities committed by other religions in the name of God?
 
I recently listened to a debate between a Protestant minister named Rev. Slick and a well known atheist, Dan Barker. The debate was titled “Can a person be good without God”. As the debate began Mr. Barker quickly attempted to establish a definition for what good means in order to provide his arguments about how a person can be good without God. He was arguing in the affirmative, concerning the topic. His definition of good boiled down to something similar to this; “good is behaviors and actions which do the least harm.” Arguing the negative, Rev. Slick did not accept this definition, repeatedly demanding Mr. Barker to provide proof for the acceptance of this definition.

In a later segment of the debate Mr. Barker prompted Rev. Slick to provide his own definition of good. At this point is when Rev. Slick kind of fell apart, especially when he could not adequately define what the soul is. Anyway, Slick’s answer was that the good is, to act in accordance with the will of God.

At the same time I also began listening to a series by Catholic apologist Raymond De Souza, entitled “Good and Evil: Who Decides?”. In the first episode De Souza defines “good” something like this: “something that is good is something that fulfills its purpose”. An example he gives is of a pen. A pen that is made of gold and well crafted is not necessarily a good pen, it is a beautiful pen, but the pen that writes well and clearly is a good pen because it fulfills the purpose of what a pen should do.
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=7080

All of this promted me to investigate this same question. I start this journey with Aristotle’s “Nicomachean Ethics”, and so far it is providing a much fuller understanding, but I wanted to ask everyone here what their thoughts on the question are. Surely, it has been discussed many times over in debates on ethics and morality, but it is such and important question worth revisiting in and of itself.

Some initial questions:
Is good only a quality of something?
How does being good and doing good differ?
Is good only meaningful if there is a non-good or what people would call evil?
Is good simply, that which is desirable?
I think another good (well, you know what I mean) place to start is to explore the definition of the term “evil”. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a good, er, beneficial article on it here:
newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
 
Locke

This is a ridiculous mischaracterization of what I said.

No, it isn’t.

You’re making my argument for me.

No, I didn’t.
*
It’s **meaningless *to discuss God as good or evil if you define God as good. Then saying God is good becomes the meaningless tautology “God is God”. Do you sings songs about how very God God is? No! To claim he is good is to compare him up to an external measure.

What you have just said is a meaningless statement.

*You’ve omitted the most important part of my post. On what basis do you condemn atrocities committed by other religions in the name of God? *

On the basis that they do not come from God.
 
Some initial questions:
?
If you can stomach the following, this should help you understand.

If good is to have any objective meaning at all, it must first be an expression of a nature, an existing thing. If things are to be judged according to that nature, then it must have some kind relationship with the being that is judged. If a thing is “truly” good, then a thing is good in relationship to that which is the ultimate cause of a thing being good. It is true because of the ultimate root nature of truth, as in that which makes a thing true. By the word “cause”, in context of existence, I mean that an action takes on a significant objective meaning because the action exists within a “reality” that is as such that the action in question is necessarily defined according to that meaning. For example, you moved your arm because you willed it so, but it is only true that you moved your arm because you happen to exist in a reality that is as such that you were able to move it. The truth of your movement is defined by the nature of that reality. Thus we must consider a different level of causation in the sense that things are true not simply because of a particular things function, but also because of the kind of reality in which it exists.

Thus in trying to understand the nature of good, we must understand the nature of why it is truly and objectively good, and in order to do that we must understand that truth is truth ultimately because it reflects the nature of that which is real, since in nothing there is no objective truth. Thus that which is necessarily true is true either because it reflects the nature of ultimate reality, or because it is “ultimate reality” and is thus ultimately a “being”. We must also acknowledge that a thing is true because of that which is the root of reality; that which is as such that there is a truth to speak of. Thus in order to know good we must first admit that a thing is good because of the nature of that which is the root of all truth and is the ultimate truth. If good is just an expression of a being among other beings, then it is merely an opinion among other opinions; it is not the cause of why it is true that a thing is good. In order to know that we must go to the root of all truth, since it is the root cause that gives meaning to the effect.

