What is materialism?

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You refer to “patterns of thought” as if it is self-evident what they are. What do you think they are? Electrical currents in the brain?
You ask what patterns of thought are as if they REALLY are something other than what they appear to be. All I mean by “pattern of thought” is an idea or a habit of mind such as reasoning that if A implies B and B implies C then then A implies C.

Thoughts can be talked about in terms of electrical currents in the brain and in lots of other ways. The fact that thoughts are often understood in terms of electrical currents doesn’t mean that that is what thoughts REALLY are. Asking what thoughts REALLY are is like asking if 4 is really 2+2 or is it the square root of 16 or is it 15-11 etc. Which description of thought is best just depends on what your puposes are for describing thought to begin with.
If so how do we control them? In fact you imply we don’t because you state that they have made us successful…
How do we control thoughts? Thoughts don’t need to be controlled. We use thoughts and we do that by thinking. Or even better, let’s not suppose any distinction to be made between a person and her thoughts, ideas, values, preferences, etc. Our use of thoughts is part of what we mean by the person.
 
Say a physicist holds the view that the universe has both matter (which is clearly material) and fields (which seem to be immaterial). Examples of the latter would be the gravitational field and the electromagnetic field. Thus it would seem that the physicist was not a materialist. However, this appears to go against the usage here of painting scientists as materialists.

So what exactly does it take for something to be immaterial? Is dark matter immaterial? What about dark energy?
 
A very warm welcome to the forum!
What about the argument that we are basically reasonable beings is proved by the success of science? To deny that is to contradict yourself…
Though you may just be speaking loosely, be sure to distinguish between:
(a) the abstract propositional content of a man’s beliefs (propositions), and
(b) his distinct act of psychologically assenting to those propositions (beliefs).
Only the former may stand in the relation of contradiction; no one can literally contradict himself, though he may profess to affirm and assent to two directly contradictory propositions. However, his doing so is by no means a broadly logical impossibility.
Arguably, it is mentally impossible, though even that is disputable. It’s an empirical question of fact regarding psychological, not logical, consistency, and the practical feasibility of a subjective belief, or lack thereof, doesn’t necessarily shed any light on whether that belief’s propositional structure and constituents correspond to external fact. Hence, the potential gap between idea and mind, object and subject, ideal and practical.

This is my reasoning:
  1. If a man asserts that human beings are not reasonable he includes himself in that category.
  2. If he makes a statement he expects us to regard it as true, false or meaningless.
  3. If he expects us to regard it as false or meaningless he is wasting his time and ours!
  4. If he expects us to accept his reasoning his expectation contradicts his statement that human beings are not reasonable!
It may now be clearer now why you haven’t persuaded her. Your first claim, that it’s unreasonable to, in effect, affirm two (for argument’s sake) inconsistent propositions, is without argumentative support. Since, as shown, it’s not a contradiction, what sort of premise would help out? It would need to give at least rough criteria for what constitutes reasonable behavior, and thus presumably tie rational behavior to true belief, and then ultimately bridge the gap from a descriptive proposition (e.g., ‘a is F’) to a prescriptive one (‘n ought to m’).
I think my use of “expectation” overcomes that problem.
In other words, ‘p and q are two inconsistent propositions,’ must somehow, presumably logically, justify ‘One ought not believe in both p and q.’ You suggest this is done by ‘It is unreasonable behavior to believe in both of two inconsistent propositions,’ except that only leaves you with a descriptive claim and fails to justify an ethical assertion.
I am concerned only with the descriptive claim. If people choose to be inconsistent it may or may not be deplorable but it doesn’t alter the fact that they are inconsistent - which amounts to being unreasonable…
You seem to appeal to an assumption, ‘One ought not to behave unreasonably,’ only, I don’t think she “sees” this like you do, at least not as being clearly worthy of acceptance, or self-evident, doxastically compelling, existentially compelling, etc. After a quick look at her blog, it would appear she’s a pragmatist.
You are perfectly correct!
So: how can you prove to her (show, demonstrate) an assumption based on (apparently) strictly intuitive non-logical grounds that (also apparently) are subjective? By examining the pragmatic effects of affirmation vs. denial? By praying for her intellect to be freed from the darkness of sin – and, perhaps, the dependence on her own creations of indirect mental representations – so that it might openly know the light of truth directly? More logic and argument, hopefully pointing out her acceptance of two inconsistent beliefs?
I believe rational discussions are ultimately fruitful but not necessarily in the short term. 🙂
In a perfect world, due to the ultimate, beautiful unity of the True and the Good, and of our intellects and wills, knowing the slight ontological priority of either one might bear little practical significance for our righteousness. In OUR world, however, they may be somewhat independently pulling in two different directions, one to heaven, one to hell.
Besides attempting disambiguation of terms and viewpoints, I don’t recommend getting into ongoing “rational” discussion with someone who denies the meaning, nature, and value of truth as it’s traditionally understood by common sense, whether allegedly or sincerely. That’s walking a dangerous tight-rope over nihilistic nonsense and chaotic unintelligibility (whatever that is).
I’m not sure Leela denies the meaning, nature, and value of truth but you may well be right. 🙂
 
