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KP3243
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Even Atheists can understand Catholicism better than some Catholics, Penn Jillette schools Piers Morgan who is a Catholic in this. m.youtube.com/watch?v=SsqzCDaS5uI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DSsqzCDaS5uI
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jimkhong
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I believe it was some technical details regarding the ordinariate, some limitations imposed of some sort.
Why did ALCC emerged in the first place? Why didn’t they just join the Catholic Church en masse?
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Nine_Two
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We’ve united with Protestant groups which lacked Apostolic Succession before. That isn’t an issue in discussions. We can always give it to them.
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Khalid
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This already played out in the Unitarian Universalist Association (which, presumably, had at least one predecessor organization which was orthodox at some point) and is fast playing out in the sideline Protestant churches, including the liberal Lutherans (who were the ones which signed the Joint Declaration, for the most part), but especially the Episcopalians - the unity comes not from doctrine, but from abandoning doctrine, and having unity in no doctrine (which is then also all doctrines), which is no unity.
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RyanBlack
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Not accepting all of Catholic teaching concerning the Theotokos (which was a problem for me) is a far cry from believing that Catholics worship the Theotokos. Even among the Southern Baptist and Pentecostal circles in which I grew up, I think it is doubtful that most of them still believe that Catholics actually worship the Theotokos. Protestants, in general, have problems with Catholic teaches concerning the Theotokos because they don’t find those teachings explicitly stated in Holy Scripture and they do not understand the role of Sacred Tradition in the articulation of Mariology. Protestants who have a good understanding of the history of the ancient Church have far fewer problems with Mariology. But again, with regard to those Protestants who misunderstand Catholic Mariology, I firmly believe that the numbers of those who actually believe that we worship the Theotokos are far smaller than what they once were, and do not constitute a majority of Protestants.
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Memaw
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Orthodox ( the ones that are in Schism) have valid Holy Orders so naturally they believe the same as Catholics. They are Catholic but just not in union with the Pope. They are not considered Protestant, big difference. Protestant denominations do not have valid Holy Orders so it is impossible for their communion to be the true Body and Blood of Jesus no matter what they believe or how they try to explain it. If someone realizes the vast difference and know and understands and believes the same as Catholic do, then it would be very difficult to understand why they don’t truly become a Catholic, (as did 400,000 Anglicans recently), and want to be in union with Christ’s TRUE Church.
I am not insulting anyone, I am not laughing at anyone, I have NEVER called anyone a liar, and I have every right to join this conversation as anyone else and give my views. Interpreting my statements to suit oneself is deceitful and I stand behind everything I have said. God Bless, Memaw
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Memaw
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Like I said several times, to “know” something and to “believe” something are two different things. And I never once used the word “condemned.” God Bless. Memaw
Memaw,
Transubstantiation is not the reason I am not Catholic. It is not a particular stumbling block for me. To paraphrase Luther, Before I would belong to a communion that believes it is symbolic, I would be Catholic where the real presence is taught, believed and received.
Jon
I actually agree with this to a great degree, which makes the rather new and growing dialogue between the Catholic Church and confessional Lutheran bodies so compelling. The ILC (International Lutheran Council) synods continue to stand by Lutheran doctrine, as much as the Vatican does. Any future agreements between these two parties will actually mean something.
Jon
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KP3243
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We have had different experiences I guess. God Bless!
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Memaw
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To really have the True Presence of Jesus, Body, Blood ,Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist, the Mass must be said by a priest who has the Sacrament of Holy Orders in line with Apostolic Succession. If you would watch “Journey Home” on EWTN, you would see that many protestant ministers are drawn into the Catholic Church because they have come to realize that the Catholic Church has just that. Even many Lutheran Ministers have and why would they leave that denomination if it has the same Real Presence as the Catholic Church. If you have the courage to just go set in a Catholic Church where the true Presence of Jesus resides in the Tabernacle , maybe you would understand what I am trying to say. I would also suggest you talk to one of the priests on CAF, I’m sure they could explain it much better than I seem to be able to do. I didn’t intend to bring out the rudeness in some. God Bless, Memaw
Yes, I understand the Catholic view. It has come to my attention recently, however, that priests who received presbyter ordination prior to the Reformation (Cistercian abbots, for example) were considered to be validly ordained simply because the pope said it was ok.
And some have gone to Orthodoxy. I received the Coming Home Network news letter, so I am well aware of those who choose to become Catholic. None of that means that our orders and sacraments are not valid. They are.
I’ve done that often, and have a good friend who is a priest. I really do think I have a decent grasp on Catholic understanding and teaching regarding the Eucharist, Memaw.
As I said, sacramental theology in general, and Eucharistic theology in particular, are not stumbling blocks for me.
Sometimes it is difficult to read the expression behind the words online. I don’t think anyone, you and me included, intended to be rude.
Jon
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Alizarin
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It amazes me how you consistently keep your cool.
I’ll have to learn to do the same…someday.
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Nine_Two
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What do valid Holy Orders have to do with union between churches?
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RyanBlack
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What comes across as rude, although I’ll take your word that you don’t intend to be rude, is the presumption that Jon doesn’t understand what you are trying to say–it is quite clear that he does. His history of posting shows that he understands Catholic ecclesiology and Catholic sacramental theology very well–probably better than most Catholics. He does not accept the Catholic claims that the Lutheran Church lacks valid Holy Orders, and consequently, a valid celebration of the Eucharist. Rather than saying things like he has no idea what the Catholic Church believes about the Eucharist (a claim which his history of posting shows to carry no weight), and suggesting that he lacks faith, wouldn’t it be better to acknowledge respectfully that there are sincerely held differences of beliefs and hope and pray for unity? As a former Protestant, I assure you that we are not brought into the Church with statements like some of those you’ve made in this thread.
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Memaw
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Everything, if your a Catholic. God Bless Memaw
Well, it can’t mean “everything”, because there are some groups that the Catholic Church recognizes as having valid orders, but they are not in communion with. Which brings me back to my original point; mutual rejection of the pope’s claim to universal jurisdiction is not enough to bring about unity between Lutherans and Orthodoxy. There are other issues.
I think Nine_Two’s point would be that for union to be the case, the assumption is that agreed-upon valid orders has taken place, or would.
Jon
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Nine_Two
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And yet the Catholic Church has united with Protestants who it explicitly doesn’t believe have Holy Orders quite recently (as have we Orthodox).
If there is any doubt about Holy Orders they are easy enough to bestow in the face of unity. All you need is a bishop.
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