What is normal and healthy affection between a granddaughter and her grandfather?

[Abundant]

I also recalled that last time we were together, my FIL got himself caught absent-mindedly pulling on the back of her pants and panties to look down her pants. Almost like a parent might check a diaper. Only she was already 8 years old by that point! I looked at him after he did it, and he looked like he had surprised himself at such a breech of propriety and boundaries. I asked my husband soon after to talk to his father, which he never did.

I just read this part (after I posted my original response). That does NOT sound normal at all. I would expect that if it were a toddler and they were checking for a dirty diaper, but that’s it. I know it’s too late now, but if you ever see something like that again I would immediately say, “What exactly are you doing looking in her pants?” and call attention to the behavior with other people around so he is 1-aware that you notice, 2-embarassed 3-aware that now everyone sees it now too. He will probably make up a quick excuse or something, and then you say (again, in front of everyone) “Well, please don’t do that. She is 8 years old and doesn’t need a grown man looking in her pants (reaching up the back of her shirt, etc.)” Then just walk away.

If he continues to make excuses or make you feel like you are being dramatic, then all of the more reason to suspect him and tell him so, “I don’t know why you are so upset about it unless you’re doing something wrong.”

As for your husband, since it is his father, give him a fair warning. Tell him, “I know it is your dad so the next time I see something I am going to tell you and give you a chance to talk to him. If you don’t, then I will. I mean no disrespect to you, but I have to make sure that I protect our daughter. Even if that means hurting your dad’s feelings.”

 

[Xantippe]

Abundant said:

"As for your husband, since it is his father, give him a fair warning. Tell him, “I know it is your dad so the next time I see something I am going to tell you and give you a chance to talk to him. If you don’t, then I will. I mean no disrespect to you, but I have to make sure that I protect our daughter. Even if that means hurting your dad’s feelings.”

That seems like a reasonable approach.

Of course, if the husband isn’t present, mommamaree will have to speak up.

In either case, give advance warning.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I also recalled that last time we were together, my FIL got himself caught absent-mindedly pulling on the back of her pants and panties to look down her pants. Almost like a parent might check a diaper. Only she was already 8 years old by that point! I looked at him after he did it, and he looked like he had surprised himself at such a breech of propriety and boundaries.

Ok that does sound odd…

 

[Cricket2]

What the thread title says…

In my family during my childhood, there was child sexual abuse and incest occurring between people I loved. So now, I am very careful with my children. I am starting to have anxiety attacks when my FIL visits because of his level and type of affection with my oldest daughter. He doesn’t act that way with my other children (at least not yet). I am losing my ability to trust this man, and start to get afraid whenever he takes her off on an errand. My internal alarms are sounding off ALL THE TIME now. I am also angry at him for setting the alarms off, and feeling resentful that he is casually petting my daughter in front of me. My husband had never noticed it, because he is usually occupied with the other children out of sight.
He reaches up under the back of her shirt, and up the legs of her pants, rubs her feet, etc. I am freaking out. She seems to like it, which disturbs me even more.

Is this normal/healthy? Please help.

If your alarm is going off listen to it. It is there for a reason. Keep all your children away from him as much as possible and don’t let them go alone with him. I have said it before and will continue too: Incest occurs in 33% of all families. You need to make sure your daughter knows what is appropriate and what is not.

Time to sit down with her and have an age appropriate discussion.

 

[mommamaree]

It sounds strange however I have always tickled my 16year old brother so have gone up the back of his shirt or trouser leg…however it’s obvious I’m tickling him (he usually laughs and curls up into a ball plus he is 6ft 6 and stronger than me do could stop me if he wanted)…so it’s difficult to say without seeing it…how does your daughter feel? Does she laugh when he does it? Does he say things like “I’m coming to get you” - this will all give it a play feel as opposed to no laughter, no talking and him stroking/feeling her which is wrong…

Do you see what I mean, you could be sensitive from your past but it depends on which one of the above is actually occurring?

