What Is Heaven?

[Pax_et_Caritas]

your're mssing the point of dying and proceeding to the hereafter.. the memories we acquire here are meant to be re-lived here, and thats all.. we dont bring them along as carry-on luggage because we are no longer human..

I think the people have been a little to hard on you here. You simply gave some of your thoughts. I doon’t think you were intentionally disagreeing with the Church.

That being said, our memory is one of the faculties of our soul (intellect, memory and will), and as such, will remain with us in heaven. Also, we remain human in heaven - just as human as we are here. At first we will be without our bodies, but even in that state, we remain human persons. After the resurrection our bodies will be rejoined to our souls for eternity.

if you want the brutal truth, ascending to heaven and losing your earthly ties is similar to brainwashing… you are purged of all earthly considerations, aspects, machinations, and cognitive skills… you are no longer human, you have no human traits-- you have no appearance, no image, no occupation of space… you are a spirit… you exist only as a single thought concept… the thought being a focus on god’s presence and his infinite benevolence in summoning you to sit by his side, which is also a misnomer, but it makes it easier to follow thr concept…

Did you make that up? It’s certainly not what the Church teaches. Be careful here, because you don’t want to become so hardned in your own imaginings that you end by obstinately rejecting what the Church teaches.

It would be best to do some reading on what the Church teaches about heaven. Here’s a link to the Summa of St. Thomas. If you scroll down a little, you should be able to find some interesting information in the section under “Resurrection”.

newadvent.org/summa/5.htm

 

[remoat]

Remoat - I can see by your response, you have not really read (or if you did, did not understood) what I posted. That being the case, I will simply refer you to the** “Catechism of the Catholic Church” **which is available at any good Catholic Book store. It has a wealth of information if you care to avail yourself. If you do not, still know that you will remain in my prayers and in the prayers of the Church Triumphant, Church Militant and Church Suffering. Oh yes, and God is still spelled with a capitol G.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

i read what i read and that is all that i read, im popeye the sailor man, toot-toot! you type your god’s name your way, and i’ll type my gods’ name my way, kapisce?

 

[dranzal]

Did you read the posts detailing the Church’s teachings on heaven?

Why do you think we cease to be human?

I want to help you clear up your misunderstanding because you can really hurt someone with those notions.

My little one (see photo/link below) has not ceased to be human. If anything, he is more alive and aware than we are. His memories are intact. No where in the bible or in Sacred Tradition are we taught that we cease to be human and lose all that made us who we are. We are to be made new.

Because of my faith in the Scriptures and Tradition, I have Hope. I KNOW (unless I do something really dumb like gravely sin) I will see my Gabriel again.

You could really hurt someone telling them these incorrect things. Please read the Church teachings on the subject. We have provided some for you.

 

[Walking_Home]

yes and no… beyond those named in the bible, i doubt anyone would have any clout with god as to our needs and wants… traditionally, we pray to god, his son and the virgin mary… the church has sanctioned saints as ostensible intermediaries: st. francis; st. jude; st. anthony; st. michael, etc… they have been deemed as “patron saints” and “protectors” for those with special needs… perhaps they carry extra weight in accepting special requests to “petition” god for special favors…

i am not schooled in theology or trained in dealing with peoples’ relationships with souls in the hereafter… im just a guy venting his thoughts in a public forum… i am not proposing i have the answers to any of these questions, im just asking them and hoping someone will reply with a better explanation than mine…

**as to the souls of our friends and family, i propose they are unaware of us… **if heaven is a reward for living our lives according to god’s word, what reward is it ascend to heaven and watch the misery of those left behind? would souls continue to be happy, if it is in their capacity, to see us in pain from accidents, disease, discrimination, rejection? why would that be a rewarding aspect of heaven? further, watching day-to-day events unfold down here distractrs souls from their prime objective: praising god for who he is and worshipping him for inviting us to join him in heaven… anything else is excess baggage… there is no need for earth-memories… you’re standing next to the almighty, what else is there? would you rather watch your son/daughter re-enact their high school prom? would you rather see the grandson you left behind earn a perfect score on his SATs? if god is all there is and all there could ever be, then doesn’t that include all the feelings and wonders you could imagine? those you left behind are continuing to live their temporal lives without you, and they are mostly doing quite well–god set it up that way… your mssion in the hereafter is to “enjoy” your heavenly graces; you earned them, relax and let it happen…

.

