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SteveVH
Guest
So why are you here? And did you ever wonder where you got Word of God? Do you think you received it from a demonic organization?
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Izdaari
Guest
That I have found my way here hardly proves that Catholicism is correct. I post on a good many forums of faiths and ideologies with which I don’t totally agree. This is just one more. I think it’s a good one, which is why I keep coming back, but I could say the same about an Independent Fundamental Baptist forum and a Wiccan forum.
I’m an American Anglican (aka Episcopalian), and I do consider myself “small-l” catholic. Our church describes itself as Anglo-Catholic, and we work closely with a group of Benedictines. But the many issues on which Episcopalians and the Vatican are in disagreement are all matters on which I take the Episcopalian side. So I guess I’d better stay where I am.
I’m an American Anglican (aka Episcopalian), and I do consider myself “small-l” catholic. Our church describes itself as Anglo-Catholic, and we work closely with a group of Benedictines. But the many issues on which Episcopalians and the Vatican are in disagreement are all matters on which I take the Episcopalian side. So I guess I’d better stay where I am.
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Mystophilus
Guest
- Infallibility ascribed to anyone or anything anywhere ever apart from God alone.
- Dogma: not just specific, individual dogmata, but the very idea of dogma itself, that a thing can be beyond question (see #1, above).
- The Catholic position on the ordination of women (see #1 and #2, above).
- The Catholic position on homosexuality (see #1 and #2, above).
- To be frank, the attitude of some Catholic “apologists”, who seem to believe that the end justify the means. I realise that that one is not especially fair, given the number of non-vicious Catholics, but every encounter with them reinforces the emotional weight of it.
- I really don’t like Latin (the language, Roman culture, Roman thought, any of it). It’s a chore, whereas Greek is a joy.
- I agree much more with Orthodox theology than with Catholic theology (see #6 above).
CAF is a well-moderated site (an enormously-rare thing) which lets me indulge my interests in Greek, history, and religion.
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VesselofMercy
Guest
Didn’t the OP suggest why I’m here? The Holy Spirit’s leading according to them.So why are you here? And did you ever wonder where you got Word of God? Do you think you received it from a demonic organization?
I don’t believe the Word of God came from the current Church of Rome as you are implying.
Can you imagine the Pharisees and scribes used that argument against Jesus and His disciples every time they appealed to the authority of Scripture? (The OT is quoted at least 295 times in the NT) “Did you ever wonder where you got the Word of God?” What do you think Jesus and his disciples would have answered?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Because I profoundly disagree with the claims of Rome and believe the truth of the Orthodox church as the Body of Christ.
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PJM
Guest
THANK YOU:thumbsup:
If I may, why aren’t you Catholic?
God Bless you,
Patick
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Aslan10
Guest
Well, like I wrote previously, a lot of reasons. I would not say that “I’ll never become Catholic,” because you never know what can happen. The majority of my reasons are doctrinal. The largest being the Catholic claim that it is “the one true church” and has never erred. I imagine, had I been born a Catholic, believing its doctrines would not be difficult. Also, “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” is a bit of a struggle for me. I understand the invincible ignorance argument, but even when that is broken down, it limits salvation a lot. I cannot think that my journey with Christ and many others journey with Him, have been a sham.
Also, leaving the church of my birth (Reformed Presbyterian), which I am trying to slowly accomplish, is a very sensitive issue within my family; due to my family being a part of it for four generations and many are very anti-catholic. I consider myself an Anglican and enjoy the parish that I have become a part of, however, even the Anglican Church can be “too Catholic” in some of my family’s views. It is a scandal that I do not regularly attend the Church my family and extended family have attended for ages; I cannot imagine what it would be like if I became Catholic. Regardless, I enjoy the freedom of not having to hold to so many doctrines as an Anglican. I am afraid the RCC just has too many required beliefs–I understand them and the reasons for those beliefs, but I have trouble accepting all them. If I cannot accept all of them, I cannot join the RCC in good conscious.