Yes, this helps greatly. Thanks. I had no grandfather, and my father was absent from my life from the age of 6. I don’t know what paternal or fraternal affection looks like.

 

[mommamaree]

My husband and I found a few private opportunities to talk about this and this is what we are thinking. This is my FIL’s first grandchild. For years, she was his only grandbaby. My husband and I recalled all of the snuggling the grand pair have always done. I am very aware of how much my daughter has grown up, and I am very aware of how few years are left until she enters young womanhood. She is nearly shoulder height on me already, and I am a tall woman. However, for my FIL, he still sees her as his grand baby, and treats her as such.
My husband believes that this was an accidental breech, and after having time for the anxiety attack to pass, I am inclined to agree with him. The looking inside of the pants thing was disturbing, and the FIL knew I saw him. It was like he was checking a diaper, but forgot himself and the age of the child of his lap. I watched him carefully after that, but until yesterday, had never seen anything else of concern.
My husband and I are in agreement that he needs to privately talk to his dad. His dad really should know about some of what happened in my family, and he needs to be made aware that he needs to be more understanding of new boundaries as his grandchildren grow up. We are choosing to treat this as an innocent mistake which can be corrected civilly instead of creating a huge drama. My husband is very appreciative of my determination to leave the room and give FIL the benefit of the doubt. The thing is, I have gotten so used to betrayal at the hands of a family member or close friend of the family that it is possible that I am jumping at shadows. So, an earnest conversation in the future for my husband, and increased vigilance on both our parts (not that I was ever less than vigilant), and continuing to teach my daughter about modesty and boundaries (for her own sake).
I hope that is good enough. Sometimes it feels like incest and molestation are palpable entities stalking me and my children. Already in my few years as a mother, the danger of exploitation and incest has come so close to us as to be a near miss on several occasions, despite being so vigilant.

 

[LongingSoul]

mommamaree, you should perhaps have therapy about your past for yourself. It sounds like you still have a scared little child reacting from within and while yes, it can cloud your judgement… it can also cause you to be impotent in authority in protecting your children in the future. It’s important for you as a mother to be amply equipped for good discernment and some therapy devoted to your own abuse would really be healing.

 

[Anne_Jane]

My instincts are he is going over the edge. Don’t let her go alone with him. When he does sometime that sets your alarms off, calming move in and step between them or call her to help you as someone else suggested. I have 2 grandsons and 15 granddaughters. I would have a fit if my husband did anything like you describe. Where is the grandmother in all of this. Tickling and roughhousing is one thing but this seems to have sexual overtones to me. Prayers for you.

 

[mommamaree]

Thank you. I did react poorly today, at least internally. In order to prevent myself from grabbingng her away and screaming at him, I left the room. My husband feels that leaving was the right thing. I feel like I should have acted on my instinct. So I don’t know whether or not I did do right or wrong.
I do still have a lot of trauma I am dealing with. I tried counseling. It did not work. I do not want to sit there and talk to the counselor about this. She can’t fix it or erase what happened. She can’t tell me it is not a threat when person after person in my life and in the lives of my children commits egregious boundary violations. The only person I can trust with my kids is me and my husband. Period. Every single other person has betrayed us or has betrayed others. I had help from a deacon’s family with child care the night of the Easter vigil when we were confirmed, and it turned out that family member was secretly a drug-abusing incestuous molester. It appears my daughter was miraculously spared predation that night, but we still watch for signs.
So counseling didn’t help me then and I doubt it will help me now. What in the world is a counselor gonna do that will make this alright ?

 

[Sahara_DeSert]

He winced as I described the behavior to him. He has never witnessed it, as my FIL has never done it in his presence. But to me it seems to be a blatant challenge to me as her mother about what I will allow or not. I have to admit I am intimidated and also afraid of being wrong. My instincts were to grab her off of his lap and tell him not to ever touch my children that way again. But I left the room to try to calm down and avoid either screaming or vomiting, because my husband was ignoring the issue and tells me I have no reason to NOT trust his father. I feel like his father’s behavior gives me EVERY reason to NOT trust him!

