What is morally wrong with socioecomic part of Ayn rans philosophy?

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You gotta love Contarini posts. When he lets loose a full broadside post, I’ve yet to see defenses hold up. Edwin, you’re either REALLY good at arguing or you’re really good at self discipline when you aren’t dead certain of your position. Either way, bravo.
 
Yes, I’ll second and third that. When God gave gifts to men, He gave some special gifts to Edwin, especially suited for these forums.

God’s peace

Micah
 
You are wrong:
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Self-Defense
"Self-Defense.—Ethically the subject of self-defense regards the right of a private person to employ force against any one who unjustly attacks his life or person, his property or good name. "

“DEFENSE OF PROPERTY—It is lawful to defend one’s material goods even at the expense of the aggressor’s life; for neither justice nor charity require that one should sacrifice possessions, even though they be of less value than human life in order to preserve the life of a man who wantonly exposes it in order to do an injustice.

So killing to stop theft can be ok.

Of course with some caveats (which are mostly missing in case of defending ones life, reflecting the greater importance of the right to live):

" Here, however, we must recall the principle that in extreme necessity every man has a right to appropriate whatever is necessary to preserve his life. The starving man who snatches a meal is not an unjust aggressor; consequently it is not lawful to use force against him. Again, the property which may be defended at the expense of the aggressor’s life must be of considerable value; for charity forbids that in order to protect ourselves from a trivial loss we should deprive our neighbor of his life. Thefts or robberies, however, of small values are to be considered not in their individual, but in their cumulative, aspect. A thief may be slain in the act of carrying away stolen property provided that it cannot be recovered from him by any other means: if, for example, he can be made to abandon his spoil through fright, then it would not be lawful to shoot him. If he has carried the goods away to safety he cannot then be killed in order to recover them; but the owner may endeavor to take them from him, and if the thief resists with violence he may be killed in self-defense. "

The crucial aspect is that a justification for taking property against the owners will can exist. So if the government proclaims that everybody above certain wealth level has to pay 10% of property in taxes, so government can provide for the needy to save them for starvation, it is immoral to resist against that.

But if the government declares that the wealthy have to give up 90% to keep people from starving and
-nobody will starve if the government doesnt get 90%, 10% are more than enough to avoid starvation
-the taxation will seriously reduce wealth output
-and government will take this as excuse to tax/confiscate even more, which might lead to a collapse of society if repeated
then resistance would be legitimate. And as killing of all ascociated with government means effictively fighting a very bloody civil war, simply destroying ones property and hiding might be the less severe form of defense, as harming only ones own property and doing nothing are normaly less severe acts than killing someone else.

Rand might be mistaken about how often governments do the latter instead of the former (and i never read any opinion of her about government actually doing the former) and especially how often government might do this in some slow routine without noticing, but Atlas Shrugged is about government doing the latter. So i cannot see the real immoral thing.

It could be seen in painting anyone claiming to helping the poor or claiming that opponents do not want to help the poor as lying, but considering how often politicians actually do that and especially how often soviet communist did that, i cannot see this as a very serious error. If someone loses trust to a too large extent, after having been lied too often to, then its mainly the guilt of the people lying so often.

As an example, think about the VP candidate choice, that got me thinking about this issue again, wasnt he depicted pushing an elderly in a wheel chair over a cliff?
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389283/Grandma-thrown-cliff-Paul-Ryan-lookalike-anti-GOP-Medicare-advert-The-Agenda-Project.html

With such blatant lies flying around, the premise that controlling economy for charity purposes is just a lie, is understandable.
Thanks, Carn.
I am a Protestant and am a bit of the Anabaptist persuasion as far as my understanding of violence and the Christian. However, I recognize that I don’t have everything figured out, so at the very least I appreciate this as it is challenging to me. If I were to convert I would ask God to help me to accept this.

Can you point me to something to help me to understand how to reconcile the legitimacy of both Catholics who believe in non-violence and those who believe in violent self defense? Thanks for your help.
 
This question really is like two ships passing in the night.

One side rightly notes the excessive self-interest, selfishness, ethical egoism in the libertarian stuff. This approach is deeply against any truly complete vision of human life and human society.

However, it’s exciting stuff!

The second side finds Ann Rand (yeah, I’m going to spell it that way to dissipate the mystique) compelling because it’s such an exciting thrill. It’s a kind of empowerment. . . and nothing wrong with that. But it is a constrained empowerment.

I just don’t think you can really call Ann Rand “philosophy.” I’d call it “social thought”; it’s just not deep enough for real philosophy.

By the way, with respect to violence, the less the better. I’d happily hand over my jewels and gold to a robber with a gun.
 
Agree. Like I said in the beginning. She had an interesting idea (which already existed) and it got blown all out of proportion.