You refer to “patterns of thought” as if it is self-evident what they are. What do you think they are? Electrical currents in the brain?
Do you never distinguish between appearances and reality?
All I mean by “pattern of thought” is an idea or a habit of mind such as reasoning that if A implies B and B implies C then then A implies C.
It is certainly not self-evident that a “pattern of thought” is necessarily a habit of mind. A habit has to be formed in the first place and sooner or later bad habits have to be discarded if one is to be reasonable. This implies that reasoning is more than a habit…
Thoughts can be talked about in terms of electrical currents in the brain and in lots of other ways. The fact that thoughts are often understood in terms of electrical currents doesn’t mean that that is what thoughts REALLY are. Asking what thoughts REALLY are is like asking if 4 is really 2+2 or is it the square root of 16 or is it 15-11 etc. Which description of thought is best just depends on what your purposes are for describing thought to begin with.
Do you think all descriptions depend on what your purposes are?
How do we control thoughts? Thoughts don’t need to be controlled. We use thoughts and we do that by thinking.
So thinking occurs without any control on your part?
Or even better, let’s not suppose any distinction to be made between a person and her thoughts, ideas, values, preferences, etc. Our use of thoughts is part of what we mean by the person.
So “person” is simply a term to describe a collection of mental events?
 
Do you never distinguish between appearances and reality?
Only in the usual sense such as in describing a magician’s trick, never as ontology. I think ontology is answers to bad questions.
It is certainly not self-evident that a “pattern of thought” is necessarily a habit of mind. A habit has to be formed in the first place and sooner or later bad habits have to be discarded if one is to be reasonable. This implies that reasoning is more than a habit…
Habits aren’t necessarily bad. Some never need to be discarded but all of them were picked up at some time and all of them can be discarded.
Do you think all descriptions depend on what your purposes are?
Yes.
So thinking occurs without any control on your part?
I am, in part, my thoughts. Distinguishing one’s thoughts and the self that is controlling them is impossible.
So “person” is simply a term to describe a collection of mental events?
Not just mental events. A person can be thought of as a collection of patterns. Only some of those patterns are patterns of thought. And let’s not forget a person’s tendency to surprise (to break from a pattern, be unpredictable, and become new patterns). We aren’t merely patterns but patterns that are constantly evolving (you never step in the same river twice) and hopefully getting better.
 
Do you never distinguish between appearances and reality?
So appearances are never deceptive?
It is certainly not self-evident that a “pattern of thought” is necessarily a habit of mind. A habit has to be formed in the first place and sooner or later bad habits have to be discarded if one is to be reasonable. This implies that reasoning is more than a habit…
Habits aren’t necessarily bad. Some never need to be discarded but all of them were picked up at some time and all of them can be discarded.

In other words some one decides to pick them up and discard them when it is thought necessary…
Do you think all descriptions depend on what your purposes are?
Yes.

And what do your purposes depend on?
So thinking occurs without any control on your part?
I am, in part, my thoughts. Distinguishing one’s thoughts and the self that is controlling them is impossible.

I thought you don’t believe thoughts are controlled…
So “person” is simply a term to describe a collection of mental events?
Not just mental events. A person can be thought of as a collection of patterns. Only some of those patterns are patterns of thought.

That is reminiscent of Hume’s “bundle of perceptions”… So you don’t believe you are the same person from one moment to the next - given that the patterns are changing and have no continuity?
And let’s not forget a person’s tendency to surprise (to break from a pattern, be unpredictable, and become new patterns). We aren’t merely patterns but patterns that are constantly evolving (you never step in the same river twice) and hopefully getting better.
Being unpredictable is not a guarantee of getting better. In fact it suggests what we become is a matter of luck!
 