Please do NOT leave the room! Better you vomit! Leaving the room may give the impression, to your daughter, that you don’t care. Or worse, that you think it is fine.

 

[acadiANNA]

Totally inappropriate. This is not normal or healthy. Your FIL is a bum. Your husband is in denial. Protect your child even if your husband is not on board. Never leave the two of them alone in your home or in a car. Too many men get away with this because they become creative in justifying what they do. But it is all wrong. I pray that God will give you the courage to speak and act in defense of your daughter before this continues.

 

[LongingSoul]

Thank you. I did react poorly today, at least internally. In order to prevent myself from grabbingng her away and screaming at him, I left the room. My husband feels that leaving was the right thing. I feel like I should have acted on my instinct. So I don’t know whether or not I did do right or wrong.
I do still have a lot of trauma I am dealing with. I tried counseling. It did not work. I do not want to sit there and talk to the counselor about this. She can’t fix it or erase what happened. She can’t tell me it is not a threat when person after person in my life and in the lives of my children commits egregious boundary violations. The only person I can trust with my kids is me and my husband. Period. Every single other person has betrayed us or has betrayed others. I had help from a deacon’s family with child care the night of the Easter vigil when we were confirmed, and it turned out that family member was secretly a drug-abusing incestuous molester. It appears my daughter was miraculously spared predation that night, but we still watch for signs.
So counseling didn’t help me then and I doubt it will help me now. What in the world is a counselor gonna do that will make this alright ?

It’s not that a counsellor is going to fix you in the way a medical doctor fixes an injury… What counselling helps you do is see the past through your adult perspective where you are still seeing it through your childhood perspective. You still have the sense of being stalked and threatened in the way a child feels. But the truth is that you as an adult have within you resources to protect and deflect threats. Most children who are subject to abuse can be identified as ‘vulnerable’. That is that there is some element in their upbringing missing that provides a natural defense against abuse. Your fears and anxieties can and should be quelled by your sense of power to protect and nurture your children in this sometimes threatening world.

Counselling, over time, would help you to feel your adult authority and you can give your children something that you didn’t have as a child that will make them less ‘vulnerable’. I very strongly encourage you to pursue counselling with that in mind. Don’t discount the healing work of counselling because you can’t see an instant result. I’ve personally witnessed some subtle but profound transformations in people through counselling. (I’m not a counsellor but have worked as a volunteer with a Catholic counselling org for more than 10 years)

 

[Mimi20]

I do still have a lot of trauma I am dealing with. I tried counseling. It did not work. I do not want to sit there and talk to the counselor about this. She can’t fix it or erase what happened. She can’t tell me it is not a threat when person after person in my life and in the lives of my children commits egregious boundary violations. …
So counseling didn’t help me then and I doubt it will help me now. What in the world is a counselor gonna do that will make this alright ?

It’s good you recognize that you’re still dealing with trauma, but what benefit have you gained from not talking with an experienced professional over this? You need to help yourself and talk with a good counselor. (Note: I underlined ‘good’. A good counselor isn’t going to set back time and “fix” what happened. No one can. But you can unburden yourself in a safe environment. Cry, talk, all of the above, but be proactive to gain skills to cope, and learn how to create the healthy boundaries for yourself so that you can pass those skills onto your children.)

 

[mommamaree]

It’s not that a counsellor is going to fix you in the way a medical doctor fixes an injury… What counselling helps you do is see the past through your adult perspective where you are still seeing it through your childhood perspective. You still have the sense of being stalked and threatened in the way a child feels. But the truth is that you as an adult have within you resources to protect and deflect threats. Most children who are subject to abuse can be identified as ‘vulnerable’. That is that there is some element in their upbringing missing that provides a natural defense against abuse. Your fears and anxieties can and should be quelled by your sense of power to protect and nurture your children in this sometimes threatening world.

