What is man's incentive to marry?

[EasterJoy]

That is irrelevant to whether the practical consequences of premarital sex are greater for men or for women.

Through their choice to have premarital sex, a woman can get a man’s child and the earning power to help raise the child without marrying him. She can also abort his child without his consent. The stigma on her for doing this is vanishing in many places…and, in fact, she can get the esteem she actually does deserve if she does her best to be a good mother in spite of making a decision that forced her child into a broken home. That is a practical consequence that did not used to exist. If you are talking to a fellow in that position, I don’t think he’d be consoled by the thought that “her consequences are greater than yours.” It depends on who’s measuring, and it depends on the situation. They both have a LOT to lose by engaging in sex outside the intended life-long protection of a faithful marital bond. Guys don’t think about that, but they have a lot to lose by failing to marry their partners before starting a sexual relationship.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

The better question is this: Why would a man not want this, except that he has no physical attraction for women or that some other vocation calls him to something even greater?

Answer: There is no woman who enkindles in him a belief in the fidelity and unswaying affection necessary for him to put his faith into this enterprise.

IOW: The men don’t believe in marriage as an alternative to a life alone are most likely to be that way because they are afraid that fidelity is not possible or that its results are not as good as they are…either that in spite of whatever intentions they have, they fear they can’t do it, that because of the glamour of evil they fear they will regret having done it, or that the extent of infidelity in the world is so great that they do not believe they will be able to tell whether a potential spouse will do it.

No faith in both the real likelihood and profound value of true marital fidelity → no faith in marriage.

I would agree that is the better question. But I have no idea why a man would not want that. My problem is that from what I see and understand, I gather men do not want that.

I have two “uncles” that never married my aunts. Both aunts are what one would describe as working independent women. These men have been their live in boyfriends for years and they do not plan to ever marry. They do not need to.

One of them I do know has cheated on one of my aunts. She took him back, pretty much without any huge ordeal, and so I feel that the cheating has occurred more than once and she’s just grown accustomed to it.

Both of my aunts dote on their boyfriends and cook, clean and do everything a wife would do for her husband- albeit not in a June Cleaver sort of way, but still, the point is they make the relationship work.

None of these things that you mention are of any incentive for either one of my “uncles” to marry one of my aunts. It seems that marriage is entirely a religious concept and that if a man is not religious then the concept is not relevant to their lives at all.

Maybe another better question would be why are so many men becoming agnostic?

By the way, I should state that I do love my “uncles”. I just don’t like how they are treating my aunts by not offering marriage. Both my aunts would say they are Christian.

Seeing all this type of behavior and growing up with it really gives me a impression that nothing really matters.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I would agree that is the better question. But I have no idea why a man would not want that. My problem is that from what I see and understand, I gather men do not want that.

I have two “uncles” that never married my aunts. Both aunts are what one would describe as working independent women. These men have been their live in boyfriends for years and they do not plan to ever marry. They do not need to.

One of them I do know has cheated on one of my aunts. She took him back, pretty much without any huge ordeal, and so I feel that the cheating has occurred more than once and she’s just grown accustomed to it.

Both of my aunts dote on their boyfriends and cook, clean and do everything a wife would do for her husband- albeit not in a June Cleaver sort of way, but still, the point is they make the relationship work.

None of these things that you mention are of any incentive for either one of my “uncles” to marry one of my aunts. It seems that marriage is entirely a religious concept and that if a man is not religious then the concept is not relevant to their lives at all.

Maybe another better question would be why are so many men becoming agnostic?

By the way, I should state that I do love my “uncles”. I just don’t like how they are treating my aunts by not offering marriage. Both my aunts would say they are Christian.

Seeing all this type of behavior and growing up with it really gives me a impression that nothing really matters.

I don’t like that assumption, and your aunts and uncles might not either. You assume that they are not offering marriage to their partners, but you don’t know if that’s the case. Your aunts may not want to get married; they may not see the point. The couples may have agreed from the beginning that marriage isn’t something they want. They may privately reevaluate this and come to the same conclusion. You have no way of knowing what happens privately in their relationships and what agreements they come to.