With that said, I have been to many masses, I enjoy many Catholic apologists (Fr. Robert Barron & Peter Kreeft), and I have visited a Catholic monastery for a spiritual retreat once. I love the RCC but cannot join in good faith. I know this is vague, but there is only so much I can write on an internet forum.
God bless you as well.
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Matthew_Light
Guest
Whenever I hear people accusing those of different beliefs of following Satan, I am reminded of Luke 11, when our Lord Himself was accused of being in league with Baalzebub.
It is very difficult to have a peaceful world when we see those who view things differently than us as led by demons and devils.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
None, I am Catholic
I do like talking about my faith though, and for the most part, I have found from my non-Catholic Christian friends it is due to misunderstanding. I already explained in one post how I had an EOC priest as a professor and that whilst he clearly knew Catholicism’s teachings, he was unsure of what to think about some things, and he referred to us as “legalistic” which hurt. Nice guy though. I have one friend, she is Anglican church in North America, she actually became a Christian after discussions with me, she is catholic (note the lower case) in theology, but Protestant in practice, which she tends to agree. I have a southern Baptist friend who for a while would regularly asked ME questions about the Bible! And I think many non-Catholics are so afraid to ask questions. A warning to those that are not Catholic: Please don’t ask questions like “why do Catholics follow traditions of men” or “why do Catholics have the doctrine of clerical celibacy”? Or again, “why do Catholics worship Mary”? Because you are asking questions based on previous assumptions. God bless.
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Aslan10
Guest
Far from it. Reformed PresbyterianThis is one of those rare times when I would say - “…and I hope your dad is not Catholic!”
Peace!!!
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spedteacherita
Guest
I have the same reasons why I’m not Catholic except I have some problems with the Marian Doctrines.
I’m here because I believe the Holy Spirit brought me here, not necessarily to be come a Catholic but more to learn what Catholics believe in the context of what Catholics say they believe. I’ve read books and have had conversations from people who are not Catholics but that has only given me info from protestant doctrine and thought.
I have dowloaded and printed out many of these threads so that I can take the info and process it in my time (just a bit of a cognitive impairment here
)I don’t enjoy the put downs by some of the members who are in here (from every faith) the way some debates get.
Thanks! and God Bless
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PJM
Guest
Thank you for your post=adamhovey1988;12755358]None, I am Catholic
Might I ask what you plan to do to assist these non-catholic friends of your to discover the necessarily singular truth about God being One, so His Truth too MUST also be limited to one…
God Bless you,
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
Gently, I disagree with your posture stated here.=adamhovey1988;12755358]None, I am Catholic
Allow and EVEN encourage any and all questions and be prepared in charity and clarity with facts to discuss them as they are entitles to there “day in court” and these questions can OPEN many doors.
I ask you humbly to reconsider your position.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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adamhovey1988
Guest
Oh, I wasn’t saying they shouldn’t ask any questions! That would be absurd! I was merely stating that they should know that these are some really common objections to Catholicism in spite of not actually being what Catholicism teachesGently, I disagree with your posture stated here.
Allow and EVEN encourage any and all questions and be prepared in charity and clarity with facts to discuss them as they are entitles to there “day in court” and these questions can OPEN many doors.
I ask you humbly to reconsider your position.
God Bless you,
Patrick
I am sure that most of our non-Catholic friends here are people of goodwill that really are curious about the Faith.
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PJM
Guest
Thanks for your [shortened] reply
Great reply my friend.
Faith is a journey, and seldom a straight path. And none of it’s curves and hills are useless in the effort to discover God’s necessarily singular truths as even God can have only One truth per defined issue.
Let’s take the issue of Cf. “Doctrine and never being in error to begin our dialog & being the One TRUE Church.”
First allow me to explain that the “infallibility” issues pertains only and exclusively to matters of Faith “Beliefs and Moral Teachings” And by specific and precise definition:
“Can. 749 §1 In virtue of his office the Supreme Pontiff is infallible in his teaching when, as chief Shepherd and Teacher of all Christ’s faithful, with the duty of strengthening his brethren in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals.
