What is keeping the Anglicans and Lutherans from unifying?

[Peter_J]

However, the issue of the filioque has been enough to drive a wedge between Catholics and Orthodox, so I don’t doubt that one side or the other will find something to justify remaining autonomous.

Well, I’d say there are other issues as well; but more importantly let me ask you, as a Catholic: In what way – if at all – do you believe that we (Catholics) need to justify remaining as we are?

 

[pablope]

Boiling this down, it says, “the formula “sola scriptura” was always intended to point to 1) God’s revelation, 2) Jesus, and therefore to 3) the holy Tradition of the church”.

Luther always intended sola scriptura to point to the Tradition of the Church?

Now, how the heck did all those theologians miss that little detail 500 years ago? And if true, then exactly what was Luther ranting about?

:ehh:

And where did Luther actually say the above?

I have asked our Lutheran brethen on here to provide Luther’s own words describing what SS is…and so far…no one has provided Luther’s owns words describing really what SS is…according to Luther. It seems it was a development of practice…or doctrine…or principle…whatever Lutherans want to call it.

 

[JonNC]

Let me prefix this by saying that I’m not a Lutheran.

Sola Scriptura does not entail the rejection of all tradition. It says that the measure of tradition should be Scripture. If Luther or other reformers had rejected all tradition, then they would have rejected infant baptism. The staunch resistance to this on the part of Luther and Calvin suggests that some traditions of the Church were considered to be catholic and evangelical in the light of the Scriptures.

I wouldn’t view infant Baptism as Tradition. It is quite scriptural. But I understand what you were trying to say.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

And where did Luther actually say the above?

I have asked our Lutheran brethen on here to provide Luther’s own words describing what SS is…and so far…no one has provided Luther’s owns words describing really what SS is…according to Luther. It seems it was a development of practice…or doctrine…or principle…whatever Lutherans want to call it.

Mainly because Luther’s words aren’t the important point. The Lutheran Confessions are. And in those confessions we see precisely what those Lutheran theologians were talking about.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

…no one has provided Luther’s owns words describing really what SS is…according to Luther.

I’m not entirely sure why they *would *provide that.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, I’d say there are other issues as well; but more importantly let me ask you, as a Catholic: In what way – if at all – do you believe that we (Catholics) need to justify remaining as we are?

This sounds like a question worth answering…but I’m not sure I understand it.

Could you rephrase it?

 

[pablope]

Mainly because Luther’s words aren’t the important point. The Lutheran Confessions are. And in those confessions we see precisely what those Lutheran theologians were talking about.

Jon

But Jon…Luther’s actions and words…his teachings…were the basis for the confessions, or the main basis, was it not?

If Luther did not teach SS…so where did the Lutherans get this from?

 

[pablope]

I’m not entirely sure why they *would *provide that.

Because Lutherans claim to have the correct interpretation or definition of what SS is…and since the root, as far as I know is Luther…would you not expect Luther to have defined what it is?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Mainly because Luther’s words aren’t the important point. The Lutheran Confessions are. And in those confessions we see precisely what those Lutheran theologians were talking about.

Jon

So, forgetting Luther (and there is a lot that is easily worth forgetting), Lutheran theologians suggest that sola scriptura points to Tradition?

How so? What does this mean in plain English, Jon?

And if sola fide has been reconciled with Catholicism and sola scriptura points to Tradition (though I suspect you will say that it is the final judge of Tradition), then what continues to justify the wound in the Body of Christ?

Universal Jurisdiction? I’m not sure three people in your congregation or mine could define it accurately. I’m not sure I could.

C’mon…I’m not buying it. :nope:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Mainly because Luther’s words aren’t the important point. The Lutheran Confessions are.

And by the way…

EVERY WORD spoken by the One who founded my Church is important to me…and to you, as well.

Yet, you have no qualms about discarding Luther without a moment of regret.

Seriously, how do you sleep at night?