Counselling, over time, would help you to feel your adult authority and you can give your children something that you didn’t have as a child that will make them less ‘vulnerable’. I very strongly encourage you to pursue counselling with that in mind. Don’t discount the healing work of counselling because you can’t see an instant result. I’ve personally witnessed some subtle but profound transformations in people through counselling. (I’m not a counsellor but have worked as a volunteer with a Catholic counselling org for more than 10 years)

But see, the abuse happened to my siblings and between them, and I couldn’t protect them, even as their much older sibling. I was not sexually abused, it happened at times when others were watching my siblings.
And now, I keep finding out that people I should have been able to trust to watch my own children do not respect boundaries or care about the well-being of my children. So, since I can trust no one, I trust no one.
I am not discounting counseling entirely, but it doesn’t exactly help me in the present crisis.

 

[7armyrugrats]

It may be possible that your FIL isn’t a real threat, but the mom in me would also see it as he was. He is behaving inappropriately to say the least. I have a feeling he means no harm and that he is really no danger. But I would keep my kids–all of them–in clear sight of me and a full arms reach from him anyway. Better safe than sorry

 

[mommamaree]

It’s good you recognize that you’re still dealing with trauma, but what benefit have you gained from not talking with an experienced professional over this? You need to help yourself and talk with a good counselor. (Note: I underlined ‘good’. A good counselor isn’t going to set back time and “fix” what happened. No one can. But you can unburden yourself in a safe environment. Cry, talk, all of the above, but be proactive to gain skills to cope, and learn how to create the healthy boundaries for yourself so that you can pass those skills onto your children.)

I have tried to set those boundaries, and have addressed boundary violations in the past, which is why his behavior felt like a blatant challenge. I have repeatedly taught my children about inappropriate touching. That is why I am so confused by what I have been witnessing recently. My FIL started his visit speaking about looking at nude pictures because I wanted to preview any Google search before she looked. My daughter was present when he was talking about enjoying a nude picture now and then. I sent my daughter out of the room immediately. Then the FIL also talked about molesters living in his neighborhood and how cautious parents are these days. So what is this all about?! Why would he behave this way?!

 

[Mimi20]

But see, the abuse happened to my siblings and between them, and I couldn’t protect them, even as their much older sibling. I was not sexually abused, it happened at times when others were watching my siblings.
And now, I keep finding out that people I should have been able to trust to watch my own children do not respect boundaries or care about the well-being of my children. So, since I can trust no one, I trust no one.
I am not discounting counseling entirely, but it doesn’t exactly help me in the present crisis.
…
I have tried to set those boundaries, and have addressed boundary violations in the past, which is why his behavior felt like a blatant challenge. I have repeatedly taught my children about inappropriate touching. That is why I am so confused by what I have been witnessing recently. My FIL started his visit speaking about looking at nude pictures because I wanted to preview any Google search before she looked. My daughter was present when he was talking about enjoying a nude picture now and then. I sent my daughter out of the room immediately. Then the FIL also talked about molesters living in his neighborhood and how cautious parents are these days. So what is this all about?! Why would he behave this way?!

In light of those facts, for your own benefit, it is still strongly urged that you attend counseling. You don’t have to have been the direct victim to have still been affected. Counseling may not the immediate ‘catch all’ answer to your foremost problem, but long term it will benefit immensely when you work with a good person. It’s not a ‘one visit cure-all’ but a process. It may likely take time to heal and develop any possible skills you may need, and that’s ok!
When you’re immersed in the middle of something for so long without any knowledge of what to do, everything is clouded more than it should; worst of all is judgement. You did right by not allowing your daughter to be present during that conversation, but you may need to acquire more personal strength in drawing various boundaries. It takes practice to stand up for yourself/family and be self-assured. While that was undoubtedly a one-sided conversation, he had no right to be talking of such an inappropriate subject in front of your daughter or for that matter in your household. Your feelings are certainly justified, but there is only so much advice we can offer through a screen. Ask God to lead you in the right direction, and to aid your search of a counselor. That they may be a force of aid for you to heal, grow in knowledge of healthy boundaries, behavior, strength, and courage. And That you find the fortitude to take the necessary steps and measures to become the strong person you’ve always had the potential to be. You’ll be in the prayers of this community. God Bless.

