What is keeping Orthodox and Lutherans from unifying?

[Khalid]

That would suggest …

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Episcopal_Church

Oh. Never heard of them. If it were a snake it would have bit me. I thought it sounded a bit like “premillenial preterist”.

 

[GKC]

Oh. Never heard of them. If it were a snake it would have bit me. I thought it sounded a bit like “premillenial preterist”.

There was a very scholarly CEC priest who used to post here, years ago. He’s now TC.

GKC

 

[pablope]

[Q11177987]

Welll…obviously one stopped praying…or rather, lost trust in God’s providence.

Do you think disobedience, in any form, of a bishop’s authority to bind and lose and ever justified?

You know, I used the term temper tantrum because you did.

Yes…and I thought you saw the analogy…like when a child asks a parent for something…a piece of candy…and does not get it…and throws a tantrum.

And by extension…when a bishop denies something…and one’s does not like it and goes about doing what the bishop prohibited anyway…that is a temper tantrum.

I think it kind of gives us perhaps a taste of how things happen. Our use of terms such as that, however, in a way trivializes not only the events but the sincere faith both sides had.

But as I asked…is disobedience to a bishop ever justified?

1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

And don’t you think the HS will not listen to your desire for the sacraments? And should one put trust in one’s own actions? Or should one put the trust in the HS to act accordingly and in God’s own way and time? Would patience here be a virtue…do you think?

Again, I think both sides trusted the Spirit.

Or pride got in the way…if one truly trusted and remained steadfast in that trust…would one be so hasty as to throw a temper tantrum?

I think its pretty easy to see how that could happen, both ways. We didn’t live in those times, so it is hard to judge how we would react then. I’d like to think that were we there cooler heads would have prevailed, but who knows.

But as I asked…is disobedience ever to a bishop…ever justifiable…when he exercises his bind and lose authority?

Of course, the evangelical parishes didn’t believe they had done anything wrong…to ask for forgiveness for.

Then pride certainly has set in…and did not realize the need for humbleness to see one’s one failing in the matter.

That is why I asked…Okay…if he acted as a brute…would you act as a brute too? Or even a bigger brute than him?

Or…would you pray for his humility…and yours…and ask for the grace of the HS to realize his own actions…and yours too…and win the bishop over with charity, wisdom and humility…and continue to pray…and fast…that a shepherd or priest be provided soon by the Almighty?

While I disagree in principal with the last part, that seems to be what happened.

So…you are saying…exercising authority…which is akin to abusing power not granted to a layman…is justifiable?

 

[Peter_J]

Welll…obviously one stopped praying…or rather, lost trust in God’s providence.

Maybe they asked God “What should we do?” with the intention of doing the exact opposite of whatever God told them. (I didn’t realize how common that was until I started reading Jack Chick’s treatises.)

 

[Memaw]

Maybe they asked God “What should we do?” with the intention of doing the exact opposite of whatever God told them. (I didn’t realize how common that was until I started reading Jack Chick’s treatises.)

The worst of the worst!. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Maybe they asked God “What should we do?” with the intention of doing the exact opposite of whatever God told them. (I didn’t realize how common that was until I started reading Jack Chick’s treatises.)

The worst of the worst!. God Bless, Memaw

I’d need to be careful of speaking like that because I have been guilty of what Peter posted. Not something to be proud of and definitely a sad spiritual place to be . Christ called us to pray for our enemies, I’ve found that to be the most difficult thing to do…

 

[House_Harkonnen]

There have been a few threads about Papal supremecy and jurisdiction. The Lutheran and Orthodox contingents are untied on this issue. So…what is keeping the Orthodox and Lutheran from uniting? Is it because the roots of Lutherism is from Rome? From reading some very good posts, it appears there is VERY little differences?

I am not really sure. The Orthodox probably would object to the practice of Sola Scriptura. I would be very interested in a discussion between Lutherans and Orthodoxy.

 

[jimmy]

I am not really sure. The Orthodox probably would object to the practice of Sola Scriptura. I would be very interested in a discussion between Lutherans and Orthodoxy.

They do reject it, along with sola fide.

 

[Peter_J]

Maybe they asked God “What should we do?” with the intention of doing the exact opposite of whatever God told them. (I didn’t realize how common that was until I started reading Jack Chick’s treatises.)

Does it go without saying that that was just a little Chick-humor? It’s hard to tell sometimes.

 

[cath4alltime]

Your religion is “Charismatic Episcopalian” - what are you? ACNA? People outside of N America rarely use the term “Episcopalian” in reference to a denomination, where “Anglican” tends to be the most common name. (With the exception of “Episcopal Methodism”.)

Then again I don’t necessarily keep current with all of the names of new denominations, so I may be off the wall.

