What is patriotism?

[consumedconvert]

What is a good working definition of true, Catholic-compatable Patriotism? What is it, and what isn’t it? I suspect that if we explored this question more in-depth, many who say they aren’t patriotic would rethink their views and how they define themselves.

My thoughts:

Patriotism is loving your country enough to praise it when you believe it’s right and oppose it when you believe it’s wrong. Love of country is NOT the same thing as support for governmental policy. Patriotism is not a political party. Patriotism is not “My country, right or wrong.” NOR is Patriotism jingoism–“My country is better than all countries, qualitatively. My country could beat up your country.” True patriotism engenders respect for the patriotism of other countries–becuase they’re entitled to love their country just as much as we love ours.

Too, too often patriotism has been equated with support for policy, either on the right or on the left. The most recent manifestation has been, “If you don’t believe that the Iraq war was the right decision, you’re unpatriotic.” Let’s not let the thread devolve into a tired discussion of Iraq–but you understand my point.

Your thoughts?

 

[Starwynd]

I tend to agree. When I hear things like “you’re either for us or your against us” I get very disheartened. It’s such an incredibly limited way in thinking and very xenophobic, and if Jesus thought that way then nobody’d get saved and Christianity would have far less people than it does now.

 

[PBP]

What is a good working definition of true, Catholic-compatable Patriotism? What is it, and what isn’t it? I suspect that if we explored this question more in-depth, many who say they aren’t patriotic would rethink their views and how they define themselves.

My thoughts:

Patriotism is loving your country enough to praise it when you believe it’s right and oppose it when you believe it’s wrong. Love of country is NOT the same thing as support for governmental policy. Patriotism is not a political party. Patriotism is not “My country, right or wrong.” NOR is Patriotism jingoism–“My country is better than all countries, qualitatively. My country could beat up your country.” True patriotism engenders respect for the patriotism of other countries–becuase they’re entitled to love their country just as much as we love ours.

Too, too often patriotism has been equated with support for policy, either on the right or on the left. The most recent manifestation has been, “If you don’t believe that the Iraq war was the right decision, you’re unpatriotic.” Let’s not let the thread devolve into a tired discussion of Iraq–but you understand my point.

Your thoughts?

I completely agree with you. It seems to me the people most duped by the “your not a patriot” response to opposing the Iraq war are the WWII vets. To oppose war publicly is almost certain to bring condemnation on yourself. You will be accused of hating America or not being a true American. Unfortunately, both major parties due a fantastic job of exploiting the emotions of people to gain votes.

 

[JudieK]

How strangely wonderful that you have articulated a question I have often thought about but never expressed out loud (for fear of being labled “unpatriotic!”)

I love America, and cry when I hear the national anthem, watch the Olympics, etc. But I am deeply ashamed when I hear people bragging “we’re the best!” or that we should “shoot those illegal immigrants as they’re running across the border!” ( Yes- I have heard it said!) and such. I am saddened and embarrassed that America exports such wonderful cultural gems as porn and violence and Jerry Springer. I hate the fact that we think we have the right and the obligation to tell the rest of the world that they should be just like us. When you voice these opinions, people label you an egg-head liberal or worse.

I suppose I consider myself a Catholic first of all, a citizen of God’s Kingdom. Of that I am unabashedly unashamed (yet not obnoxiously so… I respect other’s rights to believe what they wish!) But then I acknowledge with humility that I was priviledged to be born in America- a land of great abundance and opportunity… through none of my own doing. How can I brag? I was lucky. But it hurts to see America going into the gutter.

Anyway… thanks for the great question!

 

[markomalley]

What is a good working definition of true, Catholic-compatable Patriotism? What is it, and what isn’t it? I suspect that if we explored this question more in-depth, many who say they aren’t patriotic would rethink their views and how they define themselves.

My thoughts:

Patriotism is loving your country enough to praise it when you believe it’s right and oppose it when you believe it’s wrong. Love of country is NOT the same thing as support for governmental policy. Patriotism is not a political party. Patriotism is not “My country, right or wrong.” NOR is Patriotism jingoism–“My country is better than all countries, qualitatively. My country could beat up your country.” True patriotism engenders respect for the patriotism of other countries–becuase they’re entitled to love their country just as much as we love ours.

