What is normal and healthy affection between a granddaughter and her grandfather?

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I had a very long talk with my husband, and later a long talk with my daughter. About boundaries and protecting one’s modesty and how the body is holy. My husband is rightly disturbed that this keeps happening when he is out of line of sight. He is going to address it with his dad and I am going to keep working gently with my daughter.
Thank you all so much. It is good to know I am not crazy and that this kind of physical contact is inappropriate. I will read the rest of the responses from earlier at another time, when I have more of a moment, but again I thank you.
 
I don’t like it. At all.

mommamaree, think of it this way, would it be appropriate for someone other than your husband to put his hands up the back of your shirt or pull the back of your pants and look down at your bottom? Would it be appropriate in public? Why did he need to look at her bottom? What possible reason could he have?

Pretend that instead of it being your FIL, what venue would it be appropriate for a man to say, “I enjoy looking at a nude picture now and then.” If your boss said that to you, or a teacher in a school?

While what your father in law’s actions don’t seem to be direct molestation, he is a grownup and he is invading the personal space of a little girl.

I had an extremely close relationship with my dad. I would sit on his lap, hug him, give good night kisses, goodnight stories. Those are all appropriate.

What your fil did makes you feel uneasy because it isn’t appropriate.
 
mommamaree said:
My husband and I found a few private opportunities to talk about this and this is what we are thinking. This is my FIL’s first grandchild. For years, she was his only grandbaby. My husband and I recalled all of the snuggling the grand pair have always done. I am very aware of how much my daughter has grown up, and I am very aware of how few years are left until she enters young womanhood. She is nearly shoulder height on me already, and I am a tall woman. However, for my FIL, he still sees her as his grand baby, and treats her as such.
My husband believes that this was an accidental breech, and after having time for the anxiety attack to pass, I am inclined to agree with him. The looking inside of the pants thing was disturbing, and the FIL knew I saw him. It was like he was checking a diaper, but forgot himself and the age of the child of his lap. I watched him carefully after that, but until yesterday, had never seen anything else of concern.
My husband and I are in agreement that he needs to privately talk to his dad. His dad really should know about some of what happened in my family, and he needs to be made aware that he needs to be more understanding of new boundaries as his grandchildren grow up. We are choosing to treat this as an innocent mistake which can be corrected civilly instead of creating a huge drama. My husband is very appreciative of my determination to leave the room and give FIL the benefit of the doubt. The thing is, I have gotten so used to betrayal at the hands of a family member or close friend of the family that it is possible that I am jumping at shadows. So, an earnest conversation in the future for my husband, and increased vigilance on both our parts (not that I was ever less than vigilant), and continuing to teach my daughter about modesty and boundaries (for her own sake).
I hope that is good enough. Sometimes it feels like incest and molestation are palpable entities stalking me and my children. Already in my few years as a mother, the danger of exploitation and incest has come so close to us as to be a near miss on several occasions, despite being so vigilant.
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What troubles me is the idea that grandpa needs to have boundaries explained at all. Both of my grandfathers never gave a sign of such behavior or the need to have it explained. They were both very aware of privacy issues and the problems associated with inappropriate contact, behavior and touch. There was no guessing and there was never a need for suspicion.

All of the children need an age appropriate discussion. Your husband needs to make sure his dad is clear on the boundaries and if he won’t you must do this. Don’t risk her safety and emotional well being.
 
It does not matter what grandpa’s intentions are. He might mean no harm. We can’t know that. Regardless of his intentions, his actions are inappropriate and he needs to stop!
 
I just have a couple things to mention in this conversation:

(1) Have you discussed your husband’s childhood? What passed for modest in his household growing up? In essence, I’m wondering if there is something your husband isn’t sharing with you.

(2) Part of the reason he could be afraid to share openly with you would be because he thinks you will condemn his father. He loves his father, and he may feel that – if he is open – you will drive a permanent wedge between him and his father.

(3) Imagine the worst case scenario, that your FIL is interested in your daughter sexually. Even so, he is a human being. He is not a monster. You cannot approach this situation merely out of concern for your daughter. She is your special responsibility, and I agree with other posters that she should not be alone with this man. (This is a protection for him, too). But he should not be demonized. His mind is clouded, perhaps by years of sin, and he thinks his behavior is acceptable.