We now know that if a thing is truly good, it is because it reflects or conforms to the nature of that which is ultimate reality or truth. Therefore that which is ultimately real must possess within itself the nature of good to a perfect degree; since to be perfectly good is to conform to the nature of ultimate reality. Objective moral truth is always truth regardless of whether one agrees or not. This is what one means by objective moral values. If there is such a thing as objective goodness, then it is eternal, since that which is necessarily true is always true. For example 2 + 2 must always equals four if we are to consider it an objective truth and not something we made up in our heads.

Good is, by itself, nothing. Good is an expression of a things nature, in this case, ultimate reality. The root of good is Love, and to Love is to share the good of ones being and unity. The Nature of love is itself a personal relationship (the Trinity). Thus we find that beings come into existence because of an act of perfect love. To be perfect is to love perfectly. To love is to share the fulfilment or good of ones nature and existence. Ultimate reality is an eternal timeless act of love, and it is this act that we call good. The fulfilment of something reflects that which is most positive and unified. Therefore if my nature is to have joy, I would not be fulfilled if I was depressed; because depression evidently does not full-fill the nature of a person; thus we seek things that give us joy. Thus anything that wilfully undermines the proper function of a things nature without just cause (a just cause being a greater good), is potentially evil.

Evil is not a thing or nature but rather it is a impediment to the purpose of a things nature. When we behave in a selfish manner we understand it as selfish because the action evidently does not share the good of ultimate reality, which is unity, sharing, and joy. Since ultimate reality is the root of all existence and goodness, we cannot be ultimately fulfilled unless we conform perfectly to the nature and will of ultimate reality. We can know the good of some-things by ourselves through our experience of being a person, since we know when something fulfils us and when something does not. But in order to have knowledge of how to conform perfectly and infallibly to the nature of love we must have revelation, since context can make a thing evil even though by itself it is good. For example, sex is good and fulfilling but only in the context of a life long marriage between two persons. But you might not know that by yourself since you did not create your nature, and you do not necessarily no the context in which it exists. Thus we cannot know all good by testing what gives us pleasure, since pleasure doesn’t necessarily fulfil the ultimate purpose of loving people. When we share our personal property, natures, and talents, we are sharing the good of Gods nature, since in reality it all belongs to God and God gave it to us in-order to share and create communities of love with it. Those who do not do this will ultimately and naturally be barred from the eternal good of Gods nature for which we were created. They will lose everything except the act of being, since you cannot possibly partake in perfect happiness or love if you wilfully oppose it. This lack of eternal good (or lack of GOD), is what we call hell.

Thus good is not an arbitrary thing. Good definitely has a distinct meaning. Good is love. God is love.
 
The “should” or “ought” exists only when there is a standard by which to declare that something is supposed to be a certain way. You say the standard is shared values and goals. We could say this does define the purpose of actions and behaviors, but you are still left with what creates those values and goals; what sets the standard for how a thing (in this case man) is supposed to be.
People in a social context do.

I’m not saying that one individual person thinks up values and goals – rather, I’m saying that people as a whole, over thousands of years of living in societies that have the common goals of order, relative peace, and prosperity, have developed similar values.

Those values are the standard by which “good” and “bad” can be – and are – judged. There are no supernatural beings necessary for determining what “the good” is.
 
Going with this line of reasoning one could just say then that God’s will is what is good and what one ought to do.
You could say that – but on what grounds do you call it “good”? If you’re just creating a tautology (“Good is what god’s will is, and god’s will is what good is”), then you haven’t said anything and you have no reason for actually calling god’s will good.
You have preconceived of a definition for good as being “not genocide, not murder, and not slavery” …] I think reason can tell us why genocide, murder, and slavery are not good and maybe lead us closer to what is the good.
You say here that genocide, murder, and slavery are “not good,” and yet you define good as “the will of god,” and you freely admit that god has commanded murder, genocide in the Bible and supported slavery in no uncertain terms.

Those claims cannot all be simultaneously true.

Either you think that murder, genocide, and slavery can be good things in some contexts, or you think that your god’s will is not always good, or you think that the Bible is falsely reporting the will of your god. Which is it?
 
People in a social context do.

I’m not saying that one individual person thinks up values and goals – rather, I’m saying that people as a whole, over thousands of years of living in societies that have the common goals of order, relative peace, and prosperity, have developed similar values.