---

The witnesses who have preceded us ---- includes also any family member who may now reside in heaven. For them to constantly care for those who they have left behind ---- means God has provided a way for them to still know about us. With our human capacity --we my not know the details of how those in heaven live in the joy of the glory of God – while at the same time are aware of us who still walk the earth — but God does.

Catechism of the Catholic Church.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c2a3.htm

A cloud of witnesses

2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. **When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things."42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world. **

 

[remoat]

QUOTE: What about the fact that there is a Purgatory? The saints intercede for us and have to remember what their lives were like in order to do so. What is the point of creating us if we die only to be totally reborn in Heaven without any memory? Why not just create us in Heaven and skip the eartly phase?

im thinking you prefer to ask questions i have discussed already, why, i cant imagine.. like the child that repeatedly asks his mom "why?" after every explanation..

i really dont know why; im not an expert, a theologian or a religious writer.. i have no explanation for the way i feel, i justr believe these things.. if i had it all figured out, someone would have figured it out before me, and the answers would be known, anyway.. if i take more time to deal with the issue, maybe ill have better answers later.. right now, im doing all i can to frame the questions..

 

[remoat]

Did you read the posts detailing the Church’s teachings on heaven?

Why do you think we cease to be human?

I want to help you clear up your misunderstanding because you can really hurt someone with those notions.

My little one (see photo/link below) has not ceased to be human. If anything, he is more alive and aware than we are. His memories are intact. No where in the bible or in Sacred Tradition are we taught that we cease to be human and lose all that made us who we are. We are to be made new.

Because of my faith in the Scriptures and Tradition, I have Hope. I KNOW (unless I do something really dumb like gravely sin) I will see my Gabriel again.

You could really hurt someone telling them these incorrect things. Please read the Church teachings on the subject. We have provided some for you.

i know this is hard for everyone to accept, but in the hereafter, we are not human.. humans populate this planet-- they live and work, travel, learn and die-- thats what makes them/us human.. in the hereafter, we have surrendered our humanity to spend eternity (in heaven or hell) as a unique entity: a disembodied spirit..

as i have said many times before, i am not claiming that these opinions are factual, they're just my opinions.. there is no basis fo my assertions, they are opinions, and nothing more.. but, there is no need for anyone to post and discuss only what is proven.. we all have ideas and we all have the right to express them.. this is not about right or wrong; good or bad, easy or hard to believe; this about registering as a member and posting whatever you want, as long as the forum's terms are saitisfied..beyond that, the membership says what they think, period..

you are taking this whole thing WAY too seriously..if you are unable to read these posts without being deeply impressed and moved to the point of changing your beliefs, you need more help than is available here.. the only danger of these forums is for those who read too long without taking a break.. there is no danger here unless you want there to be.. i pose no more danger to readers of these posts than an ant to a stemroller.. and if you feel that my posts are a threat to anyone's beliefs, how secure were they in the first place? any one with a well-grounded foundation faith in anything is not threateened by someone else's comments.. if they were, either their faith was weak to begin with, or the faith was wrongly placed in something which was not worth their efforts..

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Remoat - you remain in my prayers
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[dranzal]

I’m sorry.

I was under the impression you actually and genuinely wanted to discuss what has been revealed to us through Scripture and Tradition about the nature of Heaven.

You are right. I take the topic of Heaven very seriously. So does the Church. I am not inclined in the least to sit around playing guessing games when the Church has clearly taught quite a bit on the topic.

I agree that those that frequent this forum would have little interest in this baseless speculation.

When I said you could hurt people, I was referring to those you might meet in real life and share these thoughts with. I was presuming too much.

You are right that you can say just about anything. Enjoy yourself.

 

[Viki63]

When Christ appeared in his glorified body, He had his scars and the wound in his side. He kept them as badges of his suffering. We will still be ourselves, with our memories intact, and each of us will have his own perspective of God to offer the others, as each of us loves him a little differently,

 

[igator99]

No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mouth proclaimed what heaven will be like. But I imagine it will be far more and better and greater than anything any creature could ever dream or hope for. And I imagine this not because of the benefits and glories which the blessed enjoy in heaven, but because of the Beatific Vision. The Lord, in his Love and Mercy, lets the blessed share in his divine nature and see him as he sees himself. Who can fathom such an awesome beatitude!

