What is Integration?

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We all hear many opinions about how Europe is facing a problem of Integrating its Muslim minority .

We seeks everybodys view on

1- What is Integration?

2- What is to be expected from the European side and what they should do better ?

3- What to be Expected from the muslim minority side and what they should do better ?

Please every body lets make our opinion in points.

Thanks.
 
  1. Integrated, in this context, probably means a mix that reflects the make-up of a community. If a rown has 90% “A” people and 10% “B” people, then most of its public places, businesses, politicians, schools and organizations should reflect that. In general.
  2. Tolerance.
  3. Tolerance. If they are immigrants, they should accept existing customs, etc. while continuing to live their own culture.
    They may need to integrate themselves into Euro society, I don’t know. I was talking to a Dutch fellow a year or so back, and he said the Muslims have kept to themselves in neighborhood enclaves, largely because they can’t tolerate Euro culture. At least that he what he thought. I have no idea.
Jim
 
Thanks brother Ltony but still we are seeking to define

what is Euro culture?

what are the exisiting customs?

I mean here in Egypt there is every sort of life. You have Ultra religious people. You have people with no religion. You have Christians from all denominations.

There are no Ghettos whatsoever. Its a Mix where you never even know who is a christian or Muslim or athiest or anything.

Still we havent defined exactly what is Integration. We havent given any examples yet .

Do Muslims HAVE to go to bars to integrate?

Do Muslim women have to drop the Hijab to integrate?

Could it be that the minorities are facing hostility because of them bieng from another color to begin with? May be the initial reaction of Xenophobia that made immigrants back away from any further attemptes of integration?

I mean , there is this information that Europe verion of tolerance is to let people BE in our land. That doesnt mean they are equal or treated with same dignity or respect or have in effect the same rights. I dont knwo its just my opinion.

I mean , me as somebody from the middle east is someone who is coming from a warm culturre of all sorts of people coming to knwo each other and a culture that is very welcoming and hospitable to tourists . If i would go and live in Europe i would not like to live in ghettos . But its the attitude of people that will make me have a decision about it . I mean no body wants to be looked to as if he is an alien every time he goes out of the house just because he has differenmt skin color you know.

Here in Egypt chrisytian older women like to dress in Black dresses in a certain known fashion , they also have their Golden crosses over their chests . There is no Egyptian muslim that would feel strange about it .

Hope to have your opinions.

Thanks Brother Ltony but can you please explain more?

Thanks
 
I’ll leave it to the Euros to define their culture and customs. Probably like anywhere, they vary from location to location within a country, and change through time.
In my opinion, integration is just the physical mix of a society. Everybody everywhere without regard to schools, neighborhoods, etc. Tolerance is helpful and is a frame of mind – respect other people. Get the same in return. Learn from each other. Each culture has something of value that others can learn from.

Muslims shouldn’t HAVE to do anything to integrate. But in Western culture, if a Muslim chooses to drop the Hijab, that should be respected by other Muslims. If a Muslim continues to wear the garment, that should be respected, as well. Appearance is not supposed to be a condition of citizenship. Neither are political opinions. Or religion.
An immigrant is initially a guest, however, and should conduct themselves as such. Citizenship is a priviledge. If a immigrant doesn’t respect the host country, they shouldn’t live there, for the sake of their own happiness.
In the US, I think an immigrant seeking citizenship takes an oath to live by and defend the Constitution. Your first loyalty is to the country and it’s Constitution, not your religion. That’s just the way we roll here. Most like it that way. More people want to come here every day.
Also, just because I respect another person, doesn’t mean I have to accept the way they live. Maybe I want to have a big fat pork sandwich every day. Maybe Europe’s newest citizens don’t want to live like the existing Euros and are more comfortable living near each other. I don’t know.
 
Ok but still we havent given any specific advise for muslims to do !!!

I mean if we cant define what we want from muslims how can we be upset of them if they dont do it !!!

Brother Ltoney , lets take it in America, how do u want muslims to integrate in America?

.