At the basest inividual level, if each person maximized and/or optimized their potential with their time, talent and treasure for the sake of glorifying God and eternal salvation, virtuously of course (I added that part, but it could/should be inferred, at least by Catholics), the world would be a much better place, in fact we might even help with regards to “Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”.

In her books she chooses one person to fill that role to contrast them with everyone else. Makes for interesting reading. But it is a simple ploy that most people intuitively recognize it’s limitations. However, I would still assert that her scathing critiques of the political correctness of the day and what we could now see as secular relativism in her novels were effective at generating a lot of interest. It’s just that, in the end, there’s just not that much substance there.
 
Can you point me to something to help me to understand how to reconcile the legitimacy of both Catholics who believe in non-violence and those who believe in violent self defense? Thanks for your help.
Nothing good.

The best i can come up with is that although it is not morally wrong to use force against thiefs (assuming the requirements are met), it is not mandatory either and it carries (at least as long as oneself is the only person hurt by the theft) a greater risk to do something wrong (e.g. killing the thief although what he stole did not met the requirement of being considerable valuable).
So while both options can be ok, it could be that one is more moral than the other for a specific individual and/or in specific situations. Therefore there is nothing wrong with someone thinking about the issue and concluding that his conscience requires him to never kill to stop theft, because in respect to his circumstances it might be the more moral choice. (This by the way, as also mentioned in the encyclopedia page, might be different for a police officer, as he is required to protect others from theft and uphold the law.)

Or alternatively as a bad comparison (dont have any better in mind), regarding sex, its allowed to marry and have sex. But its also ok to not to marry and ever have sex. For some individuals one thing might be the more moral choice, while for others the other might be more moral.

@Captain America
"The second side finds Ann Rand compelling because it’s such an exciting thrill. "
No.

At least for me, the short version:

Rand:“Individual human rights must be respected, even from the government and even from people attempting to make people feel guilty for acting within their rights without harming others.”

Conservatives, religious people, liberals and many many others: “That is throughfully and despicably evil!”

Carn:"???"

@Contarini
“The moral issue is ascribing value to human beings based on their talents.”
That would be evil, but i missed the part where Rand did ascribe value soley based on talents. Evidence that this is her position?

Regarding self defense and theft, check the above linked catholic encyclopedia page, it is under specific circumstances allowed.

"Of course you need justification–but unless I misunderstand her, Rand denies that any justification is possible. "
No she doesnt, she explicitely wants the state to maintain armed forces and a justice system and she explicitely states that the state is allowed to collect taxes for these purposes. (Evidence is the char Ragnar Danneskjöld of Atlas Shrugged, who resorts to capturing ships to regain the property “stolen” by the government. But he avoids any taking or conflict with military vessels, because he considers it legal for the government to maintain a military fleet for defense, therefore the funds collected for these ships was legally collected and therefore he is not justified to capture those ships.)

"Rand denies the common good and elevates private property and the individual dignity of the “producers” to an absolute good, which dehumanizes those who are not “producers.”

It might be a problem of wording it precisely, but i cannot see “denying common good” in what i read from Rand. She seems to be deeply worried about a slow decline taking mankind back into some dark age with millions of people bound to die from starvation. The aim of the ideas of her “heroes” in Atlas Shrugged seem to be to make a controlled and faster decline with a potential faster recovery or somewhat avoidance of the negative consequences. That is incompatible with someone who thinks that the common good is irrelevant.

What she does deny (or at least gets close to) is that anyone claiming that the rich have to be taxed more so the common good can be served by helping the poor, is speaking honestly and/or understands the implication and limitation about what he is suggesting and/or carefully thought about it beforehand.

“Individual action to “deprive” other people rarely serves the common good–it’s only justified in extreme circumstances.”

As she named “Atlas Shrugged” to effictively be the best source for her ideas, she does not violate this, as at least in “Atlas Shrugged” the circumstances are extreme.

“No one is arguing that people should simply be fed if they refuse to work”

Maybe not in the US, but in Germany it is supreme court sanctioned interpretation of the constitution, that without conditions anyone has to be provided with a certain minimum. So exactly this point is argued by some or even many, depending on the country.

“–but if you make that requirement, you have to provide work.”

I was talking about looters using or threatening force to take others property. Bit unusual to offer work to people currently trying to rob you.

And in this respect Rand does not seem to disagree, at least twice in her book a situation happens, where someone is in a rather struggeling situation, and the respective “hero” offers work.

“Also, you’re using a Protestant proof-texting method here instead of looking at the tradition of Catholic social thought as a whole.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2427.htm
“Hence work is a duty: “If any one will not work, let him not eat.””

So what does catholic social thought suggest, if someone prefers looting over working, even after someone has suggested to him to stop looting and start working?

