What is it?

[ptisme]

yes it’s OK

1. Was Peter given supremacy over the other apostles?
   OK, I’m sure you’ve heard the first part: In Matt 16, Jesus asks Peter: “Who do you say that I am?”. Peter responds: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:13-19).

Peter’s understanding that Jesus was the Son of God did not come from working it out on his own; God the Father infused this revelation into Peter’s mind thus imprinting His seal of approval upon the humble fisherman. In turn, Jesus recognized that Simon had already been anointed by His Father in this way, and He declared, “Blessed are you” because the Father had already blessed Simon with knowledge of the Son. Speaking in His native tongue, Aramaic, Jesus gave Simon a new name, “Kepha”, the Aramaic word that means “rock”. Jesus declared, “You are kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.”

Although Jesus spoke Aramaic, the New Testament was written in Greek, and “Kepha” would have been translated into the Greek words for “rock” which are “petra” or “petros”. “Petra” is the feminine form of the masculine word, “petros”, and obviously, “petros” is the more suitable form for a man’s name. From “petros” we derive the English name, “Peter”. For us modern readers then, Jesus’ pronouncement reads, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church”, but we must never lose sight of the fact that in the original language used by Jesus, Simon is clearly identified as the rock upon which the Church would be built by Jesus. Jesus announced His intention to establish His Church (singular – not “churches” plural) and His choice of Peter as its leader.

What is it about Peter’s character that caused Jesus to compare him to something as solid as rock? Isn’t this the same Peter who Jesus called “Satan” just a few verses later? (cf. Mt 16:23) Isn’t this the same Peter who would deny the Lord three times after his arrest? (cf. Lk 22:34) Surely this unstable character is anything but solid rock upon which a Church could be built; yet, Jesus sees something deeper in Peter’s character, and His choice would be vindicated when Peter ultimately received a martyr’s crown via crucifixion.
Matthew also tells us that Jesus gave Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven”. In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command (known as the royal steward) who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. The prophet Isaiah confirms this:
Isaiah 22:22
"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”
In the passage above, God is speaking, and He confirms the existence of the office, the key, and the continuation of the office despite the change of office holder. In other words, the office of the royal steward continued even when the man who held the office died or was replaced by someone else.

How does this relate to what we have learned from Matthew? In the New Testament, we learn that Jesus inherits the throne of his father, David.
Luke 1:31–33
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.
Thus, we know that Jesus is a king who will reign forever. Matthew tells us that that King Jesus named Peter as His royal steward and gave him the “**keys to the kingdom of heaven" **as the symbol of his authority to speak in His name. Since Jesus is an eternal king, the office of royal steward in His kingdom will never end. Although Peter died as a martyr (as Jesus foretold), the successors of Peter have taken his place in the eternal office of royal steward that Jesus established in His royal court.

In addition to the reference to a key or keys, note the following parallels:
"What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Is. 22:22)

"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Mt. 16:19)
Jesus was thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, and He intentionally referenced the passage from Isaiah when He appointed Peter as His royal steward. Peter received authority from Jesus to speak in His name, and to do so faithfully, Peter must not teach error. Therefore, Peter (and his successors who are the leaders of Jesus’ Church) are protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals. This is called “infallibility”.

Thus, the Church must either be prevented from teaching error in order that God may ratify its decisions in heaven or the Church must be proclaiming here below those things that are already true in heaven. Either way, the decisions and actions of the Church can be seen to be infallible with regard to matters of faith and morals. Anything less would make Jesus a liar for He also declared, “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13) and “I am with you always till the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)

Cont.

 

[ptisme]

cont.
In conclusion, we have seen that Matthew has packed an incredible amount of information into one brief passage. We know that Jesus promised that He Himself would build a single Church with Peter as the rock upon which that Church would be built, that the office of head of the Church would be eternal, and that the Church itself must be protected from ever teaching error.Jesus reveals the infallible nature of the Church when he declares, “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." What does this curious passage mean? There are two possible interpretations.