§2 The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching when the Bishops, gathered together in an Ecumenical Council and exercising their magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitivelydeclare for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals; likewise, when the Bishops, dispersed throughout the world but maintaining the bond of union among themselves and with the successor of Peter, together with the same Roman Pontiff authentically teach matters of faith or morals, and are agreed that a particular teaching is definitively to be held.
§3 No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless this is manifestly demonstrated.
Can. 750 Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, which is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred magisterium. All are therefore bound to shun any contrary doctrines.” END Quotes
Because space is wisely limited on the FORUM, my response will be more brief than I would like to make it.
A very common misunderstanding outside thee Church is to not identify the essential differences between Doctrine which are unchangeable and “church practices” which are changeable. So in order to carry on a intelligent discussion, I ask that you give specific examples that we can dissect and discuss.
As to the Church’s claim of being of being “the One True Church”:
Please read carefully Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; Mt. 18:18; John 17:11-26 & Mt. 28:16-20. Space does not permit me printing them out for you here. Take note of the specificity Christ uses in each Teaching, He is speaking exclusively and directly to His Apostles and through them [Mt. 10: 5-6 & 28:18-20] where the Original mandate Cf. of “only to the Jew’s” is changed BY Christ to “the entire world” thus mandating Succession to enable the task assigned to be fulfilled.
Then note that only today’s CC has both historical & biblical evidence of dating back directly to Christ & His Apostles. [The Eastern Schism churches having been a part of the RCC for about 1,000 years before the separation]
The passages I proposed also give specific evidence of WHY She [the CC] can’t teach on faith issues or moral teachings in error. Christ Himself warrants it. Mt. 16:18; John 17:18-19 & Mt. 28:20 all support this position.
So I would ask that we get more specific. The more you do this, the better I shall be enabled to address your specific concerns.
God Bless you,
Patrick [PJM]
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PJM
Guest
Great reply, thank you my friend.
Let’s take the issue of Cf. “Doctrine and never being in error to begin our dialog.”
First allow me to explain that the “infallibility” issues pertains only and exclusively to matters of Faith “Beliefs and Moral Teachings” And by specific and precise definition:
“Can. 749 §1 In virtue of his office the Supreme Pontiff is infallible in his teaching when, as chief Shepherd andTeacher of all Christ’s faithful, with the duty of strengthening his brethren in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals.
§2 The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching when the Bishops, gathered together in an Ecumenical Council and exercising their magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitivelydeclare for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals; likewise, when the Bishops, dispersed throughout the world but maintaining the bond of union among themselves and with the successor of Peter, together with the same Roman Pontiff authentically teach matters of faith or morals, and are agreed that a particular teaching is definitively to be held.
§3 No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless this is manifestly demonstrated.
Can. 750 Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, which is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred magisterium. All are therefore bound to shun any contrary doctrines.” END Quotes
Because space is wisely limited on the FORUM, my response will be more brief than I would like to make it.
A very common misunderstanding outside thee Church is to not identify the essential differences between Doctrine which are unchangeable and “church practices” which are changeable. So in order to carry on a intelligent discussion, I ask that you give specific examples that we can dissect and discuss.
As to the Church’s claim of being of being “the One True Church”:
Please read carefully Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; Mt. 18:18; John 17:11-26 & Mt. 28:16-20. Space does not permit me printing them out for you here. Take note of the specificity Christ uses in each Teaching, He is speaking exclusively and directly to His Apostles and through them [Mt. 10: 5-6 & 28:18-20] where the Original mandate Cf. of “only to the Jew’s” is changed BY Christ to “the entire world” thus mandating Succession to enable the task assigned to be fulfilled.
Then note that only today’s CC has both historical & biblical evidence of dating back directly to Christ & His Apostles. [The Eastern Schism churches having been a part of the RCC for about 1,000 years before the separation]
The passages I proposed also give specific evidence of WHY She [the CC] can’t teach on faith issues or moral teachings in error. Christ Himself warrants it. Mt. 16:18; John 17:18-19 & Mt. 28:20 all support this position.
So I would ask that we get more specific. The more you do this, the better I shall be enabled to address your specific concerns.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
So dear friend two questions and a few shared bible passages:
Does not Truth per defined issue HAVE TO BE singular?
