What is it that makes human life inherently valuable and worthy of protection?

[IWantGod]

You guys have such a bizarre way of seeing the world. Human love is worthless unless there is a god, but God’s love is worthwhile because…?

Its not bizarre. If there is no God, then you life is no more valuable than a bug. You have no more right to life than a chimpanzee.

Things have objective ontological value because we exist inside God (he is the very being in which and through which created things exist), and God’s “nature” is love, Gods nature is Goodness itself. Therefore our value is determined by that nature; God is the objective standard because he is the antithesis of Nothing; God is existence.

 

[davidv]

You guys have such a bizarre way of seeing the world.

Or, it is your way of seeing the world that is the truly bizarre way.

Human love is worthless unless there is a god, but God’s love is worthwhile because…?

No, love, of the kind that is sacrificial self giving for the good of another, does not exist without God.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Or, it is your way of seeing the world that is the truly bizarre way.

I believe that the people I love and care about are valuable. Yeah,sure,bizarre that one.

No, love, of the kind that is sacrificial self giving for the good of another, does not exist without God.

That’s demonstrably untrue. I sacrifice for other people all the time. It requires no more supernatural intervention than anything else I do.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Its not bizarre. If there is no God, then you life is no more valuable than a bug. You have no more right to life than a chimpanzee.

Things have objective ontological value because we exist inside God (he is the very being in which and through which created things exist), and God’s “nature” is love, Gods nature is Goodness itself. Therefore our value is determined by that nature; God is the objective standard because he is the antithesis of Nothing; God is existence.

Sounds like phlogiston. We knew phlogiston exists because things combust, therefore they must have a combustible element. Only thing is, it did. The same way, we exist because there is a being that is existence making us exist.

Or…

We exist, and we’re special to the only people capable of making that judgment call. The beings who invented the concept of value have decided that we are valuable.

The evidence points to the one I believe.

 

[drac16]

Life is sacred. We need to be the voice of those who have no voice, we need to stick up for those who are oppressed. It’s our duty as humans to look out for one another. We’re God’s vicegerents, so what we do matters.

 

[davidv]

I believe that the people I love and care about are valuable. Yeah,sure,bizarre that one.

That’s demonstrably untrue. I sacrifice for other people all the time. It requires no more supernatural intervention than anything else I do.

Please demonstrate that these sacrifices are done absent God.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Please demonstrate that these sacrifices are done absent God.

For clarity, are you asking for support that these sacrifices are done without God existing or are you asking for demonstration that these sacrifices are performed without a person being *convinced *that God exists?

 

[davidv]

For clarity, are you asking for support that these sacrifices are done without God existing or are you asking for demonstration that these sacrifices are performed without a person being *convinced *that God exists?

No, I am saying that putting, ‘I sacrifice’ with ‘I don’t believe’ says nothing about the existence of God. Therefore the original remark was not a logical rebuttal of the statement regarding God being the source of agape.

 

[IWantGod]

Sounds like phlogiston. We knew phlogiston exists because things combust, therefore they must have a combustible element. Only thing is, it did. The same way, we exist because there is a being that is existence making us exist.

Or…

We exist, and we’re special to the only people capable of making that judgment call. The beings who invented the concept of value have decided that we are valuable.

The evidence points to the one I believe.

Without God you have no true value. Of course i agree that it may be the case that you cause chemical reactions in peoples brain thus causing human organisms to to react in a way you can describe as valuing something to the extent of sacrifice; but thats only because they think it has real meaning, that it really says something about them which transcends mere biochemistry. And yet at the end of the day we are talking about a chemical reaction, nothing more. Theres no meaning in it, there is no value in it. You are delusional.

The evidence, if you are correct, points to a meaningless sacrifice. It has no real content. Its a chemical fantasy.

However i do experience real meaning in our behavior especially when we sacrifice for others, transcending mere biochemistry. Seems to me the evidence points to God.

 

[IWantGod]

How do you figure?

Most atheists are theists in how they respond to meaning. You simply fail to see the link between meaningful experiences and the existence of God.