First, if God reciprocates the binding and loosing of Church on earth with an identical binding or loosing in heaven, then the binding and loosing done on earth must of necessity be free from all error. If this were not so, God would have put Himself in the impossible situation of having to affirm that which is not true whenever the Church taught error.

A second interpretation would be that the authority of the church is to carry out the will and decisions of God upon earth as they have been established in heaven. This is in perfect accord with the way Jesus instructed us to pray: “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10).

 

[God_I_Love]

I could probably write a book about what’s keeping me from returning to the Catholic Church. Maybe I will one day.

The shortest answer though is the Word of God. Never once after reading the Scripture do I regret or doubt my decision to leave Catholicism. In fact, the more I read and the more I learn from God’s Word the more amazed and overwhelmed I am by His Glory, His magnificence, and His wonderful love. What depth and truth there is to be found in His Word! I love reading the Bible and getting to know Him better and better each time.

My dad bought my husband and I a copy of Scott Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home** and I wrote a 20 page essay in response to it. When Scott and Kimberley talk of leaving their Presbyterian church they talk about the ‘dreams’ they would lose if they were to become Catholic. I write partly in response to that. It’s a bit long, but I think it explains my reasons well.

I’ll probably be cited for ‘contempt for Catholicism’ for that. But I can assure you that my heart is not filled with contempt, but rather grief and sadness. I have a heart that is broken for Catholics, and I pray for my Catholic family and friends, and even the member of this forum regularly.

I would say a more thorough understanding will reveal the Catholic Church carries the Truth. However that does not mean all interpretations by them have a full understanding of the doctrine. Protestants have better understanding yet are subject to err as they are not being led by Peter. I’m glad you are allowing the HS room to grow in your life and understanding.

 

[Randy_Carson]

And I’m just supposed to believe you can see the future??

No, but you can be confident that both of us can see the past wherein billions of people from every race and tongue and tribe have found their spiritual home within the Catholic Church for 2,000 years.

 

[Lucy107]

No, but you can be confident that both of us can see the past wherein billions of people from every race and tongue and tribe have found their spiritual home within the Catholic Church for 2,000 years.

Not at all.
My mother didn’t. Many others didn’t.

 

[gachristian]

My friend God can make “good” out of anything

But because God is ONE, one God can have only One set of Faith beliefs, which is why He founded only One Church. Today’s Catholic Church.

I’m not sure what “good” your speaking of; BUT if it’s saving Souls, I’m for it.

While this remains a possibility outside of the Catholic Church; it is nevertheless highly conditional.

Salvation can only take place as God Himself has ordained. Amen:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

As usual, I have tried to read all the comments, but don’t have time to read and/or answer all of them. Although I can appreciate I find it difficult to go back to the Catholic Church, because of many things that I have expressed before. One thing that does bother me is the “faith and works.” I keep reading over and over that although the Catholic doctrine believes that Jesus is paid the price for our sins, it also adds to faith in Jesus’ atonement to sin with additional works.

Galatians 2:16-21 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Being outside the Catholic Church has nothing to do with salvation. It is a person’s faith and relationship with Jesus that matters.

 

[PJM]

=Lucy107;12763167]The advice you praise here - have you any idea how foreign it is to some people? Most of those points I can do nothing with.

You ask in the OP why people don’t become Catholic. One reason is because they get advice they don’t understand and can’t implement. And if they point this out, chances are the advice-giver is going to knock them down.

I’ve listened to his reading of the Gospel of Matthew.

So my friend, IF you will be more specific so can I

I have suggest several times here a path to enlighten you [and anyone else interested] through my TOTALLY FREE OF ALL COST home study e-mailed course.

Simply complaining about it is NOT going to do you, me or anyone any good.

