What is keeping Orthodox and Lutherans from unifying?

[JonNC]

If your bishop abused his power would that be a good enough reason to start your own church??? Wonder where that would lead?? Seems that has happened before. God Bless, Memaw

If my bishop abused his power, I would first seek justice within the Church, which is exactly what the Reformers did. The Apology of the Augsburg Confession, and the Confession itself, were documents intended in that way.

Jon

 

[pablope]

11177558]

Okay…if he acted as a brute…would you act as a brute too? Or even a bigger brute than him?

Or…would you pray for his humility…and yours…and ask for the grace of the HS to realize his own actions…and yours too…and win the bishop over with charity, wisdom and humility…and continue to pray…and fast…that a shepherd or priest be provided soon by the Almighty?

And don’t you think the HS will not listen to your desire for the sacraments? And should one put trust in one’s own actions? Or should one put the trust in the HS to act accordingly and in God’s own way and time? Would patience here be a virtue…do you think?

Explore the complaints of the evangelical parishes. The candidates for ordination in the Evangelical parishes even put their lives in danger. Who was throwing the tantrums?

Okay…if he acted as a brute…would you act as a brute too? Or even a bigger brute than him?

If the bishop was throwing a tantrum…would you go in a tantrum yourself too?

Or pray and ask for the grace of humility for the bishop?

ISTM the issue here is vastly different than the Reformation era, don’t you think?

But there are parallels…and a point to be learned too…the parish did not throw a tantrum…did not go out on their own to ordain one…and humbly asked for forgiveness.

A priest was eventually provided…and all Black Saturday parties have ceased.

I think in the case of the Reformation era, it was clearly an abuse of power.

If there was an abuse of power…would you then abrogate that power to yourself and use it…that is also abuse of power…in another way…exercising power not granted to you.

I believe the Evangelical parishes acted in the only way they could, in order to provide the people with word and sacrament. It’s sad, indeed, that it came down to that. Hopefully, we can fix it.

Jon

They could have prayed…unceasingly…for God and the HS to act and provide them a shepherd…don’t you think the Almighty would not have heard their prayers?

It’s sad, indeed, that it came down to that. Hopefully, we can fix it.

And how do you think this can be fixed? By continuing to insist a priest exercising the power to bind and loose in ordaining?

 

[JonNC]

Why would we think that both sides did not pray? You know, I used the term temper tantrum because you did. I think it kind of gives us perhaps a taste of how things happen. Our use of terms such as that, however, in a way trivializes not only the events but the sincere faith both sides had.

And don’t you think the HS will not listen to your desire for the sacraments? And should one put trust in one’s own actions? Or should one put the trust in the HS to act accordingly and in God’s own way and time? Would patience here be a virtue…do you think?

Again, I think both sides trusted the Spirit.

Okay…if he acted as a brute…would you act as a brute too? Or even a bigger brute than him?

If the bishop was throwing a tantrum…would you go in a tantrum yourself too?

I think its pretty easy to see how that could happen, both ways. We didn’t live in those times, so it is hard to judge how we would react then. I’d like to think that were we there cooler heads would have prevailed, but who knows.

Or pray and ask for the grace of humility for the bishop?

And for us, as well.

But there are parallels…and a point to be learned too…the parish did not throw a tantrum…did not go out on their own to ordain one…and humbly asked for forgiveness.

Of course, the evangelical parishes didn’t believe they had done anything wrong…to ask for forgiveness for.

If there was an abuse of power…would you then abrogate that power to yourself and use it…that is also abuse of power…in another way…exercising power not granted to you.

While I disagree in principal with the last part, that seems to be what happened.

They could have prayed…unceasingly…for God and the HS to act and provide them a shepherd…don’t you think the Almighty would not have heard their prayers?

Again, whose to say that they (both sides) didn’t?

And how do you think this can be fixed? By continuing to insist a priest exercising the power to bind and loose in ordaining?

how it is fixed, ISTM, is up to the leaders in place. In the meantime, it is important that both communions continue to bind and loose. And pray unceasingly for unity.

Jon

 

[Nine_Two]

Its a scriptural doctrine, not just Lutheran. But the Priesthood of all Believers does not preclude the necessity of a ministerial priesthood, since, 1st, it is scriptural to have presbyters, and 2nd, they carry out the responsibilities of the Church to preach the word and administer the sacraments.