It seems that if he rejects a “food for work” offer, then his victim is certainly allowed to defend himself (at least if its of considerable wealth, which in Rands fiction is met, as the looters there continue to take more and more) and if that self defense results in the failure of the looting attempt and subsequent starvation of the looter, the victim is without guilt.
 
Contrarini, I love your posts!! Brilliant! You are such a blessing to this forum!
I couldn’t agree more 😃

I am forever nourished by the knowledge, depth and subtletly of his posts. I am very much a “Contarini fan” :o 😊 I have been provoked, thoughtfully, on many occassions by concepts which he has raised which I have never thought of before - and his debating skills are simply top notch. I have only crossed him once before in a discussion, on Sufism, and while I still hold to my opinions over his, I believe that he argued his and stood his ground far more effectively than me.

I am eager to pick up a few pointers from the Master himself 😃

On Ayn Rand - I knew nothing of this woman prior to Paul Ryan being appointed by Mitt Romney as his running man but from the little I have since learned of her philosophy of “objectivism”, which favours self-interest and a kind of economic isolationism from others - to the extent that she condemns self-sacrifice or giving up one’s wealth on behalf of others - I find it to be very far removed from the spirit of Christ. The “unfettered” market which she promotes is chaos in disguise and would constitute - should it ever be implemented en masse - the triumph of ego and self-preservation, which would not only lead to complete moral decay in our society but would be disastrous for the economy, unbridled capitalism and hoarding of wealth in the hands of the few, to the detriment of the many. It would simply be state-sanctioned, lawful “economic anarchy” and greed without any regulation, an economic “Social Darwinism” where only the fittest - those with the most wealth, connections and status in society - would survive, and the rest would be in misery. Not to mention her blatant moral beliefs - quite apart from her economics - with a free sanctioning of complete sexual liberty (that is PROMISCUITY), abortion and her rapant homophobia (not Catholic either - we deplore the act not the person or their sexuality which is outside of their control).

The Church warns of the excessess of both capitalism and socialism: Both can become “idolatrous” (to use Christian parlance).

Capitalism - Can become “self-focused”, the individual’s success and happiness at the expense of and at the detriment of other people. Promotes a “me, me” outlook on life. Unlimited hoarding of wealth and goods rather than placing them at the service of the common good/using them for the common good. Self worship.

Socialism/Communism - Can lead to the suspension of individual liberty and private ownership, to the worship and glorification of the state and a system which robs man of any individual human rights - relegating him to being a tiny, voiceless cog in a great faceless machine. Worship of the state.

Neither are attractive to me and neither are Christian - in the “extreme”. A moderate middle ground between both, or “moderate left” or “moderate right”, would be best (although not ideal - there can be no earthly utopia!).
 
Oh and I heard that she died reliant upon social security benefits - and yet she spent the best part of her life denying other people the opportunity to take benefits from the state?

I guess they were just supposed to “die”, ya know, of old age? “Self-interest” and all!

Its laughable and a lovely example of “reap what you sow”. Is it not “poetic justice”?

The woman who railed that people should not concern themselves with the lives and/or welfare of other people, except where her life/welfare was later at stake.

Oh - because Ayn is more important than other people, its all about “self” after all isn’t it? 😉
 
Contarini wrote,
From an orthodox Christian perspective, one can argue whether property is in fact “inalienable.” St. Thomas Aquinas thought that private property was a legitimate human convention, not a fundamental natural right. Pope Leo XIII seems to have taught that it was, in fact, a natural right–but he agreed with Aquinas that private property exists to serve the common good. It is thus not “inalienable” without serious qualification.
Yes Blessed Pope John XXIII also upheld private property as a natural right however he also maintained that private ownership of property is not an end in itself - by its very nature there comes with it a social function, exercised not only for one’s own benefit (as with Rand) but for the welfare of others, which is the antithesis of her “self-interest” philosophy and economics.

“…Private ownership of property, including that of productive goods, is a natural right which the State cannot suppress. But it naturally entails a social obligation as well. It is a right which must be exercised not only for one’s own personal benefit but also for the benefit of others. As for the State, its whole raison d’etre is the realization of the common good in the temporal order…With regard to private property, Our Predecessor reaffirmed its origin in natural law, and enlarged upon its social aspect and the obligations of ownership…Concerning the use of material goods, Our Predecessor declared that the right of every man to use these for his own sustenance is prior to every other economic right, even that of private property. The right to the private possession of material goods is admittedly a natural one; nevertheless, in the objective order established by God, the right to property cannot stand in the way of the axiomatic principle that “the goods which were created by God for all men should flow to all alike, according to the principles of justice and charity” (20)…”

- Blessed Pope John XXIII (1881 – 1963), MATER ET MAGISTRA, MAY 15, 1961

The Pope above presents the clearest illustration, I think, from Catholic tradition of what you are saying.