Mt. 10: 1-8 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, … These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles,…** But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.** And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give."
Mt. 16:18-19 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.** And I will give to thee [all of] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”**
John 17:14-26 [parts] "I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evi {God cannot deny Himself]** Sanctify them in truth.** Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.** And for them [ALONE] do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.** That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: in them, and thou in me;** that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me**. Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world. Just Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee: and these have known that thou hast sent me".
Just as Yahweh had only One Chosen People, One set of mandated Faith beliefs and One God; so too Christ followed His own Tradition of having One true God; One True Faith and Only One True Church:
Eph. 4:1-7 "I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body[1 Church] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord,** one faith**, { 1 set of beliefs] one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.*** But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ***
Mt. 28:18-20 "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded [taught to] you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
second question: Only today’s CC has God’s assurance of teaching the fullness of His necessary singular truths.
Today’s CC dates back directly to the Apostles and what Christ COMMANDED THEM exclusively to do; namely TEACH the World what I Taught to you.
God desires to have us conform our wills to His; is it even possible for man to insist that God conform His Divine will to theirs?
It boils down to who is in charge
God or us and the responsibility can’t be shared,
2 Peter 1: 20-21 with Douay explanation " [20]*** Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.***
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world.
[21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost"
God Bless you and thanks for your post!
Patrick [PJM]
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PJM
Guest
My dear friend in Christ, thank you for your thoughtful response.
I do hope you did not go to Catholic Confession. If so, it would not have been valid
Catholics do NOT believe that WORKS ALONE can result in salvation:thumbsup:
Let’s begin at the beginning. The Bible my friend is a Catholic Book. It was the forefathers of today’s Catholic Church that birthed the bible. We choose all the books to be included in the Old Testament; and it is Catholics who authored the ENTIRE New Testament. This is extremely important for all of the following reasons:
Acts 20: 28-30 ”Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, [singular] which he hath purchased with his own blood. I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them” Douay Rheims Bible [older than the King GREATLY EDITED James]
John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”
Eph. 2: 20-23 “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: In whom all the building, [singular] being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. [Singular] In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit”
Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [ONLY ONE SET OF TRUE FAITH BELIEFS] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift”
2nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability
2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
And these are merely the tip of the iceberg of Christ necessarily singular TRUTH
As for Justification by faith alone:
This was a recent teaching given birth by Luther in the 16th Century, some 1,500 years AFTER the bible had been written; approved and used even by Luther himself. The changes were made in order to “sell” his new founded and invented faith, which he did quite successfully. BUT it’s not what the file teaches, nor what God demands.
It presumes that sins can’t exist after Baptism which is definitely NOT biblical. It also presumes to tell God how He will save his Created humanity. Impossible.
1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
John.20 Verses 20 to 23" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them,
and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”
My friend do yourself a huge favor and read the other replies I have made today to this string. Then ASK questions.
God Bless you,
Patrick [PJM]
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SteveVH
Guest
Well, I didn’t ask why the OP thought you were here, I asked you.
Really? Then please tell me who decided what should be included and what should be excluded from our Bible? If not the Catholic Church, then who? And when? And how? How do you know that there are 27 books in the New Testament and not 26 or 28 or 400?
The point is that if the Catholic Church has the hand of Satan upon it then the canon of Scripture does as well and therefore cannot be trusted, much less used as the sole rule of faith.
Steve
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Mystophilus
Guest
I’m not so sure.I do hope you did not go to Catholic Confession. If so, it would not have been valid
From Catholic canon law:
Can. 991 All Christ’s faithful are free to confess their sins to lawfully approved confessors of their own choice, even to one of another rite.
Can. 204 §1 Christ’s faithful are those who, since they are incorporated into Christ through baptism, are constituted the people of God.
Can. 980 If the confessor is in no doubt about the penitent’s disposition and the penitent asks for absolution, it is not to be denied or delayed.
While canon law discusses “sacramental confession” as a distinct operation, it does quite clearly state that a non-Catholic can validly confess to a Catholic priest, who then must provide absolution if the penitent is genuine.
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