A side note: One of the posters said that the fact he is doing this in front of you speaks to his having good intentions. It might. But it also might mean that he has lost self-control to a point where he lacks proper shame, and merely tries to avoid confrontation. Sadly, this is not uncommon, with sexual sin.
 
ProdigalSon said:

“A side note: One of the posters said that the fact he is doing this in front of you speaks to his having good intentions. It might. But it also might mean that he has lost self-control to a point where he lacks proper shame, and merely tries to avoid confrontation. Sadly, this is not uncommon, with sexual sin.”

Yes.
 
My father used to tell his friends who visited, “We don’t talk about that in front of the kids,” or, “We don’t speak about that in this house”, when someone began a conversation that was inappropriate. Also using ‘curse’ words. I do the same in my home. God lives in my house and no one will dishonor him.
 
Xantippe said:
ProdigalSon said:

“A side note: One of the posters said that the fact he is doing this in front of you speaks to his having good intentions. It might. But it also might mean that he has lost self-control to a point where he lacks proper shame, and merely tries to avoid confrontation. Sadly, this is not uncommon, with sexual sin.”

Yes.
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It is more likely that he is “grooming” the adults to make them less suspicious of his behavior. Any adult should be aware of what is and is not appropriate touch and affection toward a child. This man is out of line.

One thing I am becoming more perplexed by is the apparent lack of knowledge the children of today seem to have, for their age. My siblings and I knew about the “birds and the bees” well before we were 8 years of age. My mother made sure we were taught, and as she was raised on a farm she knew all about this subject prior by the age of 5. How is it that we have children these days who don’t seem to understand anything well into their teens or at least by the age of 9?

We also understood what was acceptable and not acceptable in terms of touch, who should and should not be touching us and how and/or under what circumstances. We had some cousins who were taught nothing by their mother because she just wouldn’t discuss “those subjects” with her kids. Well two of them landed up the victims of a neighbor that was a sexual predator. I wonder why? Ignorance is NOT bliss.
 
Cricket2 said:
It is more likely that he is “grooming” the adults to make them less suspicious of his behavior. Any adult should be aware of what is and is not appropriate touch and affection toward a child. This man is out of line.

One thing I am becoming more perplexed by is the apparent lack of knowledge the children of today seem to have, for their age. My siblings and I knew about the “birds and the bees” well before we were 8 years of age. My mother made sure we were taught, and as she was raised on a farm she knew all about this subject prior by the age of 5. How is it that we have children these days who don’t seem to understand anything well into their teens or at least by the age of 9?

We also understood what was acceptable and not acceptable in terms of touch, who should and should not be touching us and how and/or under what circumstances. We had some cousins who were taught nothing by their mother because she just wouldn’t discuss “those subjects” with her kids. Well two of them landed up the victims of a neighbor that was a sexual predator. I wonder why? Ignorance is NOT bliss.
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I am as perplexed as you. I have been teaching my daughter (and all of my children) about modesty from day one. It is like I am talking to a brick wall. They are not getting the message. Add to that, adults do not understand boundaries. Yesterday, I thought I was losing my mind because of how my FIL was behaving, and my husband never saw ANY of it. The last time I did stand up to my FIL, it was over this same child, and boy did that turn into explosive drama. I got yelled at and then he talked bad about me to other family members and then he gave me the silent treatment. On the day of his daughter’s wedding. Because I asked him to let me handle a behavior problem with my daughter myself without him telling me to be quiet and let her do what she wants.
I don’t want this to be a gripe session about my FIL, whom I do love. But this is the context for why I needed my husband to be on my side and aware of what was happening. Thankfully, now he knows and he is rightfully disturbed and knows something must be done, including never allowing alone time again.
I woke up this morning and thought “could this really have happened? Did I really just see my FIL (my dad, really, as he had been in my life since I was a girl and I have no father figure of my own in my life) inappropriately touching my daughter. How could this happen? But why else would I have an anxiety attack over how he was touching her, unless he was putting off creepy signals?!”
After being abused and gas-lighted by my own mother and neglected and disowned by both father and adoptive father, I got really used to doubting myself and assuming I am at fault for everything. I got really good at being the first to apologize. But this is something I cannot deny. I am so sad. Why would he do such things? How could he be innocent, when his actions were objectively so disturbing. He did it one last time before he left after his long visit this week, and this time he was squeezing and caressing her upper thighs, right next to her buttocks. I got up, gave my husband a very pointed look, and he told my daughter to get up to go do something. I want to believe he is just ignorant, but three times in one visit, with me wanting to vomit each time, and somehow always doing it when my husband was out of line of sight?!
 