Jon

I would agree with that. This may be digressing a bit but how does it differ from the Catholic position (at the time of the reformation)?

 

[jimmy]

I would agree with that. This may be digressing a bit but how does it differ from the Catholic position (at the time of the reformation)?

I can’t speak of the catholic idea at the time of the reformation, but the priesthood of all believers is the general idea within Catholicism. Lumen Gentium, the document on the Church from Vatican II has a chapter on it.

But another point of discussion would, what is the difference in expression of the concept between Catholic, Orthodox, and Lutheran. In the Orthodox Church where there is a bottom up ecclesiology, there is an obvious expression of it. The whole church is the bearer of the faith and tradition. I think within Catholicism it is associated more with the mediation of Grace by the members of the Church in the lives of others. I am sure this is contained in the Orthodox understanding as well. It has been a while since I have read Lumen Gentium so I can’t recall its explanation. But that is my closest guess at an explanation of the Catholic expression. I don’t know how the Lutherans would explain the expression of the priesthood of all believers.

 

[Khalid]

1. I am not an ECUSA Anglican 2) Our communion follows Orthodoxy much more the west 3) I get tired of the “you did it” silliness both sides were at fault no one was innocent in 1054

Your religion is “Charismatic Episcopalian” - what are you? ACNA? People outside of N America rarely use the term “Episcopalian” in reference to a denomination, where “Anglican” tends to be the most common name. (With the exception of “Episcopal Methodism”.)

Then again I don’t necessarily keep current with all of the names of new denominations, so I may be off the wall.

 

[Khalid]

I have seen on the Journey Home that Anglicans who are not Catholic, seem to think they are Catholics by calling themselves Anglo-Catholics and they believe they are somehow in communion with Rome. It is bizarre and the Englishman who was the convert even said it probably doesn’t make sense to anyone else. Anyone know what that is about?

They believe in something, I forget the name of it, that, in essence, states that there are three equal branches of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that retain orders, succession, etc.: the Roman, the Anglican, and the Eastern, that are not in communion. An Anglican can explain it better than I, I am sure. The idea was rejected by Romans when the Pope ruled that Anglican orders were nonexistent.

 

[Khalid]

If that was the only similarity they had (which it isn’t of course) then I would say they’re hardly similar at all.

Indeed. Muslims and Buddhists also reject the authority of the Pope of Rome.

 

[Khalid]

Our presiding Bishop is Katherine Schorri -at least more orthodox than Bishops Pike or Sponge

More orthodox, maybe, but not a bishop, unless she got a sex-change procedure. (Irony intended.)

Then again, even “more orthodox” isn’t saying much - Spong wasn’t even a theist (one can’t be an atheistic Christian by any reasonable definition, disregarding eminently unreasonable definitions). Taking the idea in my above post a bit further, it’s likely true that the average conservative or orthodox Jew (ignoring reform Jews, which can be decidedly Spongian) or Muslim is more of an orthodox Christian than John Shelby Spong, since the average Jew or Muslim believes both that there is a God and that he has revealed himself to humanity. Spong believed neither, at least without bending the definitions of “God” and “revelation” so far as to break them and empty them of any semantic content.

 

[Khalid]

Indeed!

While the current Papal office still have echoes of some of those dread marks mentioned in our confessions, we pray for the Pope and those in communion with him and thank God for such good examples of Christianity.

Even I have been brought to admit the Papal office (to a degree even as an office, notwithstanding some of the even-worse occupants of it) was in pretty bad shape immediately preceding the Reformation, even notwithstanding the Great Western Schism. At the time, the Pope often acted like a secular prince, and much of the rebellion was carried on as if he were.

But, the Holy Spirit protected the Church from those popes, and raised up a great generation of popes and saints in the early counter-Reformation years.

 

[Khalid]

Article IV of the Confessio Augustana:

I really think it would be helpful for everyone who wants to discuss Lutheranism to read the Lutheran Confessions; they are rather straightforward.

I have a copy of Concodia: The Lutheran Confessions: A Reader’s Edition by Concordia Press, the one in the same series as the Lutheran Study Bible and Lutheran Lectionary, etc., and from that quote, and the context it is in, it seems possible to say,

“A man who is not regularly called can administer the Sacraments, but he can’t administer them licitly,” i.e. he is breaking church order and may even be considered in schism(?) for contradicting the confessions (especially in a quia, and not so much in a quatenus, view), for lack of a better word, but still otherwise orthodox and able to confect the Eucharist, since it comes from God.*

Which would say that yes, one could have a private Eucharist that would be valid (e.g. actually confected, real presence, etc.), but illicit or against canonical regulation. Although the valid-licit distinction may be something more unique to Catholicism than I recognize, and not held, or understood in the same way, by Lutherans.