It is not always the case with long term couples that the woman is just hanging on for marriage and the man is holding back.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

AnneElizabeth, please think about this reply carefully. It is the job of both husband and wife to do what is best for their family in their particular situation, no matter what that means. When I get married later on this year I will be working as will my husband. I am also working on certification that will help me become more employable in the future and make an effort throughout my marriage to keep that certification current and keep myself employable, that way, whenever something happens and it becomes necessary for the good of my family that I work I will be able to. By so doing I am not showing any disrespect to my fiance, I am working with him in the way we believe will be best for our future family. We both agree that it is good for me to be able to work when needed, it is not something that divides us in any way but is rather part and parcel of our joint effort to create a new family together.

(cont…)

I agree, thanks. I have been pondering over all these posts.

I’m still not entirely clear on how a man leads or is the head of the couple. But I agree with you that it is and should be a joint effort to raise the family- and anyone steps in to do the job that is necessary.

 

[Rence]

About 15 years ago I read a story about a sociology class from one of the Univ of Ca. campuses that did an experiment. They all went out on the street and stopped passers-by and asked two questions: 1.) Are you married? 2.) On a scale of 1-10 how happy are you? Then they collated the answers.

Least happy were married women, followed by single men,

Happier were single women and the most happy were married men.

I find that very understandable

 

[Rence]

Furthermore, continuing on from my previous post… If a woman loves her job and her career, she isn’t submitting to the head and she is not doing it for the well being of the family. she is doing it for herself, and that is to great detriment to the family!!!

I can see why you’re single

 

[VirtusTransitus]

I was always going to be a married man. It’s what was modeled for me, to great success. From a very early age, I was looking FOR a mate, not TO mate.

Some men, though, are definitely into conquests. I have many friends who spent most of their younger years “renting” relationships. Almost ALL of them fit one of two categories, now: 1. married and making the best of complicated paternity/stepkids/etc. issues, or 2. single and visibly miserable. In my opinion and experience, not many men find single life as a 40+ year old all that appealing. Only a very few George Clooneys in the world, and we’re not even 100% sure WHAT those guys are thinking…

I think humans are driven towards pairing up and having kids because its in our DNA. There are exceptions, those exceptions are interesting and exciting, they make good TV and movies, and so we think pairing up (marriage) is this weird, sedentary lifestyle. Any married man with a vibrant wife and 3 kids knows there’s nothing boring or sedentary about it. My single friends are the ones who get bored. Not me…

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I can see why you’re single

I don’t get it. Care to elaborate? If I have on my mind to be the best wife I can be, why would I still be single?

 

[thewanderer]

I would agree that is the better question. But I have no idea why a man would not want that. My problem is that from what I see and understand, I gather men do not want that.

I have two “uncles” that never married my aunts. Both aunts are what one would describe as working independent women. These men have been their live in boyfriends for years and they do not plan to ever marry. They do not need to.

One of them I do know has cheated on one of my aunts. She took him back, pretty much without any huge ordeal, and so I feel that the cheating has occurred more than once and she’s just grown accustomed to it.

Both of my aunts dote on their boyfriends and cook, clean and do everything a wife would do for her husband- albeit not in a June Cleaver sort of way, but still, the point is they make the relationship work.

None of these things that you mention are of any incentive for either one of my “uncles” to marry one of my aunts. It seems that marriage is entirely a religious concept and that if a man is not religious then the concept is not relevant to their lives at all.

Maybe another better question would be why are so many men becoming agnostic?

By the way, I should state that I do love my “uncles”. I just don’t like how they are treating my aunts by not offering marriage. Both my aunts would say they are Christian.

Seeing all this type of behavior and growing up with it really gives me a impression that nothing really matters.

I have to agree with BEL that we can’t know who, or what, is the cause of them not being married.