The ultimate end - both on the level of individuals and the state - is the “common good” as you correctly pointed out. Everything is and must needs be ordered towards the realization of the common good and not “self-interest” or economic self preservation.
 
From the same encyclical:

“…Our predecessors have insisted time and again on the social function inherent in the right of private ownership, for it cannot be denied that in the plan of the Creator all of this world’s goods are primarily intended for the worthy support of the entire human race. Hence, as Leo XIII so wisely taught in Rerum Novarum: “whoever has received from the divine bounty a large share of temporal blessings, whether they be external and corporeal, or gifts of the mind, has received them for the purpose of using them for the perfecting of his own nature, and, at the same time, that he may employ them, as the steward of God’s Providence, for the benefit of others. ‘He that hath a talent,’ says St. Gregory the Great, ‘let him see that he hide it not; he that hath abundance, let him quicken himself to mercy and generosity; he that hath art and skill, let him do his best to share the use and the utility thereof with his neighbor’.” (36)…”

- Blessed Pope John XXIII (1881 – 1963), MATER ET MAGISTRA, MAY 15, 1961
 
Why attach it to Ayn Rand? There are plenty of Catholic economists/historians that support a free market system. Look at the Spanish Scholastics for example.

I see no problem with a Catholic advocating a pure market system. I do. I have studied the subject and find that market interventions lead to negative unintended (or oftentimes intended) consequences.

Ayn Rand had a much more overarching philosophy so I’d shy away from using anything from her.
I am also a Catholic and I also advocate a pure market system. I am also a formerly homeless person who saw up close and personal the way that the government operated systems set up to supposedly help the poor actually hurt them in the long run. And I have worked in the field of human services for the past 20 years both for agencies funded by government and agencies funded by private monies. The agencies funded by government, their administrative costs, are extremely high (more money goes to beaurocrats, less to those who are supposedly to be helped) compared to the private operation I worked for. It was much more efficient, much more effective.
 
With Romneys VP pick being a catholic, who also at least outrightly rejects Ayn Rans views in total, i expect some Rand bashing in the media soon. It seems that to many she is some kind of “antichrist” philosophically embodying all the evil capitalism stands for. But having read “Atlas Shrugged” and a lot of negative writing about Rand, i am still empty handed in trying to formulate what exactly is immoral about her ideas in these respects.

So i am asking here whether anyone can explain what is morally wrong with the socioeconomic part of her views.
I myself had read Ayn Rand for years and found much that was appealing in her philosophy. Ironically, my appreciation for her was largely apolitical and personal. In the Fountainhead, for example, there was an idealism of the “Dead Poets Society” sort – individualism in the spirit of Emerson, Thoreau, or the Transcendentalists. One domain in which individualism is hardest to cry down, I think, is in the arts, and Howard Roark of the Fountainhead is indeed an artist (specifically, an architect). There is that adherence to one’s personal vision that is something I’ve observed in many kinds of artists – a Van Gogh, for example, whose style is not understood or is not popular, but he needs to “be true to himself” (or to whatever it is that seems to want to come out of him). There is something irreducibly individualistic about the creative artist, with a personal vision or “style” that is uniquely his own (albeit with influences). Nietzsche once compared it to the selfishness of the pregnant (to protect that which is growing within them, which–in a sense–transcends mere selfishness).

But back to Rand’s politics. I think she offers a wonderful, “humanitistic” or libertarian criticism of the “evils” that arose from communist dictatorships. She identified the danger that can be engendered when one’s invocation of the “Common Good” becomes an abstraction, a “moral blank check” (as she would put it) for any behavior that is said to be in defense of the “common good.” A case in point would be the utter abstraction that was the “Committee of Public Safety” during the reign of terror. What is the “public”? How does one define it? For Rand, concrete reality was composed only of individuals, and “society” or “the public” had reality only insofar as it was the sum total of all individuals. Thus, her approach to the common good–which I do believe was important to her, at least on some level–was through the approach of individual rights. And her cardinal position regarding individual rights, as you may have read, is that “no one has the right to inititiate the use of physical force against anyone else.” This was the maxim which she observed the Soviet Communists had violated, in the name of the Common Good. Their conception of the “Common Good” justified their sacrifice of one segment of society (the bourgeois) for the benefit of another segment of society (the proletariat or, more realistically, the elite ruling class). She found any invocation of the Common Good to be dangerous, because she observed that virtually anything could be done in its name, unless it were also grounded in individual rights. If individuals have rights, you cannot sacrifice a minority for the “good” of the majority. If individuals do not have rights, and only the “collective” does, then individuals can be sacrificed in the name of the common good. In the case of Soviet Communism, I think she was correct in this assessment.