Although in the Lutheran Confessions I find a quia subscription difficult if only because of Melanchthon’s “Power and Primacy”, which is so obviously historically-conditioned and, at times, tendentious. On a quatenus view, one could reject the “Power and Primacy”, but, taking the quatenus view to its logical conclusion, the most Ultramontane Catholic or the most Congregationalist Dissenter could both subscribe to them, “insofar as they agree” with whatever they already believe.

*At the very least, “wherever two or three are gathered together”, so, with the normata/normans distinction, at least a father could validly confect an illicit Eucharist for his family, since there are “two or three” gathered there, if one was to norm Article IV by those dominical words.

 

[Peter_J]

Your religion is “Charismatic Episcopalian” - what are you?

That would suggest …

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Episcopal_Church

 

[Memaw]

If my bishop abused his power, I would first seek justice within the Church, which is exactly what the Reformers did. The Apology of the Augsburg Confession, and the Confession itself, were documents intended in that way.

Jon

And if we don’t get just what we want instantly, then we go start our own church??? And a chain reaction follows. Or should I say chaos follows. Started out with Martin Luther over 500 years ago and today at least 50,000 different Protestant denominations that don’t even agree with each other on many things. I think I will stick with the ORIGINAL Catholic Church, instituted by Jesus Christ with HIS promise that the Gates of Hell will “never” prevail against it, no matter what history does to try to destroy it. The Catholic Church with the Pope at it’s head will be here long after were all gone and it will continue to teach the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE as Jesus said it would. It’s really hard to go against 2,000 years of Catholic History when it has out lived every other government, Heresy and whatever that’s been thrown at it including lies and media fixation. The Catholic Church is the only thing we can solidly count on to be here for us and never change its doctrine to suit modern man and his big ideas. Like Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, “The truth is the TRUTH even if nobody believes it and a lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it.” God Bless, Memaw

 

[JonNC]

It is up to 50,000 now. Last week, I think someone posted it was 30,000. It has been a very active week.

=Memaw;11180224]And if we don’t get just what we want instantly, then we go start our own church???

You mean like one patriarch going off on his own?

And a chain reaction follows. Or should I say chaos follows. Started out with Martin Luther over 500 years ago and today at least 50,000 different Protestant denominations that don’t even agree with each other on many things.

From Martin Luther, and the Lutheran Reformers there is one group - Lutherans - and perhaps one or two other very small groupings. Beyond that, no other group has “splintered off” of Lutheranism. The only “chaos” regarding Lutherans is the “chaos” caused by those who are drifting away from the confessions

I think I will stick with the ORIGINAL Catholic Church, instituted by Jesus Christ with HIS promise that the Gates of Hell will “never” prevail against it, no matter what history does to try to destroy it. The Catholic Church with the Pope at it’s head will be here long after were all gone and it will continue to teach the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE as Jesus said it would. It’s really hard to go against 2,000 years of Catholic History when it has out lived every other government, Heresy and whatever that’s been thrown at it including lies and media fixation. The Catholic Church is the only thing we can solidly count on to be here for us and never change its doctrine to suit modern man and his big ideas. Like Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, “The truth is the TRUTH even if nobody believes it and a lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it.”

You stick with the Catholic Church, Memaw, and may you be blessed there in word and sacrament.

Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is up to 50,000 now. Last week, I think someone posted it was 30,000. It has been a very active week.

Jon…be fair.

The number of distinct Protestant denominations is very, very large, and the lack of doctrinal unity is significant. :sad_yes:

 

[Randy_Carson]

From Martin Luther, and the Lutheran Reformers there is one group - Lutherans - and perhaps one or two other very small groupings. Beyond that, no other group has “splintered off” of Lutheranism. The only “chaos” regarding Lutherans is the “chaos” caused by those who are drifting away from the confessions

Oh?