 

[7armyrugrats]

I have tried to set those boundaries, and have addressed boundary violations in the past, which is why his behavior felt like a blatant challenge. I have repeatedly taught my children about inappropriate touching. That is why I am so confused by what I have been witnessing recently. My FIL started his visit speaking about looking at nude pictures because I wanted to preview any Google search before she looked. My daughter was present when he was talking about enjoying a nude picture now and then. I sent my daughter out of the room immediately. Then the FIL also talked about molesters living in his neighborhood and how cautious parents are these days. So what is this all about?! Why would he behave this way?!

Did he not realize daughter was in ear shot when he commented? Maybe he was embarrassed and tried to cover his embarrassment. Sometimes men do and say stupid things and if they get embarrassed by it they can come off with something even worse and the whole time they are truly embarrassed and that makes them mad.

Also, has he always behaved and spoken like this or is this something new? There are health problems that can cause changes like these in people who previously were more trustworthy. How old is he? You don’t need to answer, just somethings to think about.

I still stand by my advice to keep kids supervised by you and out of arms reach from him nonetheless. I also suggest talking to your daughter about inappropriate touching isn’t just about strangers and non family members. It’s also about l

 

[7armyrugrats]

I have tried to set those boundaries, and have addressed boundary violations in the past, which is why his behavior felt like a blatant challenge. I have repeatedly taught my children about inappropriate touching. That is why I am so confused by what I have been witnessing recently. My FIL started his visit speaking about looking at nude pictures because I wanted to preview any Google search before she looked. My daughter was present when he was talking about enjoying a nude picture now and then. I sent my daughter out of the room immediately. Then the FIL also talked about molesters living in his neighborhood and how cautious parents are these days. So what is this all about?! Why would he behave this way?!

Did he not realize daughter was in ear shot when he commented? Maybe he was embarrassed and tried to cover his embarrassment. Sometimes men do and say stupid things and if they get embarrassed by it they can come off with something even worse and the whole time they are truly embarrassed and that makes them mad.

Also, has he always behaved and spoken like this or is this something new? There are health problems that can cause changes like these in people who previously were more trustworthy. How old is he? You don’t need to answer, just somethings to think about.

I still stand by my advice to keep kids supervised by you and out of arms reach from him nonetheless. I also suggest talking to your daughter about inappropriate touching isn’t just about strangers and non family members. It’s also about loved ones and close friends

 

[Xantippe]

7armyrugrats said:

“Also, has he always behaved and spoken like this or is this something new? There are health problems that can cause changes like these in people who previously were more trustworthy.”

Exactly. One of the first signs that one of my great-uncles was getting dementia was that he started being inappropriate with waitresses, to the point that nobody wanted to go out to restaurants with him. Loss of inhibitions (for instance, a sudden attack of overspending in a tight-wad) can be a sign of some sort of mental deterioration.

In any case, no unchaperoned contact with children.

Mommamaree,

You are the mom. You are in charge. Nobody gets to be with your kids without your say so and without dancing to your tune.

Definitely do some sort of counseling to work this out and to practice speaking up for yourself and your kids, but in the meantime, you don’t have to put up with any situation or person that makes you uncomfortable. You will eventually need to get your mommy alarm recalibrated, but in the meantime, you can’t leave it beeping non-stop, because that’s just not safe for your family or humane for you.

Your husband has to understand that you cannot act in a way that makes you feel that you are neglecting your children or exposing them to harm. You need to feel safe.

Bear in mind what somebody was saying upthread about vulnerability. Remember that sexual abuse does not strike at random. If you are an involved, attentive parent, it is much less likely than if your kids are neglected and emotionally needy. The more loving people there are in their lives, the less likely than any predatory adult is going to be able to take advantage of their loneliness and emotional needs. Trusting more people will actually make them safer. Just hunkering down in the nuclear family bunker will not protect them.

Best wishes!