Nonetheless, it was almost shocking to me to realize that there was one value that did not exist in her vocabulary or view of the world – sympathy, compassion. She was passionately against the initiation of physical force, whether from a poor individual against a rich individual or vice versa. She abhorred slavery and would have abhorred any doctrine of violence expropriation of the poor by the rich (not just the rich by the poor). Liquidation of or physical violence against the poor would have been abhorrent to her. In this, she was passionately committed to her own ideals of justice and individual rights. What she didn’t acknowledge, however, is that there are other kinds of violence that can be done to the human person. Extreme poverty leading to starvation, for example, is a de facto form of violence. For Rand, because you did not murder a starving child with your own hands, it was not your responsibility. And what she detested, to your dying breath, was an advocate of the “common good” who would have expropriated your money or your property by force–on pain of imprisonment, for example–in order to redistribute the wealth. She felt that you got the money and property through voluntary exchange, whether in the marketplace or through a family member (and even the latter, in her mind, was a voluntary exchange of wealth or material goods, a non-coerced changing of hands). She detested force in relationships, which for her was ultimately violent in nature. But, again, she didn’t perceive more indirect forms of violence – the starvation of that individual that you are not being “forced” to help, even if that individual was a child.

Compassion or sympathy were not values in her morality. She didn’t even dare say that you ought to feel compassion for the starving child, for example (even in our modern U.S., a hungry or a homeless child would be unacceptable to the average American; a moral outrage). For Rand, it was not your responsibility that the starving child or adult was in the condition they were in. The feeding of that starving child or adult was not justification for the use of force or violence against your person, just because you have something that they need. She carried that through to its most extreme, libertarian conclusion – your neighbor could die, for all she cared, so long as it was not you who killed them directly.

So compassion and mercy were not values in her morality; justice, as she understood it, was, and justice meant that no individual or group of individuals has the right to initiate the use of physical force against any other individual. So many things, however, fall through the cracks with that definition – in principle, you have no obligation to be a Good Samaritan; to help someone who is in distress. You can remain hands off and no one can tell you to be “hands on,” nor can they lay their own hands on you to get you to do so.
It’s a philosophy without love of neighbor, though it does involve a steadfast respect for the “freedom” of others, at least in the technical sense of the word. Just so, no one is compelled at gunpoint to work in a sweatshop. But, if their bargaining power is compromised severely enough, or if they are desperately enough in need, they will consent to work in the sweatshop, voluntarily. Rand excoriated the first scenario (putting a gun to someone’s head, to get them to work in your factory) but had nothing to say about the second.

As if this were not enough, she was contemptuous of charity. She felt that charity had something immoral about it, because it was unearned. She confessed, in her personal journal (and probably elsewhere), that she had no respect for those who dedicated their lives to “helping” others. That’s where I was genuinely puzzled, since it was their choice
to help others and no one forced them to it. I suppose it’s a bit puzzling because even a libertarian, in principle, would have no problem with voluntary charity. Rand felt it was downright immoral, a violation of the “natural law”–or the law of “reason”, as she put it–whereby one was primarily responsible for surviving by one’s own efforts, just as no one can breathe for you, eat for you, or think for you.
 
Compassion or sympathy were not values in her morality. She didn’t even dare say that you ought to feel compassion for the starving child, for example (even in our modern U.S., a hungry or a homeless child would be unacceptable to the average American; a moral outrage). ´
Can you cite evidence, that she thought personally feeling compassion for starving children?
(All that i know, that she despised those claiming to act out of compassion and take others wealth to help people, because she was convinced they were liars.)
And was she against helping starving children?
For Rand, it was not your responsibility that the starving child or adult was in the condition they were in.
Worded this way, i cannot see in principle anything wrong. Often one did not cause ones neighbor to suffer.
The feeding of that starving child or adult was not justification for the use of force or violence against your person, just because you have something that they need.
Where did she write about the specific situation of starvation?

Besides the use of force to avert starvation is morally questionable, because the one doing it normally could just sell his gun and spend the time working instead and buy food for the starving child. The situation would have to pretty unsual for force being the only option and in many such situations the owners life might also be in danger, potentially justiying his decision not to give. The only practical situation where using force to save life happens are normally emergency cases, e.g. injured person must get to hospital, so one steals a car.
She carried that through to its most extreme, libertarian conclusion – your neighbor could die, for all she cared, so long as it was not you who killed them directly.
Realy?

She advocated not caring about people dying?

At least one of her disciples seems to be in favor of private charity:
aynrand.org/site/News2?id=13873&page=NewsArticle
"Some people can’t afford medical care in the U.S. But they are necessarily a small minority in a free or even semi-free country. If they were the majority, the country would be an utter bankrupt and could not even think of a national medical program. As to this small minority, in a free country they have to rely solely on private, voluntary charity. Yes, charity, the kindness of the doctors or of the better off—charity, not right, i.e. not their right to the lives or work of others. And such charity, I may say, was always forthcoming in the past in America. The advocates of Medicaid and Medicare under LBJ did not claim that the poor or old in the '60’s got bad care; they claimed that it was an affront for anyone to have to depend on charity.