mommamaree said:
I am as perplexed as you. I have been teaching my daughter (and all of my children) about modesty from day one. It is like I am talking to a brick wall. They are not getting the message. Add to that, adults do not understand boundaries. Yesterday, I thought I was losing my mind because of how my FIL was behaving, and my husband never saw ANY of it. The last time I did stand up to my FIL, it was over this same child, and boy did that turn into explosive drama. I got yelled at and then he talked bad about me to other family members and then he gave me the silent treatment. On the day of his daughter’s wedding. Because I asked him to let me handle a behavior problem with my daughter myself without him telling me to be quiet and let her do what she wants.
I don’t want this to be a gripe session about my FIL, whom I do love. But this is the context for why I needed my husband to be on my side and aware of what was happening. Thankfully, now he knows and he is rightfully disturbed and knows something must be done, including never allowing alone time again.
I woke up this morning and thought “could this really have happened? Did I really just see my FIL (my dad, really, as he had been in my life since I was a girl and I have no father figure of my own in my life) inappropriately touching my daughter. How could this happen? But why else would I have an anxiety attack over how he was touching her, unless he was putting off creepy signals?!”
After being abused and gas-lighted by my own mother and neglected and disowned by both father and adoptive father, I got really used to doubting myself and assuming I am at fault for everything. I got really good at being the first to apologize. But this is something I cannot deny. I am so sad. Why would he do such things? How could he be innocent, when his actions were objectively so disturbing. He did it one last time before he left after his long visit this week, and this time he was squeezing and caressing her upper thighs, right next to her buttocks. I got up, gave my husband a very pointed look, and he told my daughter to get up to go do something. I want to believe he is just ignorant, but three times in one visit, with me wanting to vomit each time, and somehow always doing it when my husband was out of line of sight?!
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I had a cousin like this. He always did silly things like this…but never crossed the line into actual sexual things. One thing that would annoy me was his lack of respecting personal space. He had a pool and when we would go swimming sometimes he’d jump up behind me and then put his arms around me and hold on. It would feel creepy and then I would have to tell him and yell at him, “GET OFF OF ME!!!” And he would be a deer in the headlights and have no clue he was being creepy.

He had no clue. I’m not sure why he had no clue 🤷. I wasn’t the only one to feel that way.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say you have been teaching your daughter about modesty and it is if you are talking to a brick wall? Why do you feel this way? Do you expect her to be able to stop or control her Grandfather? She can’t do that. He is the grownup, she is a child. He needs to control himself. You need to tell him, “Please don’t do that.”

I find what I highlighted inappropriate as well. You are an adult woman. Would you permit anyone to do that to you and then shrug it off as he was being affectionate? No. Massaging a child’s upper thigh is creepy, inappropriate.
 
mommamaree said:
My husband is now exasperated with me over this. He disagrees with me. He says it is not his favorite thing that his father does, but he doesn’t think his dad would ever do anything wrong. I am telling him that just what we have already witnessed is WRONG! He is not happy with me about this. I also recalled that last time we were together, my FIL got himself caught absent-mindedly pulling on the back of her pants and panties to look down her pants. Almost like a parent might check a diaper. Only she was already 8 years old by that point! I looked at him after he did it, and he looked like he had surprised himself at such a breech of propriety and boundaries. I asked my husband soon after to talk to his father, which he never did. I am so upset right now.
And with the responses I have received here, my alarms are even louder. I do not know how to deal with this. I have been told my past is clouding my judgement, but I wanted to vomit at his behavior. My husband is upset with me, but my thoughts are all about my daughter, MY BABY GIRL, possibly in the arms of a pedophile.
I do not want to cause a breach in the family, but this behavior seems objectively wrong and I am afraid of what might already have happened to my daughter.
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Tell your husband your daughter must not be taught to consider this to be an acceptable way to express affection. If this relative isn’t grooming her for himself, he’s grooming her for somebody. Predators LOOK for young people with permissive physical boundaries. Predators LOOK for young people who won’t enforce boundaries for fear of giving offense. Your daughter needs to know that the way to discourage creeps is to not let ANYBODY get that free and easy with her.

