What is Gospel of John and the Pauline Epistles doing in the biblical canon of the Catholics?

[Pleroma]

Catholics want to evangelize every nook and corner of the world but I don’t see how they can do this when their own biblical canon refute their core tenets and beliefs. Do you think we are fools to blindly accept everything what the Catholic Church says without investigating further?

Gospel of John says Devil has a Father and he is none other than the God of the Jews - April Deconick

The pastoral epistles like Timothy 2 are forged and should be removed from the biblical canon. - SE Porter.

If the church (and the scholars within it) is no longer willing to accept the Pastoral Epistles as written by Paul, perhaps it should, rather than creating strained theological justifications for their continued canonical presence, eliminate them as forgeries that once deceived the church but will do so no more. So it was then. So it perhaps should be today.

-SE Porter

The rest of the Pauline Epistles are not orthodox either. The Gnostic Paul by Elaine Pagels.

That’s why I am a pagan Christian.

1. We reject the resurrection of flesh.
2. We reject the atonement of the sins.
3. We promote docetism.
4. We reject the Law because Law is written in our hearts and we cannot sin by nature.
5. We reject that Christ was sent by the God of the Jews.
6. We reject that Christ died for our sins.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think you have it around the other way. Why do you have such a gospel which declares quite emphatically the word became flesh. How demeaning for the word to take on this terrible lesser substance. Also why do you accept the epistles of Paul who clearly believes in the God of the Old testament. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. The jews were God’s people and he accomplished salvation through that one Jew, Jesus, who had been leading up to the salvation of the world.

Romans 11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”** 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Also the quotation of three scholars hardly represents all scholarship on the issue of Paul. Simply because one scholar says something doesn’t mean it is true. There are many different and contradicting views on the bible by scholars whom are as fickle as possible whenever interpreting these texts. There are conservative scholars as well who place Paul firmly within the understanding of the Judaism of his time, like NT Wright who is just as respected if not more so than the people you listed.

I hope in starting this you won’t just appeal to authority.**

 

[meltzerboy]

Catholics want to evangelize every nook and corner of the world but I don’t see how they can do this when their own biblical canon refute their core tenets and beliefs. Do you think we are fools to blindly accept everything what the Catholic Church says without investigating further?

Gospel of John says Devil has a Father and he is none other than the God of the Jews - April Deconick

The pastoral epistles like Timothy 2 are forged and should be removed from the biblical canon. - SE Porter.

The rest of the Pauline Epistles are not orthodox either. The Gnostic Paul by Elaine Pagels.

That’s why I am a pagan Christian.

1. We reject the resurrection of flesh.
2. We reject the atonement of the sins.
3. We promote docetism.
4. We reject the Law because Law is written in our hearts and we cannot sin by nature.
5. We reject that Christ was sent by the God of the Jews.
6. We reject that Christ died for our sins.

Who was Jesus according to docetism and what was Jesus’ mission or purpose?

 

[Pleroma]

Who was Jesus according to docetism and what was Jesus’ mission or purpose?

This is an excellent read as to where do I stand on the role of Jesus.

The Role of Jesus in Valentinianism

We divide the human Jesus from the divine Savior. The Savior descended upon the human Jesus in the form of a dove at the time of his baptism and flew out of his body at the time of his crucifixion. The Savior then resurrected the human body of Jesus which was a phantasm and imparted the Gnosis of the Father to the whole world.

We were never sinners from the beginning, we are the children of the Father of Truth and hence its foolish to think that Christ died at the cross for our sins, he died and resurrected only to impart the Gnosis of the Father to all of us. This was his only mission or purpose.

“Those who think they will die first and then rise are in error if they do not receive the resurrection while they live when they die they receive nothing”.

• Gospel of Philip

We need to resurrect here and now and our redemption is different from the rest of the orthodox Christians.

 

[po18guy]

Who died and left you the sole arbiter of truth?

Seriously.

 

[Pleroma]

I think you have it around the other way. Why do you have such a gospel which declares quite emphatically the word became flesh. How demeaning for the word to take on this terrible lesser substance. Also why do you accept the epistles of Paul who clearly believes in the God of the Old testament. The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. The jews were God’s people and he accomplished salvation through that one Jew, Jesus, who had been leading up to the salvation of the world.

Saint Paul had to preach to both to the psychics as well as to the pneumatics. He had two redemption schemes, one for the Jews and other for the Gentiles, Jews are redeemed by following the works of the Law (Torah) where as the Gentiles are apart from the works of the Law because the original Law is written in their hearts and they cannot sin by their very nature. I have no bias towards the Jews or towards the Gentiles, I am with Saint Paul who thought that Israel will be finally saved when the fullness of the Gentiles finally comes in.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

The psychics too will receive redemption in the end and they will enter the Kenoma based on their obedience to the Law and wait there with the human Jesus and the Demiurge to finally enter the Pleroma.

 

[meltzerboy]

This is an excellent read as to where do I stand on the role of Jesus.

The Role of Jesus in Valentinianism

We divide the human Jesus from the divine Savior. The Savior descended upon the human Jesus in the form of a dove at the time of his baptism and flew out of his body at the time of his crucifixion. The Savior then resurrected the human body of Jesus which was a phantasm and imparted the Gnosis of the Father to the whole world.