Lutheran World Federation

Protestant Church of Augsburg Confession of Alsace and Lorraine
Batak Christian Protestant Church (Indonesia)
Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras
Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark)
Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway)
Church of Sweden
Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland)
Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus (EECMY)
Evangelical Church of Augsburg Confession in Poland
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia
Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovenia
Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil
Evangelical Church in the Republic of Croatia
Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bavaria
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Colombia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Church of France
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Guyana
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hanover
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong
Evangelical-Lutheran Church in Hungary
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Russia and Other States
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa (Cape Church)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Suriname
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thailand (ELCT)
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Venezuela
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member)
Evangelical Lutheran State Church of Brunswick
Evangelical Lutheran State Church of Mecklenburg
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church (associate member)
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Lutheran Church in Chile
Lutheran Church in Great Britain
Lutheran Costa Rican Church
Malagasy Lutheran Church (Madagascar)
Mexican Lutheran Church
Nicaraguan Lutheran Church of Faith and Hope
North Elbian Evangelical Church
Lutheran Church in the Philippines
Salvadoran Lutheran Church
Silesian Evangelical Church of Augsburg Confession
United Evangelical Lutheran Church (Argentina, Uruguay)
United and uniting churches with Lutheran roots[edit source | editbeta]
Evangelical Church in Germany
Protestant Church in the Netherlands
Tamil Evangelical Lutheran Church -(TELC) - (India)
International Lutheran Council[edit source | editbeta]

China Evangelical Lutheran Church
Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia
Evangelical Lutheran Church—Synod of France and Belgium
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Argentina
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil
Evangelical Lutheran Church of England
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ghana
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Haiti
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Ingria in Russia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Paraguay
Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Republic of Chile
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Denmark
Free Evangelical Lutheran Synod in South Africa
Gutnius Lutheran Church
Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church
India Evangelical Lutheran Church
Japan Lutheran Church
Lanka Lutheran Church
Lutheran Church—Canada
Lutheran Church—Hong Kong Synod
Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
Lutheran Church in Korea
Lutheran Church in Southern Africa
Lutheran Church in the Philippines
Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member)
Lutheran Church of Guatemala
Lutheran Church of Nigeria
Lutheran Church in Singapore and Malaysia
Lutheran Church of Venezuela
Lutheran Synod of Mexico
American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC)
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference[edit source | editbeta]

All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria - Nigeria
Bulgarian Lutheran Church - Bulgaria
Confessional Lutheran Church (Latvia) - Latvia
Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church (Mexico) - Mexico
Christ the King Lutheran (Nigeria) - Nigeria
Czech Evangelical Lutheran Church - Czech Republic
Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany) - Germany
Evangelical Lutheran Church “Concord” - Russia
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Finland) - Finland
Evangelical Lutheran Confessional Church (Puerto Rico) - Puerto Rico
Evangelical Lutheran Synod (Peru) - Peru
Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Australia - Australia
Gereja Lutheran Indonesia - Indonesia
The Lutheran Church of Cameroon - Cameroon
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference - Malawi
Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference - Zambia
Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway) - Sweden and Norway
Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan) - Japan
Ukrainian Lutheran Church - Ukraine
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States
Evangelical Catholic

Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church
Association of Independent Evangelical Lutheran Churches
Evangelical Catholic Church
Evangelical Marian Catholic Church
Lutheran Episcopal Communion
Lutheran Church-International (formerly International Lutheran Fellowship)
Unaffiliated Lutheran denomination

