What Is Heaven?

  • Thread starter Thread starter remoat
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
the bible has been quoted in this forum to validate the impressions of members that our earthly forms will ascend to heaven; i suppose they mean that this will happen on judgment day, or the second coming… they could be right, i dont know… the point im making in this thread is what happens when we pass on during the period prior to the second coming, like right now… what happens on judgment day doesnt apply to our time in terms of the disposition of our earthly bodies and souls… on judgment day, many unique things will happen that will never be repeated: bodies rising from the dead, etc… that is a completely different circumstance: different game, different rules…

bodies may rise from their graves, maybe their former owners will even come to life and be judged again for their behavior on earth, but still, there is nothing that says the dead, or anyone else, will ascend to heaven in their human forms… i believe we will all appear in human form simply to be judged as humans… thereafter, we will shed our bodies and continue on to the next level: heaven or hell… only 2 humans have risen to heaven in human form: the virgin mary and christ… there is a reason for that distinction… mary, the only human born without original sin and christ, our saviour… everyone else, shed your humanity at the time of death, please…
 
Walking_Home said:
Are you saying that there is a complete break between those who reside in heaven and us who are still walking the earth. That once a soul reaches heaven — there is no concern for humanity. Do you believe that when we pray for their intercession —they can no longer hear us.
Click to expand...
I would agree. When we state our beliefs when reciting the creed, we profess our belief in the “communion of saints”. This means we know for certain that those in heaven are indeed aware of us and our prayers are heard in whatever way/amount/depth God so chooses}----btw i dont think the op is a “heretic” any more than a person who squashes a bug is a “murderer”, but that the Holy Spirit does call us to be more fully informed about our faith according to our own capacities …

–We also profess our belief in our own bodies being resurrected and reunited with our souls on the last day… my guess i that we will recognize ourselves and others, and that we will indeed have a MUCH FULLER awareness of our finite “previous stay” on earth.

—SORRY, i didnt read the last few posts! i didnt mean to reiterate parts of DRANZAL’S post…
 
remoat said:
the bible has been quoted in this forum to validate the impressions of members that our earthly forms will ascend to heaven; i suppose they mean that this will happen on judgment day, or the second coming… they could be right, i dont know… the point im making in this thread is what happens when we pass on during the period prior to the second coming, like right now… what happens on judgment day doesnt apply to our time in terms of the disposition of our earthly bodies and souls… on judgment day, many unique things will happen that will never be repeated: bodies rising from the dead, etc… that is a completely different circumstance: different game, different rules…

bodies may rise from their graves, maybe their former owners will even come to life and be judged again for their behavior on earth, but still, there is nothing that says the dead, or anyone else, will ascend to heaven in their human forms… i believe we will all appear in human form simply to be judged as humans… thereafter, we will shed our bodies and continue on to the next level: heaven or hell… only 2 humans have risen to heaven in human form: the virgin mary and christ… there is a reason for that distinction… mary, the only human born without original sin and christ, our saviour… everyone else, shed your humanity at the time of death, please…
Click to expand...
Okay, just so I am clear about what you are saying…

Are you on board with the Official Church Teaching regarding the “Resurrection of the Dead”? Do you believe that, after the “General Judgment” we will be reunited with our bodies and that they will have been made new?

Are you here ONLY inquiring about the “time” between now (when we die) and the “General Judgment”…the “time” when we (presumably) will not yet have our glorified body because the Resurrection will not yet have taken place?
 
remoat said:
the bible has been quoted in this forum to validate the impressions of members that our earthly forms will ascend to heaven; i suppose they mean that this will happen on judgment day, or the second coming… they could be right, i dont know… the point im making in this thread is what happens when we pass on during the period prior to the second coming, like right now… what happens on judgment day doesnt apply to our time in terms of the disposition of our earthly bodies and souls… on judgment day, many unique things will happen that will never be repeated: bodies rising from the dead, etc… that is a completely different circumstance: different game, different rules…