Those values are the standard by which “good” and “bad” can be – and are – judged. There are no supernatural beings necessary for determining what “the good” is.
People in social contexts have decided that human sacrifice is good.
Either you think that murder, genocide, and slavery can be good things in some contexts, or you think that your god’s will is not always good, or you think that the Bible is falsely reporting the will of your god. Which is it?
To be Catholic I must believe that God is love. I don’t need to believe He’s commanded atrocities. The Church defines His nature and will and I haven’t heard her state that God wills genocide, slavery, or torture. Love is the basis of Catholic morality. And as Catholics we don’t subscribe to the doctrine of sola scriptura. Church teachings on Gods will and the gospel involve her continuous tradition together with her understanding of scripture.
 
If you can stomach the following, this should help you understand.

If good is to have any objective meaning at all, it must first be an expression of a nature, an existing thing…

…Thus good is not an arbitrary thing. Good definitely has a distinct meaning. Good is love. God is love.
I would have to agree with just about all you have said here and I think one can come to this understanding through reason, not simply starting at the point of God. This is a great explanation of what good is and in fact seems to draw the ideas of Aristotle, when he says the good being the ultimate end of all purposes, together with the nature of God. Like I said, we can come to the conclusion through reason alone that the good is objectively set in ultimate truth and reality, but we cannot know what this ultimate reality is, or points to, without revelation. When God tells Moses “I AM WHO AM”, this is when we know that God is the ultimate truth and the only reality from which all things are made and given their purpose.

We’ve been tangentially arguing morality, but I’m curious to know what the atheist who are in this discussion think about this understanding of the good. If it bothers you to make the leap towards the God who says “I am”, that’s fine, but does it make sense to see how the “good” can only be what is objectively rooted in the ultimate end of all purpose, or the authorship of all things?
 
You could say that – but on what grounds do you call it “good”? If you’re just creating a tautology (“Good is what god’s will is, and god’s will is what good is”), then you haven’t said anything and you have no reason for actually calling god’s will good.
Are you saying this is a tautology because we haven’t defined what either God’s will is or what the good is, and I’m using one to define the other?

If it makes a difference I’m also not saying that God’s will is the definition of good but rather, God’s will is what dictates morality. Morality and good are not the same thing. I think like I said before morality is in the service of what is good. Morality being the way we are supposed to or should act and behave is always towards the end of what is good. Good is the goal, morality is the path.

I guess your question then would be, what is God’s will, and how do we know it is directing us towards what is good?

Am I right in thinking this would be a logical question of yours if you accept my understanding of morality in relation to the good?
 
People in social contexts have decided that human sacrifice is good.
Sure they have, and such practices now strike us and our values-- living, as we do, in a society that has generated a solid concept of human rights and individual worth that we have been participating in and reinforcing for hundreds of years – as monstrous.

Similarly, the Israelites practiced slavery, sanctioned by god in the Bible, complete with rules on passing people down to your descendents as property, rules for beating slaves, and loopholes for tricking indentured servants into becoming your slaves and property forever. Such practices strike us and our values today as monstrous.
To be Catholic I must believe that God is love. I don’t need to believe He’s commanded atrocities.
Ok. So you believe that the numerous Old Testament passages in which god explicitly commands his chosen people to kill in his name are falsely reporting the will of god? The rules on slavery, then, are also instances of the Bible falsely reporting the will of god?

If this is what you’re saying, it sounds like you’re picking and choosing according to your own – modern day, post-enlightenment – values of right and wrong.

Also, if your Bible can misrepresent the will of god in such a shocking way, how trustworthy is it as a document, then?
 
I guess your question then would be, what is God’s will, and how do we know it is directing us towards what is good?
Well, actually, my questions are: 1) How do you know what god’s will is? and 2) How do you know that god’s will is good?

I mean, we have people telling us a lot of conflicting things about (1), you know. Some Christians think god wants them to murder abortion doctors. Some think that he wants to outlaw gay marriage. Others say the exact opposite.

And (2) is even harder. For you to be able to say that god’s will is “good,” you would need a standard of good that is separate from god’s will – so as to avoid a tautology. Where does this standard come from, if not from god?
 