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Alliance of Renewal Churches (ARC)
American Lutheran Synod (ALS)
Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
Augsburg Lutheran Churches (ALC)
Australian Evangelical Lutheran Church (Australia)
Brotherhood of Popular Pastoral Action - Lutheran Coordination (Panama)
Canadian Association of Lutheran Congregations (Canada)
Chinese Lutheran Brethren Church
China Lutheran Gospel Church
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
Church of the Lutheran Brethren of Chad
Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC)
Concordia Lutheran Church (Sweden)
Concordia Lutheran Conference
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Congo EELC-Brazzaville
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Côte d’Ivoire
Evangelical Lutheran Church on the Faroe Islands
Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Gambia
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Guinea
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Sudan
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Togo
Evangelical Lutheran Conference & Ministerium of North America (ELCM)
Evangelical Lutheran Congregations of the Reformation (Australia)
Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America (ELDoNA)
Evangelical Lutheran Mission (Liberia)
Federation of Lutheran Churches in Middle Germany
Good Samaritan Evangelical Lutheran Church (India)
Iglesia Luterana Sínodo de Nicaragua
Independent Lutheran Diocese - United States
Istanbul Lutheran Church (Turkey)
Japan Lutheran Brethren Church
Kosovo Protestant Evangelical Church
Laestadian Lutheran Church
Laos Evangelical Lutheran Church
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tamil Nadu
Lutheran Alliance of Churches in renovation (ALIA) - Brazil
Lutheran Church of Cameroon
Lutheran Church of Central Africa (Malawi & Zambia)
Lutheran Church of Eritrea
Lutheran Church of Ethiopia
The Lutheran Church of India
Lutheran Church of New Zealand
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation (LCR)
Lutheran Churches of the Reformation in Nigeria
The Lutheran Church of the Republic of China
Lutheran Church of Togo
Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (USA)
Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA
Lutheran Mission in Thailand (LMT)
North American Lutheran Church (US and Canada)
North Western Gossner Evangelical Lutheran Church (India)
Old Apostolic Lutheran Church
Old Lutheran Church (Asia)
Siberian Evangelical Lutheran Church
Tagakaulo Lutheran Church of Christ in the Philippines
United Lutheran Mission Association (ULMA) (USA)

+++

All these groups are 100% united in doctrine?

Wow. Hard to believe.

 

[JonNC]

All these groups are 100% united in doctrine?

Wow. Hard to believe.

I never said that, Randy. Be fair.

If you look at those names, how many of them are synods of national scope. Is that the same site that posts 248 (or some such) distinct Catholic Churches, based on national lines?

I will say this, however. I believe that if I were to present myself to most any of these Lutheran synods parishes to receive the sacrament, I would be welcome at the table.
There may be exceptions, such as WELS, but by and large…

All this said, I am not going to argue the normal (and logical) 5 distinct groups of western non-Catholics, as it really doesn’t matter. We Christians are far too divided, whether it be 30,000, 8, or 3. It is against His call that all may be one, and each of us, all of us, should pray for forgiveness, and for reconciliation of His Church Militant.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I would agree with that. This may be digressing a bit but how does it differ from the Catholic position (at the time of the reformation)?

So much of the talk at the time of the Reformation regarding the priesthood revolved around what the Reformers saw as abuses, be they private masses, the refusal of bishops to ordain our priests, etc., and the reaction of the Reformers (yes, sometimes overreaction, IMO) to these abuses.
Jon

 

[JonNC]

I have a copy of Concodia: The Lutheran Confessions: A Reader’s Edition by Concordia Press, the one in the same series as the Lutheran Study Bible and Lutheran Lectionary, etc., and from that quote, and the context it is in, it seems possible to say,

“A man who is not regularly called can administer the Sacraments, but he can’t administer them licitly,” i.e. he is breaking church order and may even be considered in schism(?) for contradicting the confessions (especially in a quia, and not so much in a quatenus, view), for lack of a better word, but still otherwise orthodox and able to confect the Eucharist, since it comes from God.*

Which would say that yes, one could have a private Eucharist that would be valid (e.g. actually confected, real presence, etc.), but illicit or against canonical regulation. Although the valid-licit distinction may be something more unique to Catholicism than I recognize, and not held, or understood in the same way, by Lutherans.

Although in the Lutheran Confessions I find a quia subscription difficult if only because of Melanchthon’s “Power and Primacy”, which is so obviously historically-conditioned and, at times, tendentious. On a quatenus view, one could reject the “Power and Primacy”, but, taking the quatenus view to its logical conclusion, the most Ultramontane Catholic or the most Congregationalist Dissenter could both subscribe to them, “insofar as they agree” with whatever they already believe.

*At the very least, “wherever two or three are gathered together”, so, with the normata/normans distinction, at least a father could validly confect an illicit Eucharist for his family, since there are “two or three” gathered there, if one was to norm Article IV by those dominical words.

Two points.

1. Perhaps my “Catholic” lean is showing through, but I would not, under any circumstances, even participate in any part of a divine service where someone not ordained attempted to act in persona christi either in the Confession/Holy Absolution portion of worship or in the Eucharist.
2. Regarding quia and the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope remember that the entire condemnation of the papacy is contingent on a particular teaching. If that teaching were to change, or better said, “develop” in a way agreeable to Lutherans, then the condemnations become moot. For example, the second complaint,
   *Secondly, he adds also that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.]. * is already moot.

Jon