You remain in my prayers,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Randy Carson;12763359]I didn’t have any problem. Neither did hundreds of members of this forum. What I would agree with you on, however, is this: In the Protestant churches, about all that is necessary to join a church is to walk down the aisle during an altar call or to fill out a card in the pew and drop it in the collection plate. That’s not much different from a Las Vegas wedding between two people who just met on Friday night.

Catholicism is different in that it views the commitment to joining (and to marriage, btw) as a life-time commitment. This takes preparation and consideration…not something to be rushed.

When I attend mass, I’ve never had the feeling that I’m carrying a little sign over my head that says “Convert” on it.

If you read the books written by converts like Scott Hahn, Steven Ray or the accounts in Patrick Madrid’s “Surprised by Truth” volumes 1-3, you will discover that in many respects, your background might actually put you AHEAD of many Catholics - especially in the area of scripture study which Catholics are often not very good at.

Not true. You’ll do fine.

THANKS randy:thumbsup:

 

[adamhovey1988]

As usual, I have tried to read all the comments, but don’t have time to read and/or answer all of them. Although I can appreciate I find it difficult to go back to the Catholic Church, because of many things that I have expressed before. One thing that does bother me is the “faith and works.” I keep reading over and over that although the Catholic doctrine believes that Jesus is paid the price for our sins, it also adds to faith in Jesus’ atonement to sin with additional works.

Galatians 2:16-21 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Being outside the Catholic Church has nothing to do with salvation. It is a person’s faith and relationship with Jesus that matters.

You know what? Stop it! Stop picking parts of the Bible and not others. James 2:14-26, read the WHOLE thing. We don’t do ANY verses in the Bible, because the Church cannot contradict the Bible. You are cherry-picking verses as an excuse to commit heresy. So did Arius. So did Nestorius. So did Luther. So did Calvin.

 

[Lucy107]

So my friend, IF you will be more specific so can I

I thought I was specific enough.

I have suggest several times here a path to enlighten you [and anyone else interested] through my TOTALLY FREE OF ALL COST home study e-mailed course.

For this course, do we have to think you are as good as God?

Simply complaining about it is NOT going to do you, me or anyone any good.

I wasn’t complaining. I replied to your OP.

 

[jlhargus]

Didn’t the OP suggest why I’m here? The Holy Spirit’s leading according to them.

I don’t believe the Word of God came from the current Church of Rome as you are implying.

Can you imagine the Pharisees and scribes used that argument against Jesus and His disciples every time they appealed to the authority of Scripture? (The OT is quoted at least 295 times in the NT) “Did you ever wonder where you got the Word of God?” What do you think Jesus and his disciples would have answered?

They would have said the OT scriptures were gathered and handed on (traditioned) by the one people God sent.

You received your OT through books from Pharisee tradition established after Christ. You received your NT books from that one sent apostolic fellowship sent to teach the whole world till the end, Mt28:16-20, the Catholic Church.

 

[SteveVH]

Sorry, but this is singularly illogical, a fallacy of the excluded middle: there is no causal necessity between the Catholic Church being preserved inviolate and the canon of Scripture being preserved inviolate. A God who can create the universe, raise the dead, and put up with us is definitely capable of preserving Scripture from tampering.

Well, you will get no argument from me against God being capable of preserving Scripture from tampering. That is a Catholic claim, based upon Christ’s promises to his Church. The question is, how did he do this? We believe it is a gift which we refer to as “infallibility”. You cannot rationally claim that the Church went off the rails in everything except for its choosing of the sacred texts that would make up the canon of Scripture. The authority that tells us that we must be Baptized, confess our sins to a priest and pray for the dead is the same authority that determined that Hebrews should be included in the canon of Scripture. There is no logical basis for denying one and accepting the other.

 

[PJM]

=JoshuaNY;12763961]Thank you for your responses. No, it was not a Catholic Confession. Some Lutheran Pastors offer personal confessions. I went to my churchs Pastor for that.

It is my understanding that works are required along with faith??

We see one Church as all of Christendom.

