- Status
S
SirOscar
Guest
Yes, I understand it needs to be mutual.
Lets say they agree to celibacy for a time, but one starts to get angry and begins to feel denied? What if that partner falls into a pattern of sin?
What if there are situations where the woman is not satisfied sexually with her partner, as a result of an ED issue, and the husband does not recognize that it is a contributing factor the to his spouse not wanting sex anymore?
What if the woman was sexually abused or raped in her childhood and does not find sex with her husband appealing because of the emotional & psychological scars?
What if the husband does not want anymore children, or vice versa, and live by the “you don’t want a baby, don’t have sex” theory, and do not trust NFP
What if one spouce does not love the other in a sexual way?
How can sex be unitive with these issues? Is it allowable to assume that one spouce can disregard the issues of one and demand that sex is the marital right?
I know these are huge “what ifs” but they are nonetheless real issues that many couples face in there sexual union…
Lets say they agree to celibacy for a time, but one starts to get angry and begins to feel denied? What if that partner falls into a pattern of sin?
What if there are situations where the woman is not satisfied sexually with her partner, as a result of an ED issue, and the husband does not recognize that it is a contributing factor the to his spouse not wanting sex anymore?
What if the woman was sexually abused or raped in her childhood and does not find sex with her husband appealing because of the emotional & psychological scars?
What if the husband does not want anymore children, or vice versa, and live by the “you don’t want a baby, don’t have sex” theory, and do not trust NFP
What if one spouce does not love the other in a sexual way?
How can sex be unitive with these issues? Is it allowable to assume that one spouce can disregard the issues of one and demand that sex is the marital right?
I know these are huge “what ifs” but they are nonetheless real issues that many couples face in there sexual union…
1
1ke
Guest
Then they need to reevaluate their agreement, the reasons for it, and possibly discontinue it-- or fortify their resolve and discontinue th sinful acts.
Inability to perform the sex act is not denial of the rights of the spouse. If one spouse is incapable, then that is that. The other spouse is called to celibacy in that case.
She needs psychological counseling. Perhaps she should not have married. BUT, she did marry and this means she included the right to intercourse at the time she consented.
Then the couple needs counseling. NFP is appropriate to space/avoid children. It does not negate the spouse’s right to intercourse. Complete continence can be by mutual consent only.
Then they probably should not have married. But, they did, and in so doing they consented to the exchange of marital rights. It’s not optional.
It is objectively unitive.
A qualified yes here. The marital right cannot be denied. In the case of an individual act a person can refuse if they are ill, etc, on that day-- but as a whole they cannot deny permanently, indefinitely.
Which is why it’s important that people understand what they are consenting to before they marry.
L
LJN21
Guest
Going to try and answer them one at a time.
It would seem in that situation that its no longer truly mutual. Sometimes spouses agree to something and then realize, for what ever reason, they can not hold to there side without some emotional damage that is not necessarily within their control. They would need to talk about the situation and how they feel and try to come to an agreement on how to proceed.
Thats one of the reasons spouses can not deny each other the marital right with out serious reason. To avoid sin is a just reason to ask for the marital right as well and can not be taken lightly.
That sounds like a lack of communication. In this case I would suggest a good Catholic Marriage councilor that isn’t gong to recommend any activities that are immoral.
Again I would suggest a good Catholic councilor, probably both a marriage councilor and a personal councilor. Those things can be healed.
Well the problem with that theory is its not even supported by the Church. The Church does not teach that sex is just for making baby’s, it also teaches that sex is for the unification of spouses, its the renewal of there wedding vows. If a couple is done having babys, for just reasons, there is no Church teaching that the couple must live a celibate life, its quite the opposite actually.
Not trusting NFP is an totally different issue. I would suggest research. Look at the different methods and the failure rates. Normal use NFP is about 80% effective, thats only because it includes people that kinda sorta use it to space kid and get to a point where they are only half heartily avoiding and start braking all kinds of rules
Perfect use its effectiveness of like the Sympto-Thermal method is 99.7% or something like that. There are 2 other methods I can think of off the top of my head, Billings and Creighton, each one works in a different way. With in a couple months of charting it is possible to find days each month that baring a literal miracle it would be impossible to conceive.Well I would assume at one point they that spouse did love that way or they wouldn’t have gotten married
This also sounds to me like a marriage councilor issue. All marriages have ups and downs, sometimes the downs need a bit of out side help. So far, my marriage, has had one major bad point, counseling did wonders for us. What we learn has helped us reconcile many issues before they blew up since.Sex is unitive despite those issues. A spouse should not disregard any issue the other is experiencing, but on the same token, a spouse should not disregard the others need for the marital right. Communication is key, spouse should talk about their feelings and emotions on how there sex life, or lack there of makes them feel.