If this is what you’re saying, it sounds like you’re picking and choosing according to your own – modern day, post-enlightenment – values of right and wrong.
No, I’m picking and choosing based on the standard the Church has received, and that standard is love for God and neighbor. Love for ones enemy was a radical concept-still is-but especially in a world where conquering him was firmly positioned as one of the highest values one could have. This standard of love has shaped western morality to such a degree that it is mainly responsible for gradually bending our society’s norms to what they are today, in spite of our preference for believing we thought it all up ourselves. The Church is one of the first places in history where altruism was made an authentic human value. And yet we still have a long way to go.
Also, if your Bible can misrepresent the will of god in such a shocking way, how trustworthy is it as a document, then?
The bible uses a great deal of literary devices and is often difficult to understand, even on non-spiritual matters; sometimes it has apparent contradictions as well. People differ constantly on its meaning. This is why the Church is necessary in determining God’s will.
 
AntiTheist

*And (2) is even harder. For you to be able to say that god’s will is “good,” you would need a standard of good that is separate from god’s will – so as to avoid a tautology. Where does this standard come from, if not from god? *

In mathematics there are things called axioms … self evident truths. We are not required to prove them. The same applies to theology. It is self-evident that God’s will is good by God’s own standard, not ours. Unless you can prove that it is not, or that His will is evil. Want to try? 😃

In the account of Creation in Genesis, at the end of each day, God saw that everything was good. So why wouldn’t God be good if He was so set on creating good?

By the way, I notice you deliberately lower case the name of the particular god you don’t believe in. That is grammatically incorrect, in case you didn’t know it. If you were writing a paper for a college course, you would lose points for deliberately lower casing the names of Zeus, Apollo, Athena, Poseidon, Ares, etc. Even Bertrand Russell, in “Why I Am Not a Christian,” upper cases the name of the particular God he didn’t believe in.
 
People in a social context do.

I’m not saying that one individual person thinks up values and goals – rather, I’m saying that people as a whole, over thousands of years of living in societies that have the common goals of order, relative peace, and prosperity, have developed similar values.

Those values are the standard by which “good” and “bad” can be – and are – judged. There are no supernatural beings necessary for determining what “the good” is.
Are you then saying that the common goals of relative peace, prosperity, and order are good because people, as whole societies in a values sort of evolutionary process, agreed they were, or that those things are inherently good in themselves and adopted by people’s because they are thought of as good.

One way says that those things are good because mankind has determined them to be what he wants, which asks the question, why does he want things that way? To lesson pain? To make life easier? The other way says those things (peace, order, etc.) are inherently good, which would beg the question, why are they inherently good? What about them makes them good? That they direct the society to a certain end? If so why is this end good? It would seem these things are in the service of some greater thing that we want to say is the ultimate good.

I almost think the good has to end in a meaningful tautology of sorts, because like Aristotle puts it, the good is the end of all purpose. If there is one Idea of good and it is this end, it is something almost indefinable without referring to something else. I don’t think the people here who are saying that “God is good and good is God”, are saying, yes the Christian God I think I know is The good God, but rather we are trying to say that whatever God is, He has to be what good is, they are one in the same thing, but that we know that God is not just the good, the good then is just a part of His nature.

We don’t really know perfectly what God is, but we can deduce from reason that he must be or have certain qualities. God is what we call the highest of all things, that which everything finds its beginning and end in. So by definition if the good is the ultimate end of purpose, it must also be God.
 
I almost think the good has to end in a meaningful tautology of sorts, because like Aristotle puts it, the good is the end of all purpose. If there is one Idea of good and it is this end, it is something almost indefinable without referring to something else.
In the parable of the good Samaritan, the Levite (from the tribe of Moses) and the priest both walk on by. There’s some logic in not wanting to get involved, but we would say they are inhuman. The Samaritan (from a tribe generally despised by the audience) is the only one with compassion.

Jesus chooses the characters to deliberately shock His audience. Whatever our beliefs, whatever the detail of the law says, all that really matters is whether we listen to the root of goodness inside all of us.

As Christians we believe it was planted in us by God and is our connection to God. Atheists don’t believe in gods and so will have a different explanation. But really all of us run out of words, which is why Jesus had to tell a story instead of giving a definition.

So since for Christians this indefinable root of good provides our relationship with God, God must be good, but I don’t think you should leap from there to saying it proves God exists. The danger of over-thinking it is you may subvert the hidden root with logic, and could end up like the Levite or the priest. 🙂
 
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