But the fact is: You don’t abolish charity by calling it something else. If a person is getting health care for nothing, simply because he is breathing, he is still getting charity, whether or not any politician, lobbyist or activist calls it a “right.” To call it a Right when the recipient did not earn it is merely to compound the evil. It is charity still—though now extorted by criminal tactics of force, while hiding under a dishonest name."

He seems to have no problem with private charity, so without contrary evidence we would have to assume that Rand is no different, as he calls himself an objectivist.

The contempt is about forced charity.

@Vouthon

Calm your admiration, Contarini at least failed in realizing that before his post claiming i did not provide evidence regarding the issue of self defense and private property, i had in response to another poster quoted lengthy from catholic encyclopedia proving my claim that self defende, even lethal, can (under certain circumstances) be moral in defense of property.
Contarinis claim “What Rand is saying, essentially, is that it’s legitimate to kill people who threaten your property–which, again, is fundamentally contrary to Christian ethics.”
is wrong, its not fundamentally contrary to Christian ethics. Under the right circumstances it is in accordance with Christian ethics.
 
Contarinis claim “What Rand is saying, essentially, is that it’s legitimate to kill people who threaten your property–which, again, is fundamentally contrary to Christian ethics.”
is wrong, its not fundamentally contrary to Christian ethics. Under the right circumstances it is in accordance with Christian ethics.
A few points:

The CE is not “Christian ethics” as a whole. It is a good representation of the “neo-scholastic” consensus prevailing in the Catholic Church in the early 20th century, and generally its conclusions are in agreement with early modern scholasticism–not always with medieval and patristic teachings. Augustine had problems even with killing to defend one’s life. Aquinas clearly allows that, but only by the principle of double effect. By implication he seems to say that killing a person breaking into your house is lawful, because he sides in the “sed contra” a passage from Exodus appearing to say this, and gives no refutation of that argument (as he sometimes does when the “sed contra” is itself a flawed argument or needs clarification). But he doesn’t seem to go as far as the CE, which allows for killing a person who is running away with your property, for instance. He very clearly allows only for the use of force when the other person is using force. See this discussion of both Augustine and Aquinas on the issue of killing in self-defense.

When all that is said, I agree that I overstated the point. The point I should have stood on is that in Christian ethics life is more valuable than property, and that both Augustine and Aquinas clearly reject deliberately killing a person to preserve your property.

Furthermore, I shouldn’t have been sidetracked into that issue, since that’s not really what we’re talking about in discussing Rand. Her “looters” don’t appear to be what would normally be called “looters,” and of course letting someone die isn’t the same thing as killing them in traditional Christian ethics (you are the one who made the equation, and making it weakened your argument, but I should in fairness have pointed out that the equation is a flawed one).

The relevant point here is rather than in orthodox Christian ethics a person has a right to the basic necessities of life, and can even take them without the official owner’s knowledge or permission if absolutely necessary. This is clearly taught by Aquinas and acknowledged by the CE in the very article to which you allude as refuting my position.

All the more is it lawful, then, for a society to so arrange things as to ensure that the superfluous goods of the wealthy may be used to provide for the needs of the poor. This is not “looting” or theft in orthodox Christian social ethics. In claiming that it is, Rand and other libertarians are fundamentally contradicting Christian ethics.

Now we can legitimately disagree on just how this ought to be done, and how much the intervention of the government in modern society is desirable in order to produce this end. The principle of subsidiarity dictates that it should be done at a local level as much as possible. But the basic principle should not be in dispute: it is not looting or theft to “redistribute” the superfluous goods of the wealthy to supply the genuine, basic needs of the poor.

Edwin
 
Can you cite evidence, that she thought personally feeling compassion for starving children?
(All that i know, that she despised those claiming to act out of compassion and take others wealth to help people, because she was convinced they were liars.)
And was she against helping starving children?.
It’s true that Rand did not speak much of children in general. This is perhaps understandable, because she insisted that one has no right to expect what is “unearned.” This dichotomy between the earned and the unearned works best among adults, as opposed to children (or infants!)

I think Rand was very careful in her choice of words; if you can find one example of her praising compassion or sympathy, please send it : - ) She did say that, if you love someone, they become a value for your and thus helping them is not a sacrifice. However, she always insisted that love had to be earned, and that unearned love was immoral. The mere fact that an individual was a human being, in her mind–or, for that matter, that they hadn’t done anything specifically against you–did not thereby mean that they were deserving of your love.