Do we get any clues how heaven will be? I would like to see my mom and dad in heaven.

 

[remoat]

QUOTE: Did you make that up? It’s certainly not what the Church teaches. Be careful here, because you don’t want to become so hardned in your own imaginings that you end by obstinately rejecting what the Church teaches.

okay, i'll bite.. where am i i violating church teaching? which article of faith is at stake here?

 

[remoat]

just a few notes to clear up some ??? in other members’ minds about remoat…

remoat has registered in this forum to discuss religious topics, especiaslly traditional catholic doctrine prior to the second vatrican council…

with all due respect to everyone who has posted here and hoping to keep the potential for offending anyone to a minimum, this is the way i am:

i am interested in what you have to say;
i am interested in opinions that relate to the original post;
i am being respectful to everyone’s post in reply, but

i am not interested in advice;
i am not interested in suggestions…
you certainly have the privilege of citing references to other sources in reply, and if others find them worth researching, that’s o.k. with me, but, i am not interested in reading further on the subject of my post or any topic members wish to suggest in other locations… i didn’t come here for inspiration or visionary breakthroughs… im here to post, read, and post some more… if i want counseling, there are people for that; if i want confession, i have a priest for that… i don’t login to this forum with the sign-of-the-cross, and i dont logout with an act of contrition… if that sounds a bit cruel, well, now you know, and you needn’t risk “tuning in” to my posts from now on…

i value everyone’s opinion, i value dissent and reading better discussion than mine; i dont value phrases that start out, “you should…”, or “you shouldn’t…”… actually, i can and i will, if the posts dont violate the “terms” of this forum…

and, to those generous enough to wish me well and offer prayers on my behalf, thank you…

 

[stringbeanduck]

I don’t think we have the authority to say what will be up in heaven. Goodness, is not enough what the Lord teaches us through sacred scripture and the church that heaven is a great and purely happy place that is guaranteed to bring those of us who do His will faithfully eternal happiness? Must we “invent” these speculations/fantasies because we can’t wait only lifetime to find out. You’re not going to get there and be like, “geeze God where’s the pool table. I thought you were going to make this a happy place.” No! it doesn’t work like that. Heaven isn’t bound to our earthly fantasies. It is a wonderful place that will be sufficient to make us happy.

 

[igator99]

I don’t think we have the authority to say what will be up in heaven. Goodness, is not enough what the Lord teaches us through sacred scripture and the church that heaven is a great and purely happy place that is guaranteed to bring those of us who do His will faithfully eternal happiness? Must we “invent” these speculations/fantasies because we can’t wait only lifetime to find out. You’re not going to get there and be like, “geeze God where’s the pool table. I thought you were going to make this a happy place.” No! it doesn’t work like that. Heaven isn’t bound to our earthly fantasies. It is a wonderful place that will be sufficient to make us happy.

I like the pool table comment. I just hope we get to see our dearly departed but then again, it will be heaven. I’m sure God will make us happy for all eternity. Now if I can just get there.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

QUOTE: Did you make that up? It’s certainly not what the Church teaches. Be careful here, because you don’t want to become so hardned in your own imaginings that you end by obstinately rejecting what the Church teaches.

okay, i'll bite.. where am i i violating church teaching? which article of faith is at stake here?

Probably the most serious would be when you said we cease to be human. By saying that a person ceases to be human when they arrive in heaven would mean that they would undergo a metaphysical change from one kind of being to another, which is not the case.

A metaphsysical change is necessary for a person to enter heaven, but the metaphysical change takes plase on earth prior to death. It takes place at baptism when we receive the indwelling life of God (sanctifying grace), and become, as the Bible says, “a new creation”, and a members of the body of Christ; however, this metaphysical change does not make us something other than human. We remain human, even as we become “partakers of the Divine nature”.

Some of your other thoughts seem to be associated with the above, and flow from it. I’m pretty sure if you look into it you will find that the Church teaches that we maintain our identity after death, which is something that your thoughts seem to differ with.

A few examples come to mind: If you remember, at the transfiguration, Mose and Elijah appeared to Jesus and they were recognized as such by the apostles. This would indicate that the person retains his identity after death.

Also, since the memory is actually a part of the soul, it makes sense that we would retain our memories after death This fits in with what is taugth in the Apocalypse. We are told that the souls of the martyrs are calling out to the Lord, asking how long it will be before he takes revenge on those on earth

Apoc 6:9-10: *“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” *

Thsi shows two things: 1) that they possess memory, and 2.) that they are aware what is taking lace on earth.