bodies may rise from their graves, maybe their former owners will even come to life and be judged again for their behavior on earth, but still, there is nothing that says the dead, or anyone else, will ascend to heaven in their human forms… i believe we will all appear in human form simply to be judged as humans… thereafter, we will shed our bodies and continue on to the next level: heaven or hell… only 2 humans have risen to heaven in human form: the virgin mary and christ… there is a reason for that distinction… mary, the only human born without original sin and christ, our saviour… everyone else, shed your humanity at the time of death, please…
Click to expand...
The catechism teaches that at our own particular judgements,{ after the soul separates from the body} the soul immediately receives it’s reward -{heaven}, it’s purification process- purgatory}, or hell. Focusing on hell for illustrative purpose-- our souls will know a "sense of loss"and pain} at this time. However, after the general judgement , {our bodies will be reunited with our souls} one would also feel a{greater} sense of actual physical pain . Our own resurrection will ADD to our glory or our suffering… we need our bodies in heaven BECAUSE we ARE humans just as Jesus was fully human{but also fully divine} and was resurrected as such.— by God’s love and design…
 
actually, im not inquiring about anything, except for readers’ opinions… im stating my opinions and asking for everyone’s view on the original post, that’s all…
Code: 
QUOTE: Are you here ONLY inquiring about the "time" between now (when we die) and the "General Judgment"....the "time" when we (presumably) will not yet have our glorified body because the Resurrection will not yet have taken place?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

i cant believe people post and ostensibly believe what they're writing.. when the soul separates from the body, the HUMAN IS DEAD-- THERE IS NO MORE HUMAN!! ask a priest; the bishop; a seminary student.. jesus RESURRECTED from the dead, yes, he was human, but also the son of god.. for this reason he ascended into heaven, because he would never die as a human would.. if we are comparable to jesus, why dont we ascend to heaven as he did when he died?  you say we need our bodies in heaven because we are human.. what is your source for this statement? what is your proof? is it an original claim with you, or is it church doctrine?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUOTE: we need our bodies in heaven BECAUSE we ARE humans just as Jesus was fully human{but also fully divine} and was resurrected.
 
remoat said:
actually, im not inquiring about anything, except for readers’ opinions… im stating my opinions and asking for everyone’s view on the original post, that’s all…
Code: 
QUOTE: Are you here ONLY inquiring about the "time" between now (when we die) and the "General Judgment"....the "time" when we (presumably) will not yet have our glorified body because the Resurrection will not yet have taken place?
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
i cant believe people post and ostensibly believe what they're writing.. when the soul separates from the body, the HUMAN IS DEAD-- THERE IS NO MORE HUMAN!! ask a priest; the bishop; a seminary student.. jesus RESURRECTED from the dead, yes, he was human, but also the son of god.. for this reason he ascended into heaven, because he would never die as a human would.. if we are comparable to jesus, why dont we ascend to heaven as he did when he died? you say we need our bodies in heaven because we are human.. what is your source for this statement? what is your proof? is it an original claim with you, or is it church doctrine?
 
I most certainly believe that which I posted!  I follow, as well as I can, the teaching of the Church.  Please provide a source describing the soul between earthly death and resurrection as no longer HUMAN.  I am quite curious.
 
Second, what do you mean "he would never die as a human would"?  He most certainly did die.  His body and soul separated until the Resurrection.  
 
Have you read the official Church doctrine that was quoted previously?
 
The Resurrection of the Body is a "DE FIDE" belief of the Church.
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUOTE: we need our bodies in heaven BECAUSE we ARE humans just as Jesus was fully human{but also fully divine} and was resurrected.
Click to expand...
 
QUOTE: we need our bodies in heaven BECAUSE we ARE humans just as Jesus was fully human{but also fully divine} and was resurrected…
Code: 
this is so convoluted, i dont know if i can respond.. if you need your body in heaven, why is it still here when you die? i suppose you intend that your body will resurrect on the final day, and it will accompany you into the hereafter.. i really, really doubt that god plans to resurrect every single corpse on resurrection day.. i dont pretend to understand scripture, but i have to believe that our "body" in god's context, means something other than the physical presentation we offer on earth.. do you really believe all the decomposed corpses will rise on resurrection day, like "night of the living dead"? what about bodies consumed by animals? will they reconstitute, clothing and all? "faith" in god's power doesn't necessarily mean refuting physical laws to give god the right-of-way to magically overturn earthly processes as we have understood them since man burned his finger in lighting a fire..
 
Heaven is being totally united to the Trinity-not a place-but a state of being.

By being as holy as one can be while still on this earth, one may enter into the Kingdom of God while still here by participating fully in the Eucharist.

That’s my goal, and I’m stickin’ to it.