We were never sinners from the beginning, we are the children of the Father of Truth and hence its foolish to think that Christ died at the cross for our sins, he died and resurrected only to impart the Gnosis of the Father to all of us. This was his only mission or purpose.

“Those who think they will die first and then rise are in error if they do not receive the resurrection while they live when they die they receive nothing”.

• Gospel of Philip

We need to resurrect here a now and our redemption is different from the rest of the orthodox Christians.

Thank you for this interesting explanation. You don’t therefore believe that the Torah Law already contains the Gnosis of G-d the Father provided it is interpreted correctly through Talmud and Kabbalah?

 

[ericc]

Catholics want to evangelize every nook and corner of the world but I don’t see how they can do this when their own biblical canon refute their core tenets and beliefs. Do you think we are fools to blindly accept everything what the Catholic Church says without investigating further?

Gospel of John says Devil has a Father and he is none other than the God of the Jews - April Deconick

The pastoral epistles like Timothy 2 are forged and should be removed from the biblical canon. - SE Porter.

The rest of the Pauline Epistles are not orthodox either. The Gnostic Paul by Elaine Pagels.

That’s why I am a pagan Christian.

1. We reject the resurrection of flesh.
2. We reject the atonement of the sins.
3. We promote docetism.
4. We reject the Law because Law is written in our hearts and we cannot sin by nature.
5. We reject that Christ was sent by the God of the Jews.
6. We reject that Christ died for our sins.

Since you reject most of what Christians believe, what Gospel(s) do you believe in? What are the main tenets of your faith? Why do you think what you believe is the truth?

On item 4, who wrote the Law in your hearts? What is the Law? If you can not sin by nature, do you sin? Do you sin un-naturally? What is sin by your definition? Who told you what is a sin?

BTW, who is accusing you of being a fool in blindly accepting everything what the Catholic Church says? Since you are not a Catholic, what it it to you what the Catholic Church says? Why would you blindly accept stuff what the Catholic Church says? Why would you listen in the first place since we are offering nothing that you are interested in.

To answer your question, Gospel of John and Pauline Epistles are in the Catholic Bible because the Catholic Church says so. Do you have a problem with that? Or are gnostics trying to claim ownership over that?

 

[Pleroma]

Thank you for this interesting explanation. You don’t therefore believe that the Torah Law already contains the Gnosis of G-d the Father provided it is interpreted correctly through Talmud and Kabbalah?

If you want to go in that direction then I would suggest you to read Pistis Sophia and study the path of Christian Kabbalah or the Sophian Tradition. The Unbegotten Father did revealed his gnosis through the mouths of the Jewish prophets prior to the arrival of the Savior. However I am very sensitive to traditional doctrines and my tradition is entirely Pauline and not Sophian or Sethian or any other.

 

[Pleroma]

Since you reject most of what Christians believe, what Gospel(s) do you believe in?

We revere the Pauline Epistles, Gospel of Philip and Gospel of Truth very much but overall we believe in all the books of the Old Testament as well as the New Testament including the synoptic Gospels.

What are the main tenets of your faith?

Faith is the very beginning because without faith no one shall receive anything. We believe that Christ was sent not by the maker of this world but by Abraxas, the supreme Aeon, our Holy Father who resides in the Pleroma.

Our whole faith is based on Christology and on Colossians 2:9 and our philosophical setting is based on the localization of the Pleroma. For the Catholics pleroma is an abstract idea but for us it is the adobe of the Aeons.

On the other hand with Valentinus and the Valentinians the doctrine of the pleroma was the very key-stone of their system; and, since at first in sight it is somewhat difficult to connect their use of the term with St Paul’s, a few words on this subject may not be out of place.

Read J.B Lightfoot’s St.Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon, on the meaning of Pleroma.

So our main tenet is to return to the fullness of the Pleroma.

Why do you think what you believe is the truth?

We don’t believe, we know this is the truth because of the revelation that we have received from our Holy Father.

On item 4, who wrote the Law in your hearts?

Our Holy Father wrote it.

What is the Law?

That Christ and I are one.

If you can not sin by nature, do you sin? Do you sin un-naturally? What is sin by your definition? Who told you what is a sin?

Sin is ignorance of the Father by my definition, all the evil in this world is because of this, ignorance of the Father. The pride of life, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes are all because of the ignorance of the Father.

If you want to have acquaintance with the Father then you have to become one with him and at the point ignorance ceases to exist and so does sin ceases to exist because ignorance of the Father is the root cause for all our sins.

BTW, who is accusing you of being a fool in blindly accepting everything what the Catholic Church says? Since you are not a Catholic, what it it to you what the Catholic Church says? Why would you blindly accept stuff what the Catholic Church says? Why would you listen in the first place since we are offering nothing that you are interested in.

It is important to me as to what you Catholics preach because I don’t want a false message of the Messiah to be propagated around the world.

To answer your question, Gospel of John and Pauline Epistles are in the Catholic Bible because the Catholic Church says so. Do you have a problem with that? Or are gnostics trying to claim ownership over that?

Yes I do have a problem and no Pauline Epistles are no ones intellectual property and it belongs to all the Gentiles and the Jews and no one can claim its ownership. The problem for me is that Catholics are spreading the wrong message of Christ and that is of a concern to me.