What is mortal sin?

[BluegrassJimmie]

Matt16_18:

Many Protestants believe that their conscience is the ultimate arbiter of truth, but that is Protestant heresy. The Catholic Church has always rejected the “mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience”.

I agree completely. Our consciences cannot be the arbiters of truth.

That said, neither can a church catechism as our consciences will pollute true doctrine. This is evidenced by the zillions of denominations out there…

But where does that leave us? Sola scriptura?

 

[Lazerlike42]

BluegrassJimmie:

I agree completely. Our consciences cannot be the arbiters of truth.

That said, neither can a church catechism as our consciences will pollute true doctrine. This is evidenced by the zillions of denominations out there…

But where does that leave us? Sola scriptura?

Sola Scriputura turns the reader into the ultimate arbitrator of truth.

“When you take Scripture as your final authority, that’s actually you being the final authority in interpreting it.”

Read this sentence and then scroll down:

I never said you were stupid.

It could mean many things. It could mean:

I never said you were stupid.

I never said you were stupid.

I never said you were stupid.

I never said you were stupid.

I never said you were stupid.

Reading Scripture is like reading that sentence. It’s meaning depends completely on the interpretation of the reader. Often times, even the context of Scripture only eliminates one of two possible meanings. Also, especially when it comes to the epistles, we often don’t even know what the context is. Most of Paul’s letters, for example, are just responses answering questions. Often, he says some random one sentence reply, such as, “As far as X is concerned, do Y.” Unless we know what the question (X) is, we have no idea what it means to do what Paul tells us (Y). This is why using only Scripture is the same as making the reader the ultimate authority.

 

[Matt16_18]

BluegrassJimmie:

I agree completely. Our consciences cannot be the arbiters of truth.

That said, neither can a church catechism as our consciences will pollute true doctrine. This is evidenced by the zillions of denominations out there…

But where does that leave us? Sola scriptura?

The fact that there are thousands of Protestant denominations that teach conflicting moral doctrine does not prove that the Catholic Church teaches error in matters of faith and morals.

God is omnipotent, and God preserves his church from teaching error in matters of morality. The Catholic Church cannot teach error in matters of morality because God won’t allow his church to become corrupted in this manner. If Christ’s church ever became a source of heresy and false moral teaching, it would be a tool of Satan, and not an instrument of Salvation.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

God is omnipotent, and God preserves his church from teaching error in matters of morality. The Catholic Church cannot teach error in matters of morality because God won’t allow it.

This is a great evidence for the Church. God protects Popes from teaching fallibly on matters of faith and morals even by the power of death. This means that God would strike a Pope dead before he could teach something wrong. This starts to get interesting when we consider all the Popes who died very shortly after taking office, such as Pope John Paul I.

 

[BluegrassJimmie]

Whoa, whoa, whoa… I am not trying to prove anything.

God is omnipotent,

Yes!

and God preserves his church from teaching error in matters of morality.

Does He?

The Catholic Church cannot teach error in matters of morality because God won’t allow it.

He won’t?

Let me ask you this, point blank. Is the Roman Catholic Church the only way to Heaven?

 

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

God protects Popes from teaching fallibly on matters of faith and morals even by the power of death. This means that God would strike a Pope dead before he could teach something wrong.

God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead for lying.

If a pope decided to spread a lie by speaking* ex cathedra*, God has the power to prevent that from ever happening. God wouldn’t necessarily have to strike a pope dead to prevent that from happening - he could just strike him mute as he did the priest Zechariah, or he could get the King Saul treatment, or …

 

[Matt16_18]

BluegrassJimmie:

Let me ask you this, point blank. Is the Roman Catholic Church the only way to Heaven?

There is no salvation outside the Church.

 

[Lazerlike42]

The Catholic Church is the only way to Heaven. (The Roman Catholic Church is not, because like I said it is only one rite of the Catholic Church. There are a lot of other rites (20 something I believe).

When we say there is no salvation outside the Church, its important to remember this: ALL baptized persons are a part of the Catholic Church, even if they don’t know it, want to be, or listen to the Pope. Some, or even many, Protestants will probably be saved, but because they are a part of the Catholic Church through baptism.

 

[BluegrassJimmie]

So salvation is from the church. Gotcha, thanks.

Completely contradictory to scripture.

 

[Matt16_18]

BluegrassJimmie:

So salvation is from the church. Gotcha, thanks.

Completely contradictory to scripture.

No, affirmed by scripture.

Christ’s church is comprised of the both the vine and the branches attached to the vine."I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:1-6

The branches that are apart from the vine are “thrown into the fire and burned.” That is why there is no salvation outside the church.

The branches that don’t bear good fruit get lopped off the vine by the vinedresser.

 

[Lazerlike42]

BluegrassJimmie:

So salvation is from the church. Gotcha, thanks.

Completely contradictory to scripture.

This is not what he said. He said there is no salvation outside the Church, and I expanded on it. He never said salvation is literally from the Church.

In ancient times, there was no Covenant outside of Israel. This didn’t mean that the Covenant was from Israel. It was given by God to those who were members of the nation of Israel. Today, salvation is given by God to those who are members of the Catholic Church through baptism.

 

[jimmy]

BluegrassJimmie:

I agree completely. Our consciences cannot be the arbiters of truth.

That said, neither can a church catechism as our consciences will pollute true doctrine. This is evidenced by the zillions of denominations out there…

But where does that leave us? Sola scriptura?

That is such a complex idea. Our conscience would corrupt scripture as well. The most important thing is humility. We must read scripture, the catechism and live our lives with the idea that Truth is completely above me. I can not change Truth. We must make ourselves subject to it.

 

[jimmy]

BluegrassJimmie:

So salvation is from the church. Gotcha, thanks.

Completely contradictory to scripture.

I think you misunderstood what he said. Salvation is not from the Church, but through it. God gives salvation to His Church. Everyone who recieves salvation recieves it through the Church, as a member. It is a grave matter to be outside the Church which Christ created because Christ never gave us permission to be outside it.

Now, we can relate this to the topic of the thread. Say I knows with all my heart that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which Christ created. Jack, down the street, has no idea that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but he is a very devout Christian and would never offend God. Say I reject the teachings of the Church, knowing they have been given authority. That is a mortal sin and I will certainly go to hell. This is because by rejecting the truth, I am rejecting God Himself. Jack though could be saved because he is a devout Christian and did not know he was rejecting the Truth and did not do it with free will.

Now, Jack even though he is not a full member of the Catholic Church formally is certainly a member in a way because he follows God as closely as he knows. He has also recieved baptism, which is how a person is introduced into the Church.