Your theory may be atheist in nature but a real Atheist does not practically exist.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Most atheists are theists in how they respond to meaning. You simply fail to see the link between meaningful experiences and the existence of God.

Your theory may be atheist in nature but a real Atheist does not practically exist.

Language doesn’t work like that. I don’t suddenly believe in elves because I believe that there are shoes. I don’t believe in leprechauns because I believe in rainbows. I don’t believe in phlogiston because I believe things burn.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Without God you have no true value. Of course i agree that it may be the case that you cause chemical reactions in peoples brain thus causing human organisms to to react in a way you can describe as valuing something to the extent of sacrifice; but thats only because they think it has real meaning, that it really says something about them which transcends mere biochemistry. And yet at the end of the day we are talking about a chemical reaction, nothing more. Theres no meaning in it, there is no value in it. You are delusional.

The evidence, if you are correct, points to a meaningless sacrifice. It has no real content. Its a chemical fantasy.

However i do experience real meaning in our behavior especially when we sacrifice for others, transcending mere biochemistry. Seems to me the evidence points to God.

No, what is happening is that you have said, “Nothing chemical has any real value. Everything that happens naturally is an illusion.”

That’s demonstrably wrong.To solve this problem of your own creation, you need to event the evidence of God who gives things value…how? Oh right, you won’t discuss it.

You think that I am living a fantasy because I think that the world I observe is important without regard to a different world that I can’t see, experience, or observe. You are the one living in a fantasy.

I have a question for you. Let’s say it was in my power to do one of the following things. Which would you rather have happen:

1. Lose your faith in God.
2. Have your entire family killed.

I’m guessing that if it came right down to it, you’d choose to keep the “chemical fantasy” rather than the thing that is the “source of all meaning”.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

Please demonstrate that these sacrifices are done absent God.

I have already told you that there is no observable difference between me sacrificing and acting any other way. If you want me to be more detailed in my rebuttal. Please provide the exact mechanism that God is using to rob me of my free will when I am acting in a self-sacrificing way. I can’t properly test it without a properly constructed hypothesis.

 

[IWantGod]

1. Lose your faith in God.
2. Have your entire family killed.

I’m guessing that if it came right down to it, you’d choose to keep the “chemical fantasy” rather than the thing that is the “source of all meaning”.

Family has no meaning if there is no God, we are just biochemical organisms. You are the one that is delusional because the meaning you asign to things including the meaning that is derived from your biochemical compulsions has no objective reality. You are completely irrational.

 

[IWantGod]

No, what is happening is that you have said, “Nothing chemical has any real value. Everything that happens naturally is an illusion.”

That’s demonstrably wrong.

The Meaning that forms the basis of your actions is an illusion. You simply refuse to acknowledge the logical outcome of your atheism because you are attached to the fantasies you indulge in on a daily basis. There is nothing reasonable about your behavior.

 

[TheCuriousCat]

The Meaning that forms the basis of your actions is an illusion. You simply refuse to acknowledge the logical outcome of your atheism because you are attached to the fantasies you indulge in on a daily basis. There is nothing reasonable about your behavior.

I’m pretty convinced at this point that even you don’t know what your argument really is. Usually I am the one trying to show the logical flaws in my opponents arguments, but you have reduced your own arguments to absurdity.

I wish you the best, but I can’t continue going down the rabbit hole with you if you are going to deny the existence of reality.

 

[IWantGod]

I’m pretty convinced at this point that even you don’t know what your argument really is. Usually I am the one trying to show the logical flaws in my opponents arguments, but you have reduced your own arguments to absurdity.

I wish you the best, but I can’t continue going down the rabbit hole with you if you are going to deny the existence of reality.

I did not deny the existence of reality

You cannot face a reality thats has no true meaning in it. But thats what your atheism leads to. It leads to absurdity.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Bolding my own.

Without God you have no **true **

value.
IWantGod;14163214:

You cannot face a reality thats has no **true **

meaning in it.

What do you mean by “true value” and "**true **meaning?"They way that it is used here looks more like the sense that indicates how someone feels about something (unless there is something that differentiates “true value” from “untrue value” and “true meaning” from “untrue meaning.”).