That is what I am. the church is the CEC or Charismatic Episcopalian Church iccec.org/. Though it would be nice to be the Charismatic Anglican Church Anglican is easier for me to spell

 

[Memaw]

I’d need to be careful of speaking like that because I have been guilty of what Peter posted. Not something to be proud of and definitely a sad spiritual place to be . Christ called us to pray for our enemies, I’ve found that to be the most difficult thing to do…

Christians shouldn’t be enemies in the first place, we should all be seeking the TRUTH as Jesus Christ gave us. God Bless, Memaw

 

[ezeekl]

I think he means in terms of the eucharist.

But which Eucharist, Lutheran or Orthodox? Do the Orthodox accept Lutheran ministers ordination to be as valid as their own? I may be wrong but I do not think that is the case. Apostolic Succession is not just a Western concept. If there is no Apostolic Succession in Lutheranism then their ministers are not empowered to consecrate the Eucharist. I don’t think there is any disagreement about that between the Eastern and Western Churches…

 

[Randy_Carson]

I never said that, Randy. Be fair.

I know you didn’t. I’m simply making the point that there appear to be more than the small number of Lutheran groups that you were suggesting.

If you look at those names, how many of them are synods of national scope. Is that the same site that posts 248 (or some such) distinct Catholic Churches, based on national lines?

Yes, and being conscious of the data argued endlessly in other threads, I did consider that. Still…

I will say this, however. I believe that if I were to present myself to most any of these Lutheran synods parishes to receive the sacrament, I would be welcome at the table.
There may be exceptions, such as WELS, but by and large…

All this said, I am not going to argue the normal (and logical) 5 distinct groups of western non-Catholics, as it really doesn’t matter. We Christians are far too divided, whether it be 30,000, 8, or 3. It is against His call that all may be one, and each of us, all of us, should pray for forgiveness, and for reconciliation of His Church Militant.

Jon

Amen.

 

[Novocastrian]

But which Eucharist, Lutheran or Orthodox? Do the Orthodox accept Lutheran ministers ordination to be as valid as their own? I may be wrong but I do not think that is the case. Apostolic Succession is not just a Western concept. If there is no Apostolic Succession in Lutheranism then their ministers are not empowered to consecrate the Eucharist. I don’t think there is any disagreement about that between the Eastern and Western Churches…

They are similar to an extent. But the Orthodox (correct me if I am wrong, Orthodox brothers and sisters) say that holding the apostolic faith (i.e. Orthodoxy) is necessary for apostolic succession. They don’t have the same categories of valid and licit which Latin discussion of the succession presupposes, and the Orthodox I have spoken to tend to consider Rome to be outside the apostolic succession along with the Protestants.

 

[Memaw]

They are similar to an extent. But the Orthodox (correct me if I am wrong, Orthodox brothers and sisters) say that holding the apostolic faith (i.e. Orthodoxy) is necessary for apostolic succession. They don’t have the same categories of valid and licit which Latin discussion of the succession presupposes, and the Orthodox I have spoken to tend to consider Rome to be outside the apostolic succession along with the Protestants.

Without valid Apostolic Succession, there would be no valid priesthood and consequently no valid Eucharist. No matter how much one wishes it were so. Apostolic Succession is necessary for holding the apostolic faith. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Novocastrian]

Without valid Apostolic Succession, there would be no valid priesthood and consequently no valid Eucharist. No matter how much one wishes it were so. God Bless, Memaw

I don’t think you’re responding to what I wrote. Nothing I wrote contradicted what you assert. I said that the Orthodox think apostolic faith necessary for the succession, not sufficient.

 

[Memaw]

I’d need to be careful of speaking like that because I have been guilty of what Peter posted. Not something to be proud of and definitely a sad spiritual place to be . Christ called us to pray for our enemies, I’ve found that to be the most difficult thing to do…

I have read some of Jack Chick’s tracts and they are terrible beyond words. I can pray for him and those associated with him, and I do!, but I still can see the tracts for what they are. Love the sinner, hate the sin thing. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Peter_J]

But which Eucharist, Lutheran or Orthodox? Do the Orthodox accept Lutheran ministers ordination to be as valid as their own?

Orthodox don’t recognize the orders of Lutheran, Catholic, Anglicans, etc. priests. (I don’t know if that helps, I lost track of the reason you were asking.)

 

[Memaw]

Orthodox don’t recognize the orders of Lutheran, Catholic, Anglicans, etc. priests. (I don’t know if that helps, I lost track of the reason you were asking.)

I think they recognize the Holy Orders of Catholics!, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Novocastrian]

I think they recognize the Holy Orders of Catholics!, God Bless, Memaw

With regard to the Russian Church, at least, it would appear that we are both wrong. The basic position seems to be that there are no truly assured orders outside the Orthodox Church, but that non-Orthodox clergy may sometimes, at the discretion of the Orthodox episcopate, be received by vesting rather than by re-ordination.

orthodoxanswers.org/answer/1276/

I do not know how they currently treat non-Roman western clergy, but I do know that the Romanian Orthodox Church officially recognised the orders of the Church of England in 1937 during the archiepiscopate of Cosmo Lang.