Here’s an article on heaven from an old Catholic Encyclopedia.

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

 

[Conservative]

Dear remoat -
I’ve scanned your post - and as a Cradle Catholic with belief in what I was taught - I’ve had some difficult emotional experiences regarding this after losing two parents in six months. While everyone said they’re not suffering anymore, it’s just the body, etc., I knew one thing - their souls were SOMEWHERE - which is what people just don’t get. Everyone thinks only in terms of bodily suffering.

We’re educated from childhood that Heaven is seeing the Beatific Vision (Face of God) for Eternity. Forget the ideas of wings, halos and clouds - we just don’t know. God is there - do you need to know more? Purgatory is a place where our souls - if destined for Heaven, are purged (sort of like a surgeon has to scrub up to their elbows before entering the Operating Room - even though hands were clean before walking in).
Hell is a place where a soul spends Eternity not seeing God.
We are told that at the End of the World bodies will rise (perhaps reunited with their soul) - so I can’t help but wonder where these bodies will go - a physical place?

We do know that at death the soul has left its body - and is somewhere - either preparing to enter Heaven, in Heaven or suffering. But in that case, I can’t believe that the soul doesn’t remember its earthly past since it will be expiating its earthly sins. True - a soul has left behind the unnecessary concerns - pets, diversions, whatever. They have become meaningless. Once it’s left the body, the soul must be aware of what was important - that it might have been blinded to while in its body on earth - more than our earthly bodies could know.

Do the souls remember those left behind? Of course, since we’re told to pray for the Souls in Purgatory who can’t help themselves - but CAN help us. I don’t know how - I just believe what I was taught. And I’m sure if we pray even for those who we don’t know - we will be remembered by them when they are able to intercede on our behalf when WE are in need.

As hard as it might for some, don’t worry about whether the souls remember where they’ve been. Be assured that, if in Purgatory, they must be aware when someone has prayed for them on earth. Just pray for their safe arrival in a Holy Destination and leave the rest to God.

 

[remoat]

QUOTE: Probably the most serious would be when you said we cease to be human.

o.k., what is your authority for this statement? is it a parish priest? is it an excerpt from a bishop's letter to his diocese? is it taken from a pope's encyclical? i vaule your opinion, there wouldn't be a forum without at least one who presents an opinion, and one who either concurs or dissents from it, but is this an original thought, or is it doctrinal? for me to retreat from what i have said here, i need an authoritative declaration, quoted in total or partial, which is verifiable, that my views are in error.. i believe that human souls are an inhuman expression of our existence in the hereafter: they have no memories of their past; they have no unique characteristics which distinguishes them from other souls-- you can't tell yourself from the "guy" next you;.. only god knows each soul as they were identified in our world, and that would only be important to determine whether or not nwe should gain admission into heaven.. i believe recall of our lives here after we depart from this life is gratuitous and "unecessary baggage" as we achieve our great rewards..we are brought to heaven to praise god for inviting us to join him, and we worship him because he is god.. our sprits/souls have no room for "carry-on" luggage, nor would we desire to use memories if we had them with us.. the presence of god fulfills all needs and all appetites.. being in god's presence "spoils" us for anything else we might desire, even if we had the consciousness to come up with it..

 

[dranzal]

Just in case you’re serious…

The following (for however many posts are required) I am taking from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott.

NIHIL OBSTAT: Jeremiah J. O’Sullivan, D.D

IMPRIMATUR: +Cornelius

pg. 490:
The dead will rise again with the same bodies as they had on earth (De fide).

The Fathers of the time of Origen teach unanimously that “This flesh will rise again and be judged” and that “we shall receive our reward in this flesh” (Ps.-Clement, 2 Cor. 9, 1-5). St. Justin attests: “We expect to have again our dead and the bodies interred in the earth, by maintaining that with God nothing is impossible” (Apol. 1, 18). The grounds of congruity adduced by the Fathers for the fact of the resurrection presuppose the identity of body before and after the resurrection. This identity is defended against Origen by Methodius, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Epiphanius (Haer. 64) and St. Jerome (Adv. Ioannem Hierosolymitanum).

pg 491:

According to the general teaching, the body will rise again in complete integrity, free from distortions, mal-formations and defects. St. Tomas teaches: “Man will rise again in the greatest possible natural perfection,” therefore in the state of mature age (Suppl. 81, 1). The integrity of the body after its resurrection also demands the organs of vegetative and sensitive life, including the differences between the sexes (as against the view of Origen: D 207). However, the vegetative functions will no longer take place. Mt. 22, 30: “They shall be as the angels of God in Heaven.”