Too, too often patriotism has been equated with support for policy, either on the right or on the left. The most recent manifestation has been, “If you don’t believe that the Iraq war was the right decision, you’re unpatriotic.” Let’s not let the thread devolve into a tired discussion of Iraq–but you understand my point.

Your thoughts?

The Merriam Webster dictionary definition for “patriot” is: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

The Merriam Webster dictionary definition for “patriotism” is: love for or devotion to one’s country

Other definitions include:

• strong feelings of love and devotion to one’s country and, if necessary, one will fight to defend it.
• Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a ‘fatherland’ (Latin patria < Greek patrida, πατρίδα), by individuals and groups. The ‘fatherland’ (or ‘motherland’) can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state.
  Prior to the current Presidential administration, an individual who was patriotic was considered a flag-waver and strongly implied a strong degree of nationalism.

Since the beginning of the current administration, Patriotism has seemed to be redefined by those who would be tarred by its near antonym: traitor, disloyal, etc Those individuals who would redefine it would define any sort of dissent as “patriotic,” to include, in a couple of cases that I’ve seen, espionage and incitement of desertion.

Now I personally don’t care for redefining words for political reasons.

A person can be a good person without being a nationalist. A person can have a wonderful character without being a flag-waver. Being non-patriotic does not imply being disloyal…it just implies that you value other things than saying “my country right or wrong.”

What’s wrong with saying: “No, I don’t consider myself a patriot: I don’t support the direction this country is going in the area of (fill in the blank). I think we need to change. Yes, I do love my country. Yes, I am happy to be a citizen. No, I am not terribly proud of being an (fill in the blank), as long as this country supports (fill in the blank).”

Rather than distorting the language (utilizing the material dialectic), I would rather use the proper vocabulary.

The same thing happened years ago with the term liberal versus socialist. Socialist became a bad word, so the word “liberal” was hijacked. Homosexuals hijacked the word “gay” so that it never means “happy” anymore. The word “Choice” got hijacked by the pro-abortionists. And, unfortunately, the word stem “patriot” is in the process of being hijacked by some who are anything but…

BTW, I am a veteran (retiree) with over 20 years of military service. I have been in many of this nation’s conflicts…most of which you’ve heard about and a few you haven’t.

And, you know, I never use the term “patriot,” “patriotic,” or “patriotism” when referring to myself. I could. I have every right to do so (having actually earned it). But it seems, in my opinion, to be somehow empty for one to use that term about oneself.

 

[consumedconvert]

The Merriam Webster dictionary definition for “patriot” is: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

The Merriam Webster dictionary definition for “patriotism” is: love for or devotion to one’s country

Other definitions include:

• strong feelings of love and devotion to one’s country and, if necessary, one will fight to defend it.
• Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a ‘fatherland’ (Latin patria < Greek patrida, πατρίδα), by individuals and groups. The ‘fatherland’ (or ‘motherland’) can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state.
  Prior to the current Presidential administration, an individual who was patriotic was considered a flag-waver and strongly implied a strong degree of nationalism.

Since the beginning of the current administration, Patriotism has seemed to be redefined by those who would be tarred by its near antonym: traitor, disloyal, etc Those individuals who would redefine it would define any sort of dissent as “patriotic,” to include, in a couple of cases that I’ve seen, espionage and incitement of desertion.

Now I personally don’t care for redefining words for political reasons.

A person can be a good person without being a nationalist. A person can have a wonderful character without being a flag-waver. Being non-patriotic does not imply being disloyal…it just implies that you value other things than saying “my country right or wrong.”

What’s wrong with saying: “No, I don’t consider myself a patriot: I don’t support the direction this country is going in the area of (fill in the blank). I think we need to change. Yes, I do love my country. Yes, I am happy to be a citizen. No, I am not terribly proud of being an (fill in the blank), as long as this country supports (fill in the blank).”

Rather than distorting the language (utilizing the material dialectic), I would rather use the proper vocabulary.

The same thing happened years ago with the term liberal versus socialist. Socialist became a bad word, so the word “liberal” was hijacked. Homosexuals hijacked the word “gay” so that it never means “happy” anymore. The word “Choice” got hijacked by the pro-abortionists. And, unfortunately, the word stem “patriot” is in the process of being hijacked by some who are anything but…

BTW, I am a veteran (retiree) with over 20 years of military service. I have been in many of this nation’s conflicts…most of which you’ve heard about and a few you haven’t.