Not overly huge what ifs
I know people who have gone through some of these issues form one extent or the other.
S
SirOscar
Guest
Okay, so the according to 1ke, there really is no reason to deny sex, period. What you are saying is that one spouse can demand sex at any given time regardless of the “reasons” of the other spouse. (except for acceptable ones: I am sick, avoidance for children, etc)
Is that not a license for “psychological rape”
How far can one carry that? Does not sex need to me mutually consenting to be considered “unitive” If one doesn’t want it for serious reasons, one cannot give of themselves fully and completely to the other, and I think it is important for the other partner to take those into consideration.
Where is the compassion or understanding for the partner who is suffering?
Will not the act of sex eventually become psychologically harmful to the spouse afflicted with the issues, and cause more harm (depression, low self esteem, etc), which in turn will cause more destruction to the unity of the family.
Society constantly teaches “if the women says no, the woman means no” I think that should fall into the marriage union, as well.
If my daughters marry men who think it is their God given right to have sex when ever they want and totally disregard her issues, I am sorry, I will have a problem with that. I certainly would not tell her, well you know honey, you just need to put up with it, cause it is his marital right.
That to me just sounds absurd.
Is that not a license for “psychological rape”
How far can one carry that? Does not sex need to me mutually consenting to be considered “unitive” If one doesn’t want it for serious reasons, one cannot give of themselves fully and completely to the other, and I think it is important for the other partner to take those into consideration.
Where is the compassion or understanding for the partner who is suffering?
Will not the act of sex eventually become psychologically harmful to the spouse afflicted with the issues, and cause more harm (depression, low self esteem, etc), which in turn will cause more destruction to the unity of the family.
Society constantly teaches “if the women says no, the woman means no” I think that should fall into the marriage union, as well.
If my daughters marry men who think it is their God given right to have sex when ever they want and totally disregard her issues, I am sorry, I will have a problem with that. I certainly would not tell her, well you know honey, you just need to put up with it, cause it is his marital right.
That to me just sounds absurd.
1
1ke
Guest
I did not say that. There may be a valid reason to deny an *individual *request, but one cannot deny continually or permanently without mutual consent.
I did not say that either.
No. It is called “being married”.
Any time the spouses agree to engage in intercourse it is mutually consenting. The fact that one of the two may have less desire and consent to please the other does not negate that.
I did not state otherwise.
Compassion and understanding should be a part of every marriage.
wah, wah, wah.
The spouse made a committment and gave their irrevocable consent. If they have issues, it is their duty to work through them and overcome them. If a person is incapable of committing sexually then they are not candidates for marriage.
Who said anything about the spouse being a woman? The rights to conjugal union apply to both spouses.
Your daughters have a God-given right to sexual relations with their husbands too. As I stated, the marital rights are not limited to one spouse.
No one here has stated anything about total disregard for issues (only you have stated that).
It may sound absurd to you, but it is the teaching of the Church nonetheless.
S
SirOscar
Guest
LJN21, I can accept the need for council, in any marriage that is having sexual difficulty, but both partners need to be open to that. If one is not open to the council, how effective can that be.
The Catholic Church is not the only denomination that carries the “right to marital act” doctrine, and I am most certain, most couple go into a marriage expecting they will be satisfied sexually.
To put absolutes on the marital act and say it cannot be denied just does not make sense to me. It is contradictory to life. Life is not absolute.
What happens if, after 2 years of marriage, the wife is raped, and knows that she cannot have sex with her husband for some time, as it will cause more psychological damage. During the time the wife is in therapy, let’s say not going on 2 years) the husband grows restless and masturbates repeatedly. Is she responsible then, for his sin? Sexual intercourse will destroy any progress she has made psychologically, and her husband, with his trump card of his marital right, says it’s been long enough, and demands it of her, uses this to guilt her into submission.
How is that effective therapy for the woman? What about the spiritual, psychological & physical makeup of the woman? Where is the love & sacrifice for his wife, to give her time to heal.
L
LJN21
Guest
I think the key is, when someone gets married they make a commitment of themselves to their spouse, this goes equally for both husbands and wives. In a lot of ways spouse bodies aren’t there own, they are each others.