We do not believe that we are free of sin, but that Faith in Christ is what leads to our salvation. We sin and do ask forgiveness. We say those exact words during worship.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

REPLY:

It is my understanding that works are required along with faith??

John 13:34 “A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” … This is not an “option” but a God given Command.

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” … WHY is this? Because it gets to the very core, the heart of why God Created man in His Own Image: Gen. 1:26-27 while recognizing that in all of creation, only man has the ability to Know of God, and then accept the graces to actually KNOW God, and therefore to come to love, obey and serve Him, as He desires and demands that we do. Salvation must be as God desires, not as recent men [proudly] demand that God accept their ways, and methods, and thus negating God’s plan for man’s salvation. Which is a summary of what Protestantism really does.

We see one Church as all of Christendom

Again in a limited sense you are again correct. What is this limited sense?

Protestant relationship to “Thee Church” [Singular], that Christ desired and therefore founded might be considered like a stepchild, rather than a “natural” child… still an esteemed position, but not on a par with those in the Catholic Church… Mt. 16: 18-19 “[Because] I say to thee: [Singular] That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,* Singular … as was Yahweh’s “Chosen People.”]* and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. “forever”] And I will give to you [Singular: …all of] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” Command and teach in my name].*

Because there in but One true God, there can be, as is but One true set of faith beliefs, and only One Church as Christ Himself intended. God could not have waited more than a thousand years to make his Faith know. Nor can He fully accept other man-made versions of it. Amen

Also just for the record; the Sacrament of Confession, unlike Christian Baptism is not valid sacramentallly outside of the those churches without having maintained direct Apostolic Succession…

God Bless you,
Patrick*

 

[PJM]

]Why am I not Catholic? (at least yet)

REPLY IN TWO POST
This is post #1

"

Why am I not Catholic? (at least yet)
The doctrine of justification and salvation. I think Lutheranism is the closest to what the Bible actually teaches.

While closeness to Christ counts; it alone is no substitute for what our Blessed Lord Himself teaches as necessary for salvation.

I know Lutherans are accused of being soft on sin (and not just from Catholics) but that’s not the way it is. I also tend to be more monogeristic. (But not double predestination-NO)

and not OSAS, either. Lutherans believe it IS possible to fall away and lose heaven through unbelief.

Please clarify this position. Unbelief in what specifically? And forgive me if I’m wrong; but is it nor Luther who formulated the doctrines of “Justification?”

Now let me say-there is much I think is wonderful and beautiful about the Catholic Church.

especially her strong pro-life/pro family witness and concern for the poor.

What I DON’T have a problem with that some protestants, do- are the following:
Purgatory- although not in quite the way the Catholics understand it. I believe there are hints in the Bible of a purging, or fire, for believers after death.

Purgatory flows quite naturally out of God’s Mercy, which although powerful, cannot replace or supplant His absolute need for Justice and fairness. The term “purgatory” is a more recent theological term applied by the Church Fathers for our benefit.

Most. Perhaps even all Protestants lack a right understanding of the nature of sin 1 John 1:8-10 & 1 John 5: 16-17. And very often the manner taught as acceptable to God for its forgiveness. John 20:19-23…. All sin accrue a hidden debt, that we term “Temporal Punishment”, which God’s Justice attaches to all sin because all sin has a “public nature” meaning it affects others, thee Church and even the world in which we live. This debt, which exist even after a valid Sacramental Confession, MUST be repaid in full, to make ones’ Soul “perfect” which is necessary for the Beatific Vision: God’s Divine and PERFECT Presence.

Because death is possible without unconfessed and therefore unremitted Mortal sin; BUT having a remaining debt to be repaid for Temporal Punishment; Purgatory is essential to purify otherwise perfect souls and enable them to attain heaven. Purgatory GREATLY increases the number of souls that do attain heaven, but except for Purgatory have to way to “repay” this debt imposed by Christ; and therefore would not be able to ascend to heaven.