I also want to just point out that the word “marriage” can be used to mean all sorts of different things, there are natural marriages, civil marriages, and sacramental marriages, all of which are different things. Natural and Sacramental marriages are both recognized by the Church as valid, civil marriages are in a completely different category (although they are admittedly related). It is possible for two people to be truly and validly married in a natural marriage even if they are not civily or sacramentally married. Natural marriage is essentially just a mutual complete and unconditional comitment. This can exist between two people who are not civilly married.

 

[thewanderer]

I don’t get it. Care to elaborate? If I have on my mind to be the best wife I can be, why would I still be single?

Maybe he is just pointing out that there are a lot of guys today who just can’t afford to marry a woman who refuses to work? Especially with the state of the economy these days…

 

[EasterJoy]

I would agree that is the better question. But I have no idea why a man would not want that. My problem is that from what I see and understand, I gather men do not want that.

I have two “uncles” that never married my aunts. Both aunts are what one would describe as working independent women. These men have been their live in boyfriends for years and they do not plan to ever marry. They do not need to.

One of them I do know has cheated on one of my aunts. She took him back, pretty much without any huge ordeal, and so I feel that the cheating has occurred more than once and she’s just grown accustomed to it.

Both of my aunts dote on their boyfriends and cook, clean and do everything a wife would do for her husband- albeit not in a June Cleaver sort of way, but still, the point is they make the relationship work.

None of these things that you mention are of any incentive for either one of my “uncles” to marry one of my aunts. It seems that marriage is entirely a religious concept and that if a man is not religious then the concept is not relevant to their lives at all.

Maybe another better question would be why are so many men becoming agnostic?

By the way, I should state that I do love my “uncles”. I just don’t like how they are treating my aunts by not offering marriage. Both my aunts would say they are Christian.

Seeing all this type of behavior and growing up with it really gives me a impression that nothing really matters.

You cannot know a co-habituating couple’s reasons for not marrying, and those reasons can change over the years. Inertia is a big one, on both sides. Fear of the consequences of having to go through a divorce is another. The most common I run into is failure to appreciate the advantages that society offers to married couples, of which there are many, and, to be blunt, fear of failure. For some reason, a divorce is seen as a bigger failure than failing to marry at all.

 

[chevalier]

You cannot know a co-habituating couple’s reasons for not marrying, and those reasons can change over the years. Inertia is a big one, on both sides. Fear of the consequences of having to go through a divorce is another. The most common I run into is failure to appreciate the advantages that society offers to married couples, of which there are many, and, to be blunt, fear of failure. For some reason, a divorce is seen as a bigger failure than failing to marry at all.

+1 on that one.

 

[JoeofCupertino]

Why do men get blamed for women not being able to find a man? First of all, there are many women that believe there is some perfect man out there for them and reject many advances of perfectly good men or look for small defects to turn a man down.

I also think that many women enjoy being single and also like to stay unmarried. This message board is female dominated so men get a lot of heat from women. Women like to complain about men.

I actually think men prefer marriage to single life but men fear the controlling nature of many women today. Men like to have at least some time to themselves to do guy stuff. Women today tend to overschedule their man with activities and look down on men doing things that make them happy. I have seen many threads on CAF where women complain about their men either making a mess when having their friends over or simply having friends over instead of spending that time with her. I think women have too many needs today and men simply aren’t equipped to handle the many needs a woman has.

Both men and women have issues in dating and finding people. I just don’t think that men are any worse than women. I don’t think that a woman being single is because men are too superficial and not religious enough. If anything, men get driven away from church because too much is made of feminine aspects of spirituality while most masculine forms of devotion and piety are thrown away to displays of emotion and an emphasis on relationships. Men pray and show devotion in different ways than women do but the female way is the most outwardly seen way in churches today. This is what causes men to lose interest. But a good case can be made for women being very emotional when they find some fault in religion as well so a lack of religion is in no way unique to men.

I would also posit that women like projects and think agnostic/atheist men can be converted by them. Women like having a project and to feel like they are needed but this causes women a lot of pain when said guy never converts. If women dropped the missionary dating and marriage attitude then I think more women would find marriage minded Catholics.

 

[Baelor]

If you are talking to a fellow in that position, I don’t think he’d be consoled by the thought that “her consequences are greater than yours.”