I did find these couples of quotes, where–again–I think she chooses her words very carefully. Italics are mine.

"My views on charity are very simple. I do not consider it a major virtue and, above all, I do not consider it a moral duty. There is nothing wrong in helping other people, *if and when they are worthy of the help *and you can afford to help them. I regard charity as a marginal issue. What I am fighting is the idea that charity is a moral duty and a primary virtue.

Playboy, March 1964


I confess I have no idea what “worthy of help” signifies vis-a-vis children or the elderly, but I do know that she did not consider “need” a sufficient criterion of worthiness.

A second quote:

"The fact that a man has no claim on others (i.e., that it is not their moral duty to help him and that he cannot demand their help as his right) does not preclude or prohibit good will among men and does not make it immoral to offer or to accept voluntary, non-sacrificial assistance.

It is altruism that has corrupted and perverted human benevolence by regarding the giver as an object of immolation, and the receiver as a helplessly miserable object of pity who holds a mortgage on the lives of others—a doctrine which is extremely offensive to both parties, leaving men no choice but the roles of sacrificial victim or moral cannibal . . . .

To view the question in its proper perspective, one must begin by rejecting altruism’s terms and all of its ugly emotional aftertaste—then take a fresh look at human relationships. It is morally proper to accept help, when it is offered, not as a moral duty, but as an act of good will and generosity, when the giver can afford it (i.e., when it does not involve self-sacrifice on his part), and when it is offered in response to the receiver’s virtues, not in response to his flaws, weaknesses or moral failures, and not on the ground of his need as such.

This is a very demanding criteria of the circumstances by which charity is appropriate, in my mind. “Unconditional love” was not a word in her vocabulary – in fact, she regarded it as evil. I can speak safely for her in saying that she would have considered *agape * to be profoundly immoral, because it was the prostituting of one’s love (the giving of one’s love to those who hadn’t earned it).

Where did she write about the specific situation of starvation?

She was utterly uninterested in the question of starvation (I say this not frivolously, but as one who had read her writings, on and off, for over 15 years, including her personal journals). The most she would have said is that it is a moot issue, anyway, because it is capitalism that raises the standard of living, not collectivism. But she would have–and did–express contempt over the idea that we have a “moral obligation” to help those in need, as if “their need were a claim on our lives.”
Besides the use of force to avert starvation is morally questionable, because the one doing it normally could just sell his gun and spend the time working instead and buy food for the starving child. The situation would have to pretty unsual for force being the only option and in many such situations the owners life might also be in danger, potentially justiying his decision not to give. The only practical situation where using force to save life happens are normally emergency cases, e.g. injured person must get to hospital, so one steals a car.?.
I agree. Rand primarily was thinking of redistribution of wealth–through income tax–when she spoke of “charity by force.” If you refused to fund those “charitable efforts” with your tax dollars, you would be thrown in jail for tax evasion. She felt that this coercion was wrong, even in cases of extreme need–or presumed extreme need–of your fellow countrymen. For her, of course, this was a slippery slope into the totalitarianism of a police state.
carn;9670577:
Realy?

She advocated not caring about people dying?
She was absolutely indignant regarding the use of violence against others – a government that views its people as sacrificial animals, for example. In that sense, she was quite idealistic regarding human rights and the right to life. But she insisted, over and over again, that another person’s need alone is not a valid claim on one minute or your time or one farthing of what you’ve earned. Nor did she take pains to encourage charity (as I think the quote above makes clear, where she gives the impression of giving charity with as much difficulty as others give friendship or love!)
At least one of her disciples seems to be in favor of private charity:
aynrand.org/site/News2?id=13873&page=NewsArticle
"Some people can’t afford medical care in the U.S. But they are necessarily a small minority in a free or even semi-free country. If they were the majority, the country would be an utter bankrupt and could not even think of a national medical program. As to this small minority, in a free country they have to rely solely on private, voluntary charity. Yes, charity, the kindness of the doctors or of the better off—charity, not right, i.e. not their right to the lives or work of others. And such charity, I may say, was always forthcoming in the past in America. The advocates of Medicaid and Medicare under LBJ did not claim that the poor or old in the '60’s got bad care; they claimed that it was an affront for anyone to have to depend on charity.?

I have seen post-Rand Objectivist moderate or seek to flesh out some of her views. One area in which this is done, for example, is in acknowledging one’s emotions (many former Objectivists, including Barbara Branden, observed that Objectivism as Rand taught it promoted a certain “emotional repression” in the sense that reason dictated what you ought to feel; for example, because of the admiration that Barbara Branden had for her future husband’s intellect and sense of values, Ayn Rand had told her that she ought to be in love with him, and that not to love him would be immoral).