When time ends, I want to be forever united with God, doing whatever He wills.
 
remoat said:
actually, im not inquiring about anything, except for readers’ opinions… im stating my opinions and asking for everyone’s view on the original post, that’s all…
Code: 
QUOTE: Are you here ONLY inquiring about the "time" between now (when we die) and the "General Judgment"....the "time" when we (presumably) will not yet have our glorified body because the Resurrection will not yet have taken place?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

i cant believe people post and ostensibly believe what they're writing.. when the soul separates from the body, the HUMAN IS DEAD-- THERE IS NO MORE HUMAN!! ask a priest; the bishop; a seminary student.. jesus RESURRECTED from the dead, yes, he was human, but also the son of god.. for this reason he ascended into heaven, because he would never die as a human would.. if we are comparable to jesus, why dont we ascend to heaven as he did when he died?  you say we need our bodies in heaven because we are human.. what is your source for this statement? what is your proof? is it an original claim with you, or is it church doctrine?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QUOTE: we need our bodies in heaven BECAUSE we ARE humans just as Jesus was fully human{but also fully divine} and was resurrected.
Click to expand...
Exactly. You don’t stop being human because your body and soul suffer separation. That separation does happen at death. Consult the CCC on this point, especially 624-637 and 1020-1060; there is too much of importance there to reproduce here.

CCC 630
During Christ’s period in the tomb, his divine person continued to assume both his soul and his body, although they were separated by death (italics mine). It is truly the Son of God made man who died and was buried…

CCC 632
The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given to the Apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.

Also consider the section 1020-1060
1052 “We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ’s grace…are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies.” (Paul VI, CPG, 28)
…
1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.
 
remoat said:
QUOTE: we need our bodies in heaven BECAUSE we ARE humans just as Jesus was fully human{but also fully divine} and was resurrected…
Code: 
this is so convoluted, i dont know if i can respond.. if you need your body in heaven, why is it still here when you die? i suppose you intend that your body will resurrect on the final day, and it will accompany you into the hereafter.. i really, really doubt that god plans to resurrect every single corpse on resurrection day.. i dont pretend to understand scripture, but i have to believe that our "body" in god's context, means something other than the physical presentation we offer on earth.. do you really believe all the decomposed corpses will rise on resurrection day, like "night of the living dead"? what about bodies consumed by animals? will they reconstitute, clothing and all? "faith" in god's power doesn't necessarily mean refuting physical laws to give god the right-of-way to magically overturn earthly processes as we have understood them since man burned his finger in lighting a fire..
Click to expand...
Again, Resurrection of the Dead is a DE FIDE teaching of the Catholic Church. We say it in the creed every time we go to Mass or say a rosary.

Our opinions on this don’t matter.

Did you read the posts from Catholic Dogma that desribe the teachings regarding heaven and resurrection of the dead?

We aren’t telling you our opinions. We are posting actual, official Church teachings.
 
1 Corinthians 15 (DR)

42 *So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption.
43 *It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power.
44 *It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:
45 *The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.
46 *Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual.
47 *The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly.
 
thedavidwilson said:
Wow! So many heresies so little time…

If by wings on our backs we will be like angels that is false. We will never be like angels. Angels are spirits we are spirits and souls. It is like comparing an apple to a human.

This is a heresy. We retain our identity and memories. How do the saints pray for us if they do not remember the life they use to live? Why would they pray for us? In your concept all they know is heavan. We are aware of the lost of our bodies becasue we are spirirt and soul and souls need a body to occupy. While we are aware of this loss we are satisfied since we are in the presence of God.

If we do not have any past memories then why be good in life? I might as well rob banks for a living. It would be a pretty exciting life and I would have more money. When I die I will forget all of this. Since I have forgotten all of my sins I could not possibly turn away from God. I would be in heavan regardless of how I lived my life.

Are you Catholic? :confused:

How do we know that heavan is good if we have nothing to compare it to? How then would we enjoy it? If I asked my grandfather to pray for me (assuming he is in heavan) how could he? He would have forgotten I even exist!

There is no need of anything when it comes to God. He allows us to retain our memories because it represents our free will. What’s the use of being granted free will and using it, if it will be taken away eventually? We are immortal creatures with free will. Take away our free will we cease to be human. We become animals who have a soul (animating life force) but do not have a spirit.

Memories are bad when you are not conforming to the will of God. But even these are good memories because they represent your journey to learn how to conform to the will of God. If you did not eventually conform to the will of God then you would not be in heavan.

You should thank God for all of these since these are opportunties He is presenting to you to conform your will to His. You should read this:
psalm40.org/conformity.html

The only thing you want is to conform your will to His. If this was not true you would be in Hell.

Then how do the saints pray for us? Why did god give us an identity, which represents our free will, in the first place?