If your husband does not believe you, invite him to talk to the person in your diocese in charge of preventing the sexual abuse of minors. The way to rob predators of opportunities is for decent people to street far clear of the “borderlines” where the preators quietly prowl.

The FIL may not be a predator. He still shouldn’t do what he is doing. Young women with boundaries are much less likely to be chosen as a victim of a sex offender, not just when they are young, but throughout life. The sooner she learns to send clear signals that she is not open to groping from anybody, the better.
 
You might also ask your husband how he’s going to feel in a year when he catches her boyfriend doing that kind of “innocent” touching with her right under his nose. Is he really so sure he wants to tell his daughter not to consider that kind of touching to be remotely sexual? How does he propose to say “well, it is different when Grandpa does it”? The predator who uses that childhood training to “groom” her could be her own age–your husband does know that, right?
 
mommamaree said:
… I also recalled that last time we were together, my FIL got himself caught absent-mindedly pulling on the back of her pants and panties to look down her pants. Almost like a parent might check a diaper. Only she was already 8 years old by that point! I looked at him after he did it, and he looked like he had surprised himself at such a breech of propriety and boundaries. I asked my husband soon after to talk to his father, which he never did…
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That is creepy. Your best bet is not to make this about your FILs character (although there is zero chance I’d ever leave him alone with a minor) but about the physical boundaries that children need to be taught in order to make them unattractive targets for true predators. Still, I’d make it very clear that he has done enough already to preclude ever being left alone with young children. Grown men who look down inside of little girls’ panties (!?!:eek:!?!) are on the short list of people who NEVER get to be a sitter. Too cautious? Well, that’s just too $#@& bad. One offense of that kind can harm a child’s trust for life. No borderline actors need apply for a position of trust. Prevent violations, and you’ll never have to prosecute one.
 
mommamaree said:
I am as perplexed as you. I have been teaching my daughter (and all of my children) about modesty from day one. It is like I am talking to a brick wall. They are not getting the message. Add to that, adults do not understand boundaries. Yesterday, I thought I was losing my mind because of how my FIL was behaving, and my husband never saw ANY of it. The last time I did stand up to my FIL, it was over this same child, and boy did that turn into explosive drama. I got yelled at and then he talked bad about me to other family members and then he gave me the silent treatment. On the day of his daughter’s wedding. Because I asked him to let me handle a behavior problem with my daughter myself without him telling me to be quiet and let her do what she wants.
I don’t want this to be a gripe session about my FIL, whom I do love. But this is the context for why I needed my husband to be on my side and aware of what was happening. Thankfully, now he knows and he is rightfully disturbed and knows something must be done, including never allowing alone time again.
I woke up this morning and thought “could this really have happened? Did I really just see my FIL (my dad, really, as he had been in my life since I was a girl and I have no father figure of my own in my life) inappropriately touching my daughter. How could this happen? But why else would I have an anxiety attack over how he was touching her, unless he was putting off creepy signals?!”
After being abused and gas-lighted by my own mother and neglected and disowned by both father and adoptive father, I got really used to doubting myself and assuming I am at fault for everything. I got really good at being the first to apologize. But this is something I cannot deny. I am so sad. Why would he do such things? How could he be innocent, when his actions were objectively so disturbing. He did it one last time before he left after his long visit this week, and this time he was squeezing and caressing her upper thighs, right next to her buttocks. I got up, gave my husband a very pointed look, and he told my daughter to get up to go do something. I want to believe he is just ignorant, but three times in one visit, with me wanting to vomit each time, and somehow always doing it when my husband was out of line of sight?!
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You better get a grip. Tell your daughters under no circumstances that your FIL behavior is wrong and teach them what is appropriate. And I mean be outright insistent.
You are describing something very close to a form of sexual assault. Next time you see FIL be with your husband only. Tell him the next time he pulls that you will call him out in public AND call the police. You have a real problem. Put the girls first…and NOW.
 