I think charity and benevolence is another area in which some of her later followers–while not contradicting anything she said, precisely–are nonetheless taking a more “generous” view of the matter than she herself did. I’ve read her journals and I know that she had a personal distaste for charitable giving as a virtue. She also expressed contempt for social workers, for example. I don’t say this lightly! She had contempt for anything that was unearned.

Nathaniel Branden himself–who, granted, was excommunicated from the movement–said that one of the things Objectivists tended to do is to “fill in the blanks” for Rand. In other words, “no, she never says that you ought to help children in need, but of course she means to imply it.” I think they are right, and that she had more of a problem with charity as such than may have met the eye.

Nor do I know if she ever gave to charity, or–if she did–if it was for a cause of raw human need, such as hunger.

What I do know is that she gave of herself, enormously, and did care about her fellow human beings in her own way (which sounds like a rationalization, so I have to smile at it : - ) ). She gave enormously of herself, which is evident in her letters.

Ironically, also, she respected the Catholic Church and wrote very favorably on Aquinas, who was admirably Aristotelian for her tastes.

But there was that other side to her, like when she has a character in Atlas Shrugged (one of the villains) say, “did you see the doorknobs we helped make for the little slum children?” She couldn’t stand human beings that she needed to look down to – in other words, those that she would have had to pick up off the floor, or out of the gutter. She only wanted to look up, wanted to admire what she felt was the “highest” in her fellow man.

I think that arrogant edge, that “demandingness” in her, which I’ve tried to bring out somewhat in my above words, was definitely there. She was a very demanding individual, not least of all as regarded love or human affection.
 
well one thing is for sure, she is a lightning rod for controversy. she makes you think. she makes you think from different angles. which is another way of saying she makes you think differently. which is good, especially for young adults. it broadens your perspective and deepens your ability to view issues from a number of sides. I would say there is definitely value in reading her, but again, for what it’s worth, and while remaining virtuous. i think she definitely enjoyed her celebrity, and the fact that she was a shocking and outspoken woman at a time where there were not many, gave her an irresistible megaphone which of course she used. it may also have caused her to be a little more shocking and outspoken than she may have otherwise been. her voice may not have even been heard if she came 40-50 years later…

============

Tune In - to the Holy Spirit; Turn On - to Jesus Christ; Drop Out - of the culture of death…
 
p.s. I did find this quote regarding Ayn Rand and children. It starts out sounding compatible with a Christian ethic but then, by the end of her statement, diverges *widely. * She says that even children need to earn the love of their parents and that there is no moral duty, per se, to love one’s child. Love of neighbor is thus *never *a duty and the criteria for giving love is not others’ need of it, but their worthiness of it. If they don’t deserve love, in your eyes, you don’t have to give it to them.

Question: Why should a mother love her newborn infant who is still too young to have done anything to earn her love?

RAND: You don’t really mean this as a serious question. To begin with, if the mother is a responsible, rational human being, she does not have a baby by accident; she has him by choice. At first, a child has a value to her simply because it is a human being created—physically, at least—by her. The child’s parents owe him support until the legal age of 21, which means until such time as he can support himself. This is a chosen obligation that rational parents accept when they decide to have a child. They have to accept the consequences of their own decision. But do they have to love the child? No, not necessarily. That will depend on their evaluation of his character, as he grows up. He has to earn their love—as they have to earn his.
 
The problem with Rand is her individualistic viewpoint. John Galt gives her viewpoint in “Atlas Shrugged,” which is that no one is above man, not even God. Man becomes all-powerful, totally sufficient on his own. This is against Catholic doctrine which says man is totally dependent on God.
 
Saint Maximilian Kolbe on Catholic Social Teaching and the Distribution of Wealth

When he sees the luxurious residence or the charming country house of a wealthy person, a poor workingman often asks himself: “Why is there such inequality in the world?”

How many volumes have been written about equality among men! How much blood has been spilled for this idea! And yet, in spite of it all, we still have the rich and the poor…

Let us imagine that one day all the inhabitants of the world would assemble to put into effect this sharing of all goods; and that in fact each person, granted that the world is very big, received an exactly equal portion of the wealth existing on earth.

Then what? That very evening one man might say, “Today I worked hard: now I am going to take rest.” Another might state, “I understand this sharing of goods well; so let’s drink and celebrate such an extraordinary happening.” On the other hand, another might say, “Now I am going to set to work with a will so as to reap the greatest benefit I can from what I have received.” And so, starting on the next day, the first man would have only the amount given him; the second would have less, and the third would have increased his.

Then what do we do? Start redistributing the wealth all over again?

Even if everybody began to work right away with all his might and at the same time, the results would not be identical for all. There are, in fact, different kinds of work which are unequally productive; nor do all workers enjoy the same identical capacities. This leads to a diversity of results achieved, and consequently to differences in people’s profits.
 
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