They both have a responsibility to each give each other love, support and comfort - emotionally and physically. If one spouse for whatever reason has trouble with sex the other spouse needs to be supportive and sensitive, BUT at the same time the other spouse needs to be supportive and sensitive of the others desire for physical intimacy and comfort. Its a two way street.
They both have a responsibility to each give each other love, support and comfort - emotionally and physically. If one spouse for whatever reason has trouble with sex the other spouse needs to be supportive and sensitive, BUT at the same time the other spouse needs to be supportive and sensitive of the others desire for physical intimacy and comfort. Its a two way street.
S
SirOscar
Guest
Sorry 1ke, look at your answer to your question. What is your qualified yes mean then? Am I reading it wrong?
1
1ke
Guest
Exactly what I said, a qualified yes as opposed to an abosolute yes.
As I explained, there may be valid reasons to refuse a particular request for relations but not a permanent or ongoing refusal.
L
LJN21
Guest
Not necessarily, if one spouse will not go to counseling I’d highly recommend the other go anyway.
Yup, they do. Then when they get married and one spouses sex drive is totally different than the others it takes some adjusting. One either needs to catch up or slow down
I have personal been on both sides at one time or another, both cause major marital issue if they don’t go addressed.It can be denied under certain conditions. Cheating spouse, alcohol abuse, illness ect. The reason it can’t be completely denied when your married is because you made a promise before got that you were giving yourselves to each other. You can’t decide some years later your taking it back.
See, I can’t get my head around that one. Personally, I would think the love and closeness of the martial embrace complete with the physical pleasure involved would help heal those wounds. I just can’t figure out in my head how a one time act of sexual violence after marraige would damage marital love.
1
1ke
Guest
He has free will. She is not responsible for his sin, he is responsible for his own sin.
Self-mastery and chastity are requirements of all, regardless of their marital state.
S
SirOscar
Guest
Have you ever been sexually assaulted? Have you ever been abused as a child? Do you know of anyone who has? Have they shared with you their scars?. One cannot fathom the emotional scars obtained by such a violent act, unless they have lived through it
But I can accept why you cannot grasp it.
1
1ke
Guest
No. Self-mastery and chastity are requirements whether married or single.
She is responsibel for her own possible sin (possible, as in depending on the circumstance) in refusing her husband, but not his sin of unchastity.
L
LJN21
Guest
No to all, but thats why I qualified my statement with “one off sexual assault after marriage”.
I don’t pretend to know what people that have been victims of those type of assaults go through. However, you also can not discount the emotional scars of a husband that wants nothing but to love and support his wife thats left out of the loop and feel unwanted. Husbands need emotional and physical support of their wives as much as wives need the support of there husbands.
S
SirOscar
Guest
I understand your comment, and took no assumptions to it, but asked only to perhaps, but yourself in the shoes of the victim.
Yes, they both need to be supportive and understanding. I think the victim should be given the time to heal even if it takes years, to get back his/her sexual confidence. I just reason it to be detrimental to the victim, who is already in a state of psychological weakness, to be demanded they fulfill their marital obligation.
That is all I am trying to convey.
L
LJN21
Guest
Any husband truly trying to follow the Church Teachings on Marriage is not going to demand his right when his wifes an emotional wreck. In almost nine years of marriage my husband has never “demanded” his right. Now, there have been plenty of times one of us wasn’t necessarily as interested as the other and went along anyway.
I think the heart of the marital right thing goes back to “Wives submit to you husbands and husbands love your wife as Christ loves His Church.” Christ was tortured and died for His Church. I’ve always felt that if a husband loves his wife that much or is at least trying to, he would do nothing with her “submission” (I hate that word) that would in anyway hurt her. So the teaching of marital rights coupled with love your wives as Christ loves the Church, make since to me.
L
LittleDeb
Guest
YUP. And sadly the most common cure-alls offered to rape survivors back then was either “heal the rape through sexual contact” (even to the unmarried) or close off all sexual contact (except that it was safe if the person was of the same sex or yourself.) Both solutions are complete and utter baloney. I certainly hope counselors aren’t still using that!
So back on topic: Periodic abstinence in marriage would be a THE way to go in this circumstance. You heal slowly from sexual assault and abuse. One day you are all right and the next you are not. Without periodic abstinence a couple is given the options of all or none. Neither works and neither heals.
T
thistle
Guest
Off topic I know but I just wanted to mention that the Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. We are the one true Church. Everyone else is a denomination.
- Status