Thanks
Meedo
 
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meedo:
Ok but still we havent given any specific advise for muslims to do !!! I mean if we cant define what we want from muslims how can we be upset of them if they dont do it !!!

Brother Ltoney , lets take it in America, how do u want muslims to integrate in America?
Thanks
Meedo
Click to expand...
My friend meedo:
I’m doing the best that I can. I mentioned above “respect” for each other. Attempt to mix in with other, different people while keeping your own identity.
I re-state: "Muslims shouldn’t HAVE to do anything to integrate. But in Western culture, if a Muslim chooses to drop the Hijab, that should be respected by other Muslims. If a Muslim continues to wear the garment, that should be respected, as well. Appearance is not supposed to be a condition of citizenship. Neither are political opinions. Or religion.
An immigrant is initially a guest, however, and should conduct themselves as such. Citizenship is a priviledge. If a immigrant doesn’t respect the host country, they shouldn’t live there, for the sake of their own happiness.
“Your first loyalty is to the country and it’s Constitution, not your religion” or your race or your political party, etc.

I might be able to answer your question better if I knew where you were coming from. You wrote, “I mean if we cant define what we want from muslims how can we be upset of them if they dont do it !!!”
Are you saying that some Muslims are unfairly criticized for not “integrating”??? I’m sure some are, and nothing they do will ever satisafy some of those critics. But at the same time, there are Muslims who segregate themselves from the rest of us. They have nothing but contempt for the culture they were born in or moved to.
I can understand some of it. After all, people are naturally more comfortable living with other people just like them. But hypocratic hostility that some express confuses me. They complain they are discriminated against, yet they behave as though they want nothing to do with us unlesss we see the world EXACTLY as they see it. No. I won’t.
All you have to do to see this self-segregation is go to whyislam.org. Marwan and BrJimC despise Americans and it’s people, in my opinion. They frequently divide people based on religion: “This is not to include all of the 750 volunteers we are organizing for 1 day of food distribution in the astrodome to non-Muslims… this is not to include all of the Muslim families that we are coordinating to take into their homes NON-muslim people…”
whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5333&PN=1&TPN=3

Coincidently, I ran across a story on this very topic yesterday in the newspaper:
newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-religion-today,0,4048848.story

Related stories:
indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050903/NEWS06/509030395/1012/NEWS06

newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-american-muslims,0,654787.story

islamonline.org/English/News/2005-09/03/article01.shtml

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/03/MNG6CEI2L31.DTL

However, I Googled these other points of view (which I haven’t read):
frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19363

headlines.agapepress.org/archive/9/22005h.asp

This is also interesting. Be advised Christian children have also been prevented from praying in school.
newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-muslim-friendly-schools,0,3459058.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines
 
““My friend meedo:
I’m doing the best that I can””

I am sorry if i overwhelmed you really i didnt mean it . Its just that i fealt its a really important topic and i wanted to gain more knowledge froim you . If i have offended you in any way then i sincerely appologise.

" I mentioned above “respect” for each other. Attempt to mix in with other, different people while keeping your own identity.
I re-state: “Muslims shouldn’t HAVE to do anything to integrate. But in Western culture, if a Muslim chooses to drop the Hijab, that should be respected by other Muslims. If a Muslim continues to wear the garment, that should be respected, as well. Appearance is not supposed to be a condition of citizenship. Neither are political opinions. Or religion.”"

**I totally agree with all above , and if i immigrate then i should abide by teh above rules **

““An immigrant is initially a guest, however, and should conduct themselves as such. Citizenship is a priviledge. If a immigrant doesn’t respect the host country, they shouldn’t live there, for the sake of their own happiness.””

Well true , but i wish you elaborate. Lets say for example that i live in Ireland and they drink so so so much that they sometimes sleep on the street unconsious there and i feel that this act is vulgar and uncivil. Does this mean i despise Ireland?

“Your first loyalty is to the country and it’s Constitution, not your religion” or your race or your political party, etc."