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

**1John.3: 2 to 3 **“Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”

1 Cor. 3: 13-14 “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire

Mary and the saints.- Actually I think the Orthodox have the most balanced view of Mary-affording her the honor she deserves on the one hand while avoiding the completely ignoring her the way the Protestants do.

The communion of saints does make some sense to me, but it must be understood the the only mediator between man and God is Jesus.

We mostly agree with this, but do hold that Prayer “to” Mary and the Saints IS beneficial. Yet such prayers are NOT mandated, only recommended as a very good personal piety practice.

It is FAR more accurate to understand that while we Do “pray to”; a fuller understanding is that what we are doing is “PRAYING THROUGH” Mary and the Saints as ALL prayer is intended to END with Christ.

Continued on post #2

 

[PJM]

=Vanny;12763971]Why am I not Catholic? (at least yet)

Post #2 REPLY continued

Mary as Mediatrix of all graces-NO.

Space is limited so if you desire more info on this send me a “PM”

But what we teach and believe is that Mary is NOT the source of Grace; nor does she even determine who gets what and how much: She is granted the privilege by Jesus Her Son to DICTRIBUTE these graces as a means of God’s appreciation for Her exceptional life and many sacrifices.

Catechism of the CC #“969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

Confession to a Priest- not a problem with it at all- but I do have a problem with the teaching that if you have committed a mortal sin- and that can be something that is easier to do than one might think-you may not go to heaven if you can’t make it to confession before you are killed in an accident, say. You are never sure if you have perfect contrition or not.

Please READ 1 John 5:16-17 & John 20:19-23

NO, my fried a Mortal sin is “not easy”. Three conditions must exist:

Be a serious matter

Know that if one does this act that it WILL BE a Mortal sin [There are Intrinsic Evils that ARE always a Mortal sin]

Then DESIRE to do it anyway.

This is a VERY incomplete explanation, again send me a “PM” if you desire more info. Space is limited.

Also I have no problem with the apocryphal books. I’ve read 'em all. Not sure they are inspired Scripture but the above do not keep me from becoming Catholic. I could accept all the above but the doctrine of justification is what keeps me from converting.

I’m unclear by what you mean by this? Please clarify for me. If you mean that the CC teaches salvations needs are different from what Luther; dare I say, invented in the 17th Century along with the Reformation; of course we do. We hold to what Christ actually taught the Apostles. What we hold too today dates back to the Apostles and the founding by Christ of His CC.
As an FYI:

I offer a TOTALLY FREE OF ALL COST HOME STUDY COURSE; “Building Blocks of OUR Cathoic Faith” with e-mailed Lessons weekly.

God Bless you,
Patrick [PJM]

 

[PJM]

=JoshuaNY;12764006]Lutherans do not profess “personal savior” as you put it. You mention it attempts to tell God how He will save us. It does the exact opposite. We put our Faith in God and He decides what happens to us. It is out of our hands. Yes we confess our sins, but we consider them wholly forgiven.

OK THANKS,

But I suggest putting your faith in God in the invented in the 12th to 17th Centuries and made famous by Martin Luther is a man-made faith; and does not align with what Christ taught, desired and accepts as the “NORMAL = His Way” for salivation.

And while you confess your sins IF it is not as Christ commanded it needs to be; there is GRAVE reason for concern

Duet. 30: 10-20 “if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

I would also point out that Confession “to Christ Priest” was no new invention; but only an expnasion and perfection of OT practices

**Lev.5: 13 **“Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

Lev.4: 20,26, 31 “Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. …] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. …And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

Its something to PRAY and thing about my friend:thumbsup:

Continued Blessings,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Vanny;12764063]OOps forgot to include it-I like the Pope and respect him as the Bishop of Rome but right maybe my views are more Eastern orthodox on that one. Don’t believe in Papal Infallibily, no.

OK, so here’s a short lesson on it Space being limited.