And, you know, I never use the term “patriot,” “patriotic,” or “patriotism” when referring to myself. I could. I have every right to do so (having actually earned it). But it seems, in my opinion, to be somehow empty for one to use that term about oneself.

Mark,

Hello, and thank you for your service. In college and grad school, where I majored in English and English Ed., they taught us that modern dictionaries seek only to describe language as it is most often used, never to define it. Websters Third International was the first to institute this trend, almost all modern dictionaries have followed. So no, I don’t accept a few blurbs from the etymologists at Websters as a solid, working definition of Catholic-compatible patriotism; the folks at Websters wouldn’t expect us to.

If you are suggesting that one must support one’s governmental policy completely to be a patriot, than no Catholic in communion with the Holy See could be a patriot, since no Catholic may support our nation’s position on abortion or government funded abortion, among many other issues.

Why is it that, by many people’s definition, you can blast our country’s fiscal policy (tax and spend), social policies (like abortion on demand, affirmitive action), and almost anything else, and can still be a patriot; but the minute you question our foreign policy, you are no longer a patriot?

True patriot’s would never be involved in intentionally disgracing their flag or their country, although they may challenge and even rail against national or state policies (like abortion on demand, or, if they believe it is unjust, a war). They support their national identity and the overarching political ideals, but not necessarily the current political regime or any political party; and they may even rail against what they see as unnecessary changes and abuses of the system (like a legislative judicial branch).

They can pray for their troops success and safety, but disagree over whether we should have gone in in the first place. Former Senator Pat Buchanan comes to mind. I think most would think twice, maybe thrice, before contending that he is not a patriot.

Nationalism implies more than patriotism–“My country, right or wrong”–and that’s dangerously more.

 

[consumedconvert]

And, by the way, I don’t shy away from the terms “patriotism” or “patriot” because we are not using the terms in self-acclamation, but rather searching for a definition.

 

[Wirraway]

I’m a patriot. I love this country and the ideals that we try to uphold. I wore her uniform with pride.

I revel in the bitterly partisan divisive, near slanderous political fighting because it proves the democratic system works. we don’t change leaders by coups or revolutions.

this country stands by the idea of freedom of worship, which, to the consternation of many posters, also includes freedom of conscience for protestants, atheists, wickens, pantheists, or whatever. Anything less than this freedom is a disaster waiting to happen. a five minute review of history will prove this beyond question.

don’t even care much about the whiny chic I-hate-this-country grousing because those voices – freedom of speech – are proof that the democratic system works. there are lots of places in the world where saying the equivalent would get you sent to the gulag or a pock-marked wall.

regarding people who complain because their patriotism is challenged because of differing views on the war… deal with it. the first amendment guarantees your right to say or believe anything you want to without government infererence*, including levelling the most vitriolic criticism of the government itself. however, the first amendment doesn’t guaranteee you a right to be heard, or that you’ll be taken seriously, or that someone else won’t call you names. if your patriotism is eroded because I question it, it wasn’t very strong to begin with.

the country isn’t perfect, and it will never satisfy everyone here unless a theocracy is somehow imposed (which won’t happen on my watch).

---

• subject to the first amendment itself, but let’s not quibble.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Patriotism is an altruistic feeling of love for one’s country and fellow citizens, coupled with a willingness to make sacrifices (including the ultimate sacrifice) in their behalf.

 

[zagjames]

I tend to agree. When I hear things like “you’re either for us or your against us” I get very disheartened. It’s such an incredibly limited way in thinking and very xenophobic, and if Jesus thought that way then nobody’d get saved and Christianity would have far less people than it does now.

“He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.” Matt 12:30

Seems to be the same either or arguement.

Dont get me wrong I hate it when people say that about our country. Its blind nationalism atbest.

 

[consumedconvert]

“He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.” Matt 12:30

Seems to be the same either or arguement.

Dont get me wrong I hate it when people say that about our country. Its blind nationalism atbest.

I believe the crucial distinction here is that Christ was speaking about Christianity, not national identity.

It’s interesting to note that among Christ’s chosen twelve disciples were Simon the Zealot, a member of a political sect whose long-term goal was the overthrow of the Romans and the return of Israel’s national sovereignty, and Matthew, who collected taxes for the Romans.

Interestingly, we have no record of Christ extolling or scolding Simon for being a patriot, nor extolling or scolding Matthew for being a collaborator. It seems the Body of Christ was not to be divided, even by politics–perhaps the most divisive force of all time.