Well technically yes . But can you say that your loyalty to your government is mroe imnportant to you than your faith in God ? I mean if hypothetically The government decides to ban the catholic churches and any catholic congregation. If you see someone making a secret congregation and prayer would you report him to the police? I can feel yoru statement may need mroe explanation in order to clarify any misunderstanding on my part. I am njot sure i got you quite right .

""Are you saying that some Muslims are unfairly criticized for not “integrating”??? I’m sure some are, and nothing they do will ever satisafy some of those critics. “”

**very true and wise **
 
"“But at the same time, there are Muslims who segregate themselves from the rest of us. They have nothing but contempt for the culture they were born in or moved to.”

Yes i think this happens and should be dealt with .

“I can understand some of it. After all, people are naturally more comfortable living with other people just like them. But hypocratic hostility that some express confuses me. They complain they are discriminated against, yet they behave as though they want nothing to do with us unlesss we see the world EXACTLY as they see it. No. I won’t.”"

Of course you are right. And i would do the same to if i were you .

““All you have to do to see this self-segregation is go to whyislam.org. Marwan and BrJimC despise Americans and it’s people, in my opinion. They frequently divide people based on religion: “This is not to include all of the 750 volunteers we are organizing for 1 day of food distribution in the astrodome to non-Muslims… this is not to include all of the Muslim families that we are coordinating to take into their homes NON-muslim people…”””

Well let me tell you somthing , there will be always people who will devide by religion and they exist in every society but i agree with you that there is no place for “contempt” there is a place for disagreement . Yet we have to work to bridge the gaps without infringing on each other.

But something i might wanna add is that the atmosphere of Europe doesnt encourage Integration really .

-Lots of peopel are racist

-Their Concept of Integration is total loss of identity and total blending .
  • Their concept of tolerance is to let immigrants live in their countries.
  • Their frequent attack on Islam gets people radicalised more and more intead of engulving them into the society .
This last point isa problem really , Europe mainly sees immigrants as sort fo beggers she can do charity for them but they should never dream of Equality . This despise for immigrants generally puts them on the defensive.

Just today a friend of mine called and she lives in Europe . Some body came and told her while she was sitting in the town square to go back to her country and start walking towards her whuile she had her 4 year old beside her . This lady is already a European by the way but she wears the Hijab and she can talk the language of the country . She was terrified . When she called the police they didnt give much damn and they didnt come.

Now this lady is a native. Immagine somthing like that happen for an immigrant . Wouldnt she want to live inside a muslim area better ?

There is a reason for people not to mingle . Its fear . Europe concept of integration is that i can let you live in my country and probably every once in a while i will give you a bad look !!!

This wouldnt help any body integrate and would keep every body in the ghettos .

Peace
 
Well true , but i wish you elaborate. Lets say for example that i live in Ireland and they drink so so so much that they sometimes sleep on the street unconsious there and i feel that this act is vulgar and uncivil. Does this mean i despise Ireland?

No. As I stated earlier, “Also, just because I respect another person, doesn’t mean I have to accept the way they live.”
You and I think alike on the drunken behavior, meedo. Our lack of respect for those INDIVIDUALS is reasonable, I believe. But we should not let our opinion on this one issue affect how we view that entire society.
Now, if a person finds more and more things about that society that are “vulgar and uncivil” maybe they should just leave – even if they are native – rather than set themself apart AND ABOVE… physically AND morally.​

“Your first loyalty is to the country and it’s Constitution, not your religion” or your race or your political party, etc."

Well technically yes . But can you say that your loyalty to your government is mroe imnportant to you than your faith in God ? I mean if hypothetically The government decides to ban the catholic churches and any catholic congregation. If you see someone making a secret congregation and prayer would you report him to the police? I can feel yoru statement may need mroe explanation in order to clarify any misunderstanding on my part. I am njot sure i got you quite right .