Cricket2 said:
You better get a grip. Tell your daughters under no circumstances that your FIL behavior is wrong and teach them what is appropriate. And I mean be outright insistent.
You are describing something very close to a form of sexual assault. Next time you see FIL be with your husband only. Tell him the next time he pulls that you will call him out in public AND call the police. You have a real problem. Put the girls first…and NOW.
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I would be clear that I’d rather be the bad guy in my extended family than ever be a person who let someone who violated my daughter go on to violate someone else’s, too. If anyone, FIL or not, did something illegal to a child with my direct knowledge, there is a 100% chance I’d report them. FIL has already gotten his mulligan. Make it clear there will not be a second one. Your husband can choose to tell his dad that, or not.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
I had a cousin like this. He always did silly things like this…but never crossed the line into actual sexual things. One thing that would annoy me was his lack of respecting personal space. He had a pool and when we would go swimming sometimes he’d jump up behind me and then put his arms around me and hold on. It would feel creepy and then I would have to tell him and yell at him, “GET OFF OF ME!!!” And he would be a deer in the headlights and have no clue he was being creepy.

He had no clue. I’m not sure why he had no clue 🤷. I wasn’t the only one to feel that way.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say you have been teaching your daughter about modesty and it is if you are talking to a brick wall? Why do you feel this way? Do you expect her to be able to stop or control her Grandfather? She can’t do that. He is the grownup, she is a child. He needs to control himself. You need to tell him, “Please don’t do that.”

I find what I highlighted inappropriate as well. You are an adult woman. Would you permit anyone to do that to you and then shrug it off as he was being affectionate? No. Massaging a child’s upper thigh is creepy, inappropriate.
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No, I have not expected her to be able to control her grandfather’s behavior. I didn’t realize that would be implied when I mentioned my difficulties with that. The issues I am having with my kids involve barging into bathrooms while another sibling or parent is trying to do their business, playing water splashing games with each other during bathrooms, not getting dressed in their closet or room privately, walking around the house totally nude, etc. I have corrected and instructed every time and it still happens. I am exasperated a bit, but not mad with any of them. I am just going to continue teaching and I am sure at some point, it will get through. I bet the second my oldest starts puberty, there will be a very different tone for them regarding modesty.
Regarding the upper thigh stroking, that is precisely why I got my husband to step in. I told him today that I think his father might be trying to see exactly how far he can go in front of me, in order to normalize the behavior for my daughter, so he can do things to her privately. He is no longer exasperated with me. He is connecting the dots, too. He feels angry and betrayed. We are not sure of how big this is going to blow up, but he knows something must be said and that new ground rules are going to be laid down if the grandfather wants contact. I cannot believe the sheer amount of betrayals we have experienced at the hands of family members. We literally can trust NO ONE to tell us the truth or to respect basic boundaries. Not siblings, not parents, on either side of our families. Not godparents, either. :mad:
 
Glad your husband is now on your side and has become willing to protect his daughter. I am surprised that this behavior of grandpa hasn’t given your daughter the desire to steer clear of him on her own…that concerns me that she is comfortable with it and would make me wonder as a paranoid mom that I am - who has done more with her that she thinks this kind touching is alright? And what has Grandpa already done with her when you’ve been distracted or in another room?