Heresy.

That’s the first correct thing in this post.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Code: 
                                                                                                                                                                                          Misunderstandings, guesses, questions are not 'heresies'.  Be very Careful  using that word.    A heresy is a  Knowingly False teaching, by someone who should Know                                    better
 
I’ve read all the posts so far, and would like to put in my 2¢.

I agree with all the posters who have either quoted various writings or posted links to Catholic sources, so I’m not going to quote, link, or tell you what you “should” or “shouldn’t” do.

IMHO, however, I think that your reading some of the quotes or links may be beneficial and may cause you to alter some on your opinions about heaven.

While you are correct that your OP is your own opinion to which you are entitled, and that you were only looking for others’ opinions and not advice, what worries me is your apparent resistance to advice given.

Think of it this way:

Say you start a thread about barbecuing. Your initial post says, “I’m planning on having a big cook-out this weekend. I’ll be having a lot of guests and I want to make sure that the barbecue stays lit, so I’m going to use a couple of gallons of gasoline to light it.

“I don’t want anyone’s advice on how to barbecue or what to barbecue, I just want your opinions on barbecuing.”

Don’t you think that we here at CAF would all flock to tell you, “No! No! You shouldn’t do it that way. It’s dangerous!!” ???

And don’t you think that we would only have your best interests at heart?

In the same way, I would hope that you understand that even though you don’t want to hear “you should” or “you shouldn’t,” most people here at CAF truly are not only concerned that people who visit the forums are not misled by someone else’s erroneous beliefs, but are genuinely concerned about you… that since you identify yourself as Catholic but seem to profess some opinions which are at variance with Catholic teaching, they would like to point out authoritative writings which touch upon some of your opinions.

What I think that everyone should remember is that no one is sure what heaven will be like because no one has ever come back with a video. I don’t mean to be sarcastic or anything, but no matter what the Church teaches or what anyone thinks, the truest of all explanations is found in the 2nd Chapter of 1st Corinthians:
(9) but it is as scripture says: What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, what the mind of man cannot visualize; all that God has prepared for those who love him
Click to expand...
 
What no eye has seen and no ear has heard, what no mind has visulized… except St. John the beloved desciple.
 
Here’s a thought.
How about we all just worry about our immortal souls - and leave the “resurrected body” decision - to God. Does it really matter, so long as our souls are saved and with God? I’m not saying we shouldn’t be curious and search for truth but why not just center on the most important? Salvation.
 
PART 1–
QUOTE: “I don’t want anyone’s advice on how to barbecue or what to barbecue, I just want your opinions on barbecuing.”
Code: 
i love this thread because so many posts show the same characteristic: they write, but they dont pay attention to what they're saying.. let me get this straight-- you can't differentiate between soliciting the opinions of others, and the advice they offer in return? allow me to offer my opinion: an opinion is what you THINK ABOUT something, advice is what you SHOULD DO about something.. i AM INTERESTED in what you think about my post that describes my view of the afterlife; BUT, i am NOT INTERESTED in what you suggest i should do to learn more about the suibject.. i really don't want to to learn more about any subject.. i've done my time as a student of life, i'm now relaxing as a graduate of that school.. now, please pass the ribs and the corn-on-the-cob..

PART 2--
earlier posts in this thread continue to use the crucifixion and resurrection of christ as an example to use in support of a view on our bodies and memories, post-mortem.. this is truly fascinating-- that members draw a parallel between christ's transition from crucified rebel leader to risen savior and ourselves.. you guys really think that the human transition from existence on earth to a rewarded soul in heaven compares to christ's crucifixion, resurrection and ascension? i never mentioned christ's post-mortem experience as a guide to a christian's path to heaven.. how does christ's destiny from good friday to easter sunday figure in this issue? im talking about just plain folks, at thiis point in history.. there is no need to include christ's death or life, nor the final day of judgment-- our experience wouldn't be, could never be similar to his.. i find the elements of christ's experience and revelation distracting and irrelevant.. the issues i have raised concern our souls, not christ's.. the issues in my post are about how we pass from life to afterlife today, not when christ returns.. you guys are comparing the sinking of a small fishing boat to the titanic.. they both went under because they took on too much water to stay afloat, but that's as far as it goes.. this thread is about the outcome of our souls after death, not christ's.. this thread is about our transition to our reward or condemnation, not christ's, and not on the final judgment day; it's about today as judgment day, maybe yours, but not everyone else's, not all at once..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top