I didn’t say loyalty to your government is more important than your faith in God. I said, “Your first loyalty is to the country (fellow citizens) and it’s Constitution”.
Do you see the difference?
My faith in God is always #1. But regarding things of this earth – my society, culture – I think of my countrymen and our Constitution first. I think that’s how God wants me to see it, in fact.
Ours is intended to be a secular government. Let’s use your example of a ban on the Catholic Church…or on Lutherans…or Muslims… any religion. That ban violates the Constitution. So I would fight any attack on any religion, not because I believe in that religion, but because I believe in the Constitution.
See the difference?​

**very true and wise **
I’m not sure about the wisdom part, but I do believe it is an accurate observation over the years. Some people will never be satisfied. And I’m not just talking about Christian bigots, but Muslim bigots as well. I’m certain their are Muslims in Europe or people in the US like BrJimC who will never be happy living in Western culture. That’s why I think they should move to another country. I think they would be happier.
The behavior in the story you shared about your European friend is inexcuseable. Your friend, however, has a responsibility not to shrink away. She should continue to wear her clothing right in front of him and others like him, virtually saying, “Yeah, I’m Muslim and I’m proud, baby. I’m not going anywhere. So get used to it.”
The Muslim communities in Europe also have a responsibility to stage cultural events to remove misunderstandings of their religion AND race (Arab, Indonesian, etc.) . Non-native Muslims often have that double problem – religion AND race.
In my town, people seem to love these cultural events. Actually, I think they just like the foods that are offered 🙂 They go on all the time; some have become big annual traditions ---- part of the local culture, yippeee!!!
That’s how it (integration) works. But you have to be patient. Every one of us has been kicked around a bit some time in history. We shouldn’t carry a grudge.
Also, regarding this perceived bigot in Europe. Maybe he acted that way because he was afraid. Afraid of Muslims, or of other changes he sees going on around him. I’ll be very, very honest with you, meedo. I’m a little afraid of Islam, some Muslims. Sometimes, it’s down right scarey.
But I always enjoy our discussions, meedo. And they help diminish the fear. So don’t ever worry about “over-whelming” me with questions. I’m sorry you got that idea.
(By the way, the above are just my opinions. I could be wrong in some of them.)

Jim
 
Brother Jim Hello

Well i understand much better now and agree on all you said . I wish all people were like you including some muslim bigots too.

Yes i admit , the events that is happening can make people scared of muslims.

What can i say … i just hope that you visit a muslim country that has no political conflict in it and just see the people living their lives normally .

You know , its sort of like russia 20 years ago. Normally at that time you would be scared of Russia . But when you get to talk to russians you find them very kind people really .

I tell you the truth from my heart , we dont hate freedom or human rights or any of this stuff, its just that past mistakes of foreign policy has rendered this area totally untrusting in any US initiative.

I dont want to go through political stuff over and over again , but i want to assure you that we have nothing but respect for what america stands and we differentiate between normal american citizen and foriegn policy . Its just that this region doesnt bear any more mistakes.

peace
 
Meedo:
Code: 
        It seems we agree.  I liked your analogy of US-Soviet relations of 20 years ago.  I hope to visit Italy, Egypt and England some day.

        Regarding U.S. foreign policy:  I don’t blame for feeling the way you do.  But I ask that you keep a couple of things in mind.  The U.S. is like a bull in a china shop; every time it moves a few inches things get broken.  “Sorry.  Didn’t mean to break that,” the bull apologizes.

        The U.S. is also “the big dog.”  A lot of responsibility goes with that.  And a lot of pressure.  Cause if the big dog makes a mistake, everybody feels it.  A big dog is required to make a lot of decisions; big, important decisions that will affect everybody in the world. And it seems as though everybody comes to us, asking us to solve their problems.  Sometimes our solutions – however well intended – don’t work out so well.  Some people end up hating us for that.

        Then somebody approaches us with another problem.  We decide we won’t try to solve it, because of how bad we did on the last one.  Some people end up hating us because we did nothing.

        Before you know it, we’ve ended up getting everybody mad or disappointed in us at one time or another.  And they all carry a grudge. 

        Sorry.
 
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