The bodies of the just will be re-modelled and transfigured to the pattern of the risen Christ.

St. Paul teaches: “Who (Jesus Christ) will reform the body of our lowness, made like to the body of His glory, according to the operation whereby also He is able to subdue all things unto Himself” (Phil. 3, 21). “Its is sown in corruption: it shall rise in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour: it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness; it shall rise in power. It is sown a natural body; it shall rise a spiritual body” (I Cor. 15, 42-44).

Adopting the teaching of the Apostles, the Schoolmen distinguish four properties or gifts of the resurrection bodies of the just:

a: Incapability of suffering (impassibilititas), that is, inaccessibility to physical evils of all kinds, such as sorrow, sickness, death.

b: Subtility (subtilitas), that is, a spiritualised nature, which however is not to be conceived as a transformation of the body into a spiritual essence or as a refinement of the matter into an ethereal body (cf Luke 24, 39). The archetype of the spiritualised body is the risen body of Christ, which emerged from the sealed tomb and penetrated closed doors (John 20, 19. 26). The intrinsic reason of the spiritualisation of the body lies in the complete dominion of the body by the transfigured soul in so far as it is the essential form of the body.

c. Agility (agilitas), that is the capability of the body to obey the soul with the gratest ease and speed of movement. If forms a contrast to the heaviness of the earthly body…This agility was manifested by the risen Body of Christ, which was suddenly present in the midst of His Apostles, and which disappeared just as quickly (John 20, 19. 26; Luke 24, 31).

d. Clarity (claritas), that is, being free from everything deformed and being filled with beauty and radiance.

 

[Henning]

Jesus’ Father’s House…in heaven…much room there, see John 14:2

 

[dranzal]

continued.

pg 495:

Restoration of the World

The present world will be restored on the Last Day. (Sent. certa.)

The Prophet Isaias foretells a new heaven and a new earth: “For behold I create new heavens and a new earth” (65, 17; cf. 66, 22). He depicts the blessings of the new earth under the picture of world happiness (65, 17-25). Jesus speaks of the “regeneration,” that is, of the new formation of the world: “I say to you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit on the seat of His majesty, you shall also sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Mt. 19, 28).

St. Paul teaches that the whole of Creation came under the curse of sin and awaits redemption, and that it like mankind will be liberated from the bondage of the past and translated into the freedom of the glory of the children of God (Rom. 8, 18-25).

St. Peter tells of “a new Heaven and a new earth” concurrent with the destruction of the world “in which justice dwelleth” (2 Peter 3, 13). Again the words, “the restitution of all things” (Acts 3, 21) refer to the renewal of the world.

St. John gives a picturesque description of the new heaven and the new earth, whose centre is the New Jerusalem, which descends from Heaven, and which is the Tabernacle of God among men. He who sits on the Throne (God) says: “Behold, I make all things new” (Apoc 21, 1-8).

St. Augustine teaches that the properties of the future world will be just as suited to the immortal existence of the transfigured human body as were the properties of the corruptible existence to the mortal body. (De civ. Dei XX 16.)

St. Tomas infers the renewal of the world from the fact that the object of the world is to serve mankind. As the transfigured man no longer requires the service which the present world renders to him by the preservation of bodily life and by the promotion of the knowledge of God, it is not out of place to imagine that with the transfiguration of the human body the other bodies also will experience a transfiguration, corresponding to the state of the transigured body. The transfigured eye of the blessed shall see the majesty of God in its operations in the transfigured physical world, in the Body of Christ, in the bodies of the Blessed and also in the other corporeal things. Suppl. 91, 1. Cf. 74, 1. The scope and the manner and mode of the destruction of the world cannot be more closely described in the light of Revelation. Suppl. 91, 3.

remoat, these teachings of the evangelists, apostles, and church fathers overwhelmingly support the position that we retain our identities in the next life. We even get a spiffed up new body. We even get a spiffed up new earth to enjoy with our new body.

These are the teachings of the Church.