No one made any attempt at consolation. It remains a fact that a woman bears a child. All of the rest of your examples are based on hypothetical circumstances that may not materialize.

 

[thewanderer]

No one made any attempt at consolation. It remains a fact that a woman bears a child. All of the rest of your examples are based on hypothetical circumstances that may not materialize.

I’ve got to say though Baelor, A woman does not always bear a child, especially if they are using some form of birth control, so your example has an element of the hypothetical within it as well.

 

[Baelor]

I’ve got to say though Baelor, A woman does not always bear a child, especially if they are using some form of birth control, so your example has an element of the hypothetical within it as well.

The risk of pregnancy is still there, for one; second, my implicit (and now explicit) assumption is that the couple followed Catholic teaching except for premarital sex.

 

[thewanderer]

The risk of pregnancy is still there, for one; second, my implicit (and now explicit) assumption is that the couple followed Catholic teaching except for premarital sex.

NFP is a form of birth control.

Also, I’ve got to say if you are truly talking about couples following the Church’s teaching then I don’t see what there is to discuss. Such a couple is already married and living selflessly for each other, neither of them is being selfish about when they should have children and neither is pushing the other to have relations when they should be avoiding, in which case it is not up to the woman but to the couple. In fact, following Church teaching truly it would moreso be the responsibility of the man in that he is supposed to take authority and rule as Christ rules, always acting out of selfless love, never asking anything of his wife that he knows will cause her pain, fear, or displeasure, whether present or future.

This is all completely besides the point though, you are sounding more and more as though you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and I sincerely doubt the OP appreciates such a tangent in her thread, so I will not be responding to any reply you might make. :tiphat:

 

[thewanderer]

The risk of pregnancy is still there, for one; second, my implicit (and now explicit) assumption is that the couple followed Catholic teaching except for premarital sex.

Even while pregnant or after menopause? Or during the woman’s infertile period? NFP is a form of birth control after all.

Also, I’ve got to say if you are truly talking about couples following the Church’s teaching then I don’t see what there is to discuss. Such a couple is already married and living selflessly for each other, neither of them is being selfish about when they should have children and neither is pushing the other to have relations when they should be avoiding, in which case any unwanted physical effects for the woman are also unwanted by the man who is supposed to love his wife as Christ loved the Church.

But this is all completely besides the point, you are sounding more and more as though you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and I sincerely doubt the OP appreciates such a tangent in her thread, so I will not be responding to any reply you might make. :tiphat:

 

[EasterJoy]

No one made any attempt at consolation. It remains a fact that a woman bears a child. All of the rest of your examples are based on hypothetical circumstances that may not materialize.

I wish I could say that the woman will bear a child, but it is not always so, even when the father is willing to raise the child she chooses to abort. Women who have never married and are not cohabiting account for 45% of all abortions. If she wants to end their child’s life, that is her legal prerogative, and there is not a thing he can do about it. :crying:

If that doesn’t sound like a steep consequence to you, I cannot imagine that you are a father.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

and I sincerely doubt the OP appreciates such a tangent in her thread, so I will not be responding to any reply you might make. :tiphat:

Its ok… everyone is talking and I appreciate being able to listen. But, I have to say I am kind of sorry I started this thread- which I did with a little bit of bitterness/insecurity which was not right of me, but I just don’t understand what is going on today so I asked the question.

This thread, for some seems to have ripped open fresh wounds… (I’m sorry Joe of Cupertino that if in any way you feel that somehow what I’ve said was a put down towards men- I’m really trying to understand them and perhaps my frustration shows?) …which kind of goes back to why I am concerned about the sanctity of marriage being upheld. There seems to be a lot of wounded-ness when it comes to men/women relations. Perhaps it was always that way- but I kind of doubt it. ? Seems to me that the damage of pornography and now acceptance of premarital sex as ok and its occurrence have truly done its damage and the sad thing is that many (men and women) don’t realize the sheer volume of damage done OR that they themselves act out this ‘damage’.

I do see it that our refuge is in Christ to clear the confusion. Romans 8:28. That is our hope.