Mt. 10:1-8 “And having called his twelve disciples [Apostles] together,*** he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. *** And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, … These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And [YOU] going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give.”

Mt. 16:18-19 "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, [Singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the [all of] keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

John 17: 18-20 "As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. **[With God’s actual but limited Powers] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me"

Now compare the Mandate in Mt. 10 to this change in Mk. 16: 14-15 & Mt. 28: 16-20 "And the eleven disciples [Apostles] went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: Going ** [YOU]** therefore,** teach ye all nations; **baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

So at the last moment Christ changed the Mandate from “Only the Jews” to the Entire World and this instituted by necessity Apostolic Succession.

Further He Specified even in the KJB, THEM directly, precisely and exclusively.

In Order to ASSURE the absolute need for HIS TRUTH; Christ promises to remain with THEM [directly and exclusively in this context] and EVEN gives Himself as the Personal warrant of this TRUTH as shown in the John passage above.

This is the short version let me know if you’d like more?

God Bless you,

Patrick**

 

[PJM]

=ptisme;12764116]OK, I think it’s going to be important for us to cover the Pope/ Magisterium before going on to any other topics… Later today I’ll give you my pitch on this topic. Is that OK?

CAUTION PLEASE

Terming God’s TRUTH as a “pitch” lessons its true merit and worth in my opinion:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

=Vanny;12764262]Hi ptisme I’ll give you the short answer as to what I already know- as I’m on my lunch break.
I already know that papal infallibility is a very limited doctrine.
For example, if the Pope says the sky is green or evolution is true, Catholics don’t have to believe him.
It is faith and morals only. And he can’t override what has already been set as doctrine-either.
But-at this point-not sure I agree with it.

I have know problem with Sacred Tradition, either, but :twocents:Scripture must take precedence.

Scripture would not even exist were in not for Sacred Tradition.

The Bible is a Catholic Book, assembled the OT and Catholics Authored the entire NT:thumbsup:

2 Thessalonians 3:6 “And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us”

And Infallibility applies to Official Teachings on ONLY Faith to be believed and Moral Teachings matters:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=ptisme;12765015]OK, First off here’s what we believe re the Pope:

1. We believe the Church consists of all Christians (alive and dead). The head of the church is Christ. (I believe we are in agreement here so I will leave this topic for now until we discuss Purgatory).
2. God knows we are weak and tend to wonder. Whether it be the Patriarchs, the Judges or the Kings et al in the OT, he has always kept a human shepherd here on earth to tend to his flock. Why would he stop? This is where we will start.
3. As the human representative of the Church on earth, the Pope has the power to speak from the chair of our first Pope: St. Peter. We call this speaking Ex Cathedra. This means that on matters of scripture and morals, the Pope (as our shepherd on earth) can speak infallibly. This hasn’t been done since 1950 so it’s rare. When the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra it MUST NOT contradict Sacred Scripture!
4. We do not consider the Pope to be infallible! He is a human and as such can sin and say things that are incorrect, just as anyone else. We certainly know Peter was not perfect. The purpose of this office is to ensure the Church does not fall into error and false teaching. This for instance is the reason why Gay Marriage and abortion will never be accepted by the Catholic Church. It’s why the Catholic Church still teaches that birth control is immoral. All Christian churches were in unison on this until the sexual revolution in the early part of the last century. All right, on to specifics with scriptural quotes next

I was hoping to be able to pass this up, BUT

All Christian Are not equal in the eyes of God

One God, founded ONLY One Church Mt. 16:18-19 and has just One set of faith beliefs
Eph. 4:1-7 and the CC alone was give the direct mandate to teach Christ Faith, Mt. 16:18-20

The Pope, the Magisterium and even the Bishops who speak “in communion” [agree with] the Pope ALL Speak Infallibility on BOTH and only 1. Faith belief issues and 2. Moral Teachings.

God Bless you,

Patrick