Years ago, I had a roommate who had left her husband after learning her husband and his father had been having an incestuous relationship with her 8 year old stepdaughter. She had that something was up for a couple of years they all just seemed too close, but dismissed it as her own twisted imagination…until when the little girl was 8 she was diagnosed with the same form of std she had just had to get cleared up, she was shocked the “other woman” her husband had cheated on her with that gave her the disease was her step daughter - Grandpa had given it to her. She left the marriage with a 3 yr old daughter.
mommamaree said:
No, I have not expected her to be able to control her grandfather’s behavior. I didn’t realize that would be implied when I mentioned my difficulties with that. The issues I am having with my kids involve barging into bathrooms while another sibling or parent is trying to do their business, playing water splashing games with each other during bathrooms, not getting dressed in their closet or room privately, walking around the house totally nude, etc. I have corrected and instructed every time and it still happens. I am exasperated a bit, but not mad with any of them. I am just going to continue teaching and I am sure at some point, it will get through. I bet the second my oldest starts puberty, there will be a very different tone for them regarding modesty.
Regarding the upper thigh stroking, that is precisely why I got my husband to step in. I told him today that I think his father might be trying to see exactly how far he can go in front of me, in order to normalize the behavior for my daughter, so he can do things to her privately. He is no longer exasperated with me. He is connecting the dots, too. He feels angry and betrayed. We are not sure of how big this is going to blow up, but he knows something must be said and that new ground rules are going to be laid down if the grandfather wants contact. I cannot believe the sheer amount of betrayals we have experienced at the hands of family members. We literally can trust NO ONE to tell us the truth or to respect basic boundaries. Not siblings, not parents, on either side of our families. Not godparents, either. :mad:
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mommamaree said:
No, I have not expected her to be able to control her grandfather’s behavior. I didn’t realize that would be implied when I mentioned my difficulties with that. The issues I am having with my kids involve barging into bathrooms while another sibling or parent is trying to do their business, playing water splashing games with each other during bathrooms, not getting dressed in their closet or room privately, walking around the house totally nude, etc. I have corrected and instructed every time and it still happens. I am exasperated a bit, but not mad with any of them. I am just going to continue teaching and I am sure at some point, it will get through. I bet the second my oldest starts puberty, there will be a very different tone for them regarding modesty.
Regarding the upper thigh stroking, that is precisely why I got my husband to step in. I told him today that I think his father might be trying to see exactly how far he can go in front of me, in order to normalize the behavior for my daughter, so he can do things to her privately. He is no longer exasperated with me. He is connecting the dots, too. He feels angry and betrayed. We are not sure of how big this is going to blow up, but he knows something must be said and that new ground rules are going to be laid down if the grandfather wants contact. I cannot believe the sheer amount of betrayals we have experienced at the hands of family members. We literally can trust NO ONE to tell us the truth or to respect basic boundaries. Not siblings, not parents, on either side of our families. Not godparents, either. :mad:
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You have every right to be angry, but I would stick with being firm. Don’t give anyone a pretext to act offended. Simply say: these are our boundaries. This will result in cutting off contact, that will result in the police being notified, and that goes the same for friend or family as for a stranger. There us no “position of trust” that which makes that OK, not for grandpa or uncle any more than pastor or teacher. Nobody gets a pass, including you. Period. Perhaps it is regrettable that it has to be that way, but we don’t believe “that could never happen to us”. That is how kids get betrayed, by well-meaning exceptions.
 
mommamaree said:
No, I have not expected her to be able to control her grandfather’s behavior. I didn’t realize that would be implied when I mentioned my difficulties with that. The issues I am having with my kids involve barging into bathrooms while another sibling or parent is trying to do their business, playing water splashing games with each other during bathrooms, not getting dressed in their closet or room privately, walking around the house totally nude, etc. I have corrected and instructed every time and it still happens. I am exasperated a bit, but not mad with any of them. I am just going to continue teaching and I am sure at some point, it will get through. I bet the second my oldest starts puberty, there will be a very different tone for them regarding modesty.
Regarding the upper thigh stroking, that is precisely why I got my husband to step in. I told him today that I think his father might be trying to see exactly how far he can go in front of me, in order to normalize the behavior for my daughter, so he can do things to her privately. He is no longer exasperated with me. He is connecting the dots, too. He feels angry and betrayed. We are not sure of how big this is going to blow up, but he knows something must be said and that new ground rules are going to be laid down if the grandfather wants contact. I cannot believe the sheer amount of betrayals we have experienced at the hands of family members. We literally can trust NO ONE to tell us the truth or to respect basic boundaries. Not siblings, not parents, on either side of our families. Not godparents, either. :mad:
You are right to be patient and yet insistent. You kids need to feel free to admit “mistakes” to you. They should never feel afraid to admit that something bad happened to them because they ignored your sensible advice. They should know the rules are there to prevent harm and that your highest priority is their protection, not recriminations for failure to follow rules.
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You have some real work ahead of you. I am going to be blunt here: My siblings and I understood how to knock on a bedroom door or bathroom by the age of 2. There is absolutely no reason this should be an issue after that age. We knew not to touch the closet were the medication were kept by that age as well. There were no locks or hiding places. We simply got told that the consequences would not be all that pleasant.

If everyone is at the age that they can have a simple conversation, sit down and have a good talk about shutting doors, privacy and appropriate touch. In addition set up some consequences for inappropriate behavior: time out, being grounded, losing a privilege and certainly having to say your sorry to the offended person.

Tell the rest of the family your rules, stick to them and if they don’t like it too bad.
 
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