You refer to “patterns of thought” as if it is self-evident what they are. What do you think they are? Electrical currents in the brain?
Do you never distinguish between appearances and reality?
All I mean by “pattern of thought” is an idea or a habit of mind such as reasoning that if A implies B and B implies C then then A implies C.
It is certainly not self-evident that a “pattern of thought” is necessarily a habit of mind. A habit has to be formed in the first place and sooner or later bad habits have to be discarded if one is to be reasonable. This implies that reasoning is more than a habit…
Thoughts can be talked about in terms of electrical currents in the brain and in lots of other ways. The fact that thoughts are often understood in terms of electrical currents doesn’t mean that that is what thoughts REALLY are. Asking what thoughts REALLY are is like asking if 4 is really 2+2 or is it the square root of 16 or is it 15-11 etc. Which description of thought is best just depends on what your purposes are for describing thought to begin with.
Do you think all descriptions depend on what your purposes are?
How do we control thoughts? Thoughts don’t need to be controlled. We use thoughts and we do that by thinking.
So thinking occurs without any control on your part?
Or even better, let’s not suppose any distinction to be made between a person and her thoughts, ideas, values, preferences, etc. Our use of thoughts is part of what we mean by the person.
So “person” is simply a term to describe a collection of mental events?
 
Tony,

I’m not sure she expects you to accept it, at least not entirely on the basis of truth. Pragmatists usually don’t expect you to act based on rational thought alone, especially if most people aren’t primarily motivated by truth. If she thinks you’re mostly intellectually moved by pride, then perhaps all the superficial arguments boil down to power trips. Maybe she thinks you will be so bothered by her unwillingness to budge in the face of logic that you will consequently deny the importance of logic in human affairs. Who knows? An abstract proposition itself asserts truth and has truth-value; an utterance of words in propositional structure is just the creation of the speaker, who may be using it as a vehicle for other intentions, not thinking of truth. (We call these bullsh***ers.)

Imagine a man (hypothetically, contrary to fact) whose sole purpose in existence is to maximally procreate, and thus, whose every act would be justified only according to whether it in fact contributed toward or detracted from that purpose. (I’m meaning ‘justification’ in terms of goodness, i.e., perfection, i.e., completion, wholeness, unity between means and end.) By my understanding, the goodness of a means is relative to its end and that alone. What else would justify a means? So this man’s rationality and intellect would only be a tool that he may use for a further end. In this case, he uses his reason well (reasonably) when it properly serves and supports his maximal procreation; truth is secondary at best, as that’s not his real purpose or aim, either subjectively or objectively. Truth itself would, it seems, be instrumental, deriving its worth from the Good.

Now suppose, as a given fact, that the man’s most efficient way to achieve that end and cause maximal procreation is by mating with several women, all while maintaining concurrent emotionally stable relationships with each. In order to successfully and perfectly achieve his end, in other words, in order to act with justification, he has to really believe that he is in true love with only the one he is around at any given moment. Assuming that sexual, romantic love necessarily requires lifelong monogamy and exclusive commitment, his beliefs about truly loving each woman are false. So false belief is justified and reasonable for him, since true belief will cause him to fail to reach his sole purpose for existence, “his good.” He actually is better off by “fragmenting” himself and avoiding a coherent and unified belief-system to make his goals psychologically viable. Whenever there is tension between truth and goodness, on this view, the latter takes precedent.

The question is: what is the true end of man, and how does one speak of goodness without presupposing the truth of its required end? Ah, but the pragmatist is typically not as concerned with the truth of the answer as much as whether it works and produces good. The empowered will (that which is oriented toward the good) is in control, running the show non-rationally, and let’s hope the intellect (that which understands and sees truth) can keep up, since the will may be hard pressed to reach anything if it’s stuck in utter darkness.

The divorce of will and intellect is a result of the Fall. They can only be united again under God, which means one must come to know Him again, so that His undeniable Goodness and Beauty will be irresistible to the will. The will’s proper place, following the intellect and its beholding of good, can then be restored. United, they are the loving spirit. Prayer and sacraments help, since no one will make it all on his own.
Say a physicist holds the view that the universe has both matter (which is clearly material) and fields (which seem to be immaterial). Examples of the latter would be the gravitational field and the electromagnetic field. Thus it would seem that the physicist was not a materialist. However, this appears to go against the usage here of painting scientists as materialists.

So what exactly does it take for something to be immaterial? Is dark matter immaterial? What about dark energy?
Scholastics distinguish form and matter as co-principles that cannot exist in isolation, so it’s no wonder that materialists are unable to maintain coherency. A pure materialism would deny the formal aspects and thus be left only with primary, formless, unintelligible matter. Materialists just tend to reduce the formal as much as they conceivably can, perhaps because they focus too much on the fact that pure form “in” nothing is also problematic. (Pure form is like pure ‘relationality’: relations “exist” between THINGS though, i.e., constituents, materials, elements, what have you; see the absurdity of Leela’s “collection of patterns” idea and how “collection” is her word for sidestepping commitment to a unified basic substance while seeming to state a meaningful affirmation of pure diversity, change, “evolution,” etc.)
 
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