 

[benjohnson]

But Jon…Luther’s actions and words…his teachings…were the basis for the confessions, or the main basis, was it not?

The Lutheran Confessions are an interesting document - you can see the politics of the time in them, but even given that, they’re based on sound biblical understanding more than anything else. It’s why Lutherans say that the Confessions reflect scripture.

Frankly, they’re not a distillation of Luther’s ramblings. They are the calm, collected, biblical and faithful reasoning of the church at a time when some leaders were promulgating teaching contrary to the faith.

If Luther did not teach SS…so where did the Lutherans get this from?

That the word of God trumps the words and traditions of Man is not novel - it’s the basis of at least my faith in that I can accept the Gospel and the amazing promises made by Him on the Cross.

 

[Peter_J]

let me ask you, as a Catholic: In what way – if at all – do you believe that we (Catholics) need to justify remaining as we are?

Well, putting it another way how would you yourself answer this question you asked this afternoon:

And if sola fide has been reconciled with Catholicism and sola scriptura points to Tradition (though I suspect you will say that it is the final judge of Tradition), then what continues to justify the wound in the Body of Christ?

Universal Jurisdiction? I’m not sure three people in your congregation or mine could define it accurately. I’m not sure I could.

C’mon…I’m not buying it. :nope:

? (I mean “answer” in a broad sense of the word, e.g. including such “answers” as “That’s not a legitimate question.”)

 

[Novocastrian]

And by the way…

EVERY WORD spoken by the One who founded my Church is important to me…and to you, as well.

Yet, you have no qualms about discarding Luther without a moment of regret.

Seriously, how do you sleep at night?

Presumably you know the answer. The Lutheran will say that his Church (not necessarily exclusive of yours) was founded by Jesus Christ, and that His words are far more important to Lutherans than Martin Luther’s own. That Luther’s words are listened to when they accord with Christ’s, and discarded when they do not.

 

[Novocastrian]

I wouldn’t view infant Baptism as Tradition. It is quite scriptural. But I understand what you were trying to say.

Jon

Well quite, and I agree with you. The example came to mind because there was briefly some debate within earliest Lutheranism about whether or not it was Scriptural, etc., with Melanchthon needing to be convinced by Luther.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Anglicans and Lutherans will never unite. Lutherans are beer drinkers. Anglicans are scotch drinkers.

Well, some Lutherans drink schnapps too, but you would never find an Anglican doing that.

 

[Novocastrian]

The Anglicans and Lutherans will never unite. Lutherans are beer drinkers. Anglicans are scotch drinkers.

You should probably visit the UK and reconsider!

 

[Ridgerunner]

You should probably visit the UK and reconsider!

Drinking warm beer doesn’t count.

 

[Novocastrian]

Drinking warm beer doesn’t count.

Of course there are some of us who, in the spirit of fraternal charity and unity, will drink a few of each. For ecumenism, of course.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As mentioned before, the relationship of full communion and merged parishes between Anglicans/ Episcopalians and Lutherans is unlike any other Christian bodies, to my knowledge. A google search of united parishes in north America reveals significant consolidation of Anglicans and Lutherans that includes integrated episcopal oversight and ministry. Historically, Lutherans and Episcopalians have had similar unification going back to the 1700’s . The eventual incorporation of Episcopal and Lutheran dioceses/ synods is quite likely in the U.S.

 

[JonNC]

But Jon…Luther’s actions and words…his teachings…were the basis for the confessions, or the main basis, was it not?

If Luther did not teach SS…so where did the Lutherans get this from?

Luther wrote volumes and volumes. I don’t own the complete Luther’s Works. But in the Solid Declaration, of the Formula of Concord, this:

…Dr. Luther himself in the Latin preface to his published works has given necessary and Christian admonition concerning his writings, and has expressly drawn this distinction namely, that the Word of God alone should be and remain the only standard and rule of doctrine, to which the writings of no man should be regarded as equal, but to which everything should be subjected.

I have no reason to dispute Chemnitz and the others.

Jon