What is prayer...really

[ManRay]

If god knows all things - future past perfect - What exactly is the point of prayer beyond some personal meditation, or practice such as yoga, tai chi - or any other form of meditation or practice? To pray for something to happen is basically stating that you so far do not agree with the course of events as god knows will already happen. It would seem that you are trying to reroute gods will. (but god is perfect) You are asking a god to act at a time when god already knows when the right time to act is. How would prayer change any of this or gods plan/foreknowledge? When you pray it seems that you are trying to make an argument that you know what’s correct. An argument that supports what you want. Didn’t Jesus say get behind me Satan when an apostle thought he knew better than gods plan? How is prayer different, and why does it matter what you want if god already knows the outcome? Doesn’t Matthew recommend that we pray in secret, and describe those who pray in public so that they may be seen as hypocrites?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If god knows all things - future past perfect - What exactly is the point of prayer beyond some personal meditation, or practice such as yoga, tai chi - or any other form of meditation or practice? To pray for something to happen is basically stating that you so far do not agree with the course of events as god knows will already happen. It would seem that you are trying to reroute gods will. (but god is perfect) You are asking a god to act at a time when god already knows when the right time to act is. How would prayer change any of this or gods plan/foreknowledge? When you pray it seems that you are trying to make an argument that you know what’s correct. An argument that supports what you want. Didn’t Jesus say get behind me Satan when an apostle thought he knew better than gods plan? How is prayer different, and why does it matter what you want if god already knows the outcome? Doesn’t Matthew recommend that we pray in secret, and describe those who pray in public so that they may be seen as hypocrites?

Prayer is a conversation with God. It is not limited to ‘asking Him for something’ nor it is rooted in ‘time’ (a human construct) as if God is limited to existence in time. (He is not. He created it and therefore exists OUTSIDE IT.)

We pray in order to get to know God. Furthermore, when we pray, we enlarge our own understanding OF God, so far as we are able, because we communicate with Him.

Let’s face it, none of us can fully understand God. But unless you actually try to have a relationship with Him (through prayer), how can you KNOW him? If you don’t communicate with your parents, or your spouse, or children, or coworkers, etc., how can you know anything about them?

So we pray in order to get to know God.

 

[ManRay]

But unless you actually try to have a relationship with Him (through prayer), how can you KNOW him? If you don’t communicate with your parents, or your spouse, or children, or coworkers, etc., how can you know anything about them?

So we pray in order to get to know God.

I was a christian once, hell I may still be - even though I most certainly don’t pray anymore. I remember praying frantically - all the time - about everything. I used to pray over, and over again for god to reveal itself, to give me this knowledge of itself, and more importantly to help me understand things so that I may help others. I don’t feel that I understand this God thing anymore than I did 30 years ago. I think the whole thing has become moot. I don’t believe that humans can possibly understand a thing that exists outside of any reality that we use to understand things. There is no frame of reference. It’s very strange -almost ridiculous, and yet I keep trying (just in case I missed something )

 

[Razanir]

Prayer is talking to God. Anything from asking for something to saying thanks for something. It’s a bit too personal of a story to put on a forum, but I’ll just leave it at: I could never leave religion. Prayer has worked for me. God let happen what I asked for.

 

[ManRay]

Prayer is talking to God. Anything from asking for something to saying thanks for something. It’s a bit too personal of a story to put on a forum, but I’ll just leave it at: I could never leave religion. Prayer has worked for me. God let happen what I asked for.

If god has perfect knowledge of past and future, then it was going to happen anyway. Your prayer had nothing to do with it, unless you believe that you could sway a perfect, and all powerful being one way or the other.

 

[ricmat]

If god has perfect knowledge of past and future, then it was going to happen anyway. Your prayer had nothing to do with it, unless you believe that you could sway a perfect, and all powerful being one way or the other.

God can answer prayers in 4 ways:

Yes
No
Yes, but not yet.
Yes, but you’ll get something even better than you are asking for.

You probably encountered a lot of “no’s”, which often happens when we pray for things that are not the best possible good for us, or someone else.

And anyway, prayer is basically an attempt on our part to align our wills with God’s will. When we pray “in the love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, and we see as God sees, and want what God wants, then we are aligned, and all our prayers are answered “yes.”

Or so it seems to me

 

[ricmat]

Doesn’t Matthew recommend that we pray in secret, and describe those who pray in public so that they may be seen as hypocrites?

Those who pray in public so that they can be seen praying in public not praying, they are putting on a show.

Praying as a group is not wrong, especially in a liturgical setting. Unless you’re doing it for show.

The book of Revelation describes a heavenly liturgy, and the saints and angels are not praying privately. The children of God sink or swim together. “Love one another” cannot be done in private.

 

[hicetnunc]

If god has perfect knowledge of past and future, then it was going to happen anyway. Your prayer had nothing to do with it, unless you believe that you could sway a perfect, and all powerful being one way or the other.

You seem to be confusing foreknowledge with determinism. Knowing what someone is going to ask for doesn’t eliminate the content or object of the asking, since the foreknowledge is precisely knowledge of the content and object of the asking. If you took the view that since God knows what you’re going to ask for, and so then don’t bother asking for it, God’s foreknowledge is simply then that you haven’t asked for something. As St Thomas explains, knowing that someone has free will and knowing what they will do with their free will doesn’t eliminate free will but rather makes it an intelligible object. If someone throws a brick at a window and you see that the brick is going to break the window before it hits it doesn’t in anyway negate the action of the throwing nor the intent of the thrower.

Pax

 

[EasterJoy]

From what the OP is saying, it follows that if a child believes his or her parents will provide for all of his or her needs just the same whether he or she talks to those parents or not or even acknowledges their existence, then from the child’s perspective it is pointless to have a relationship with them. Well, Child, maybe it would not change what school you go to or what is on the table for dinner each night, but choosing to have a relationship with someone who loves you and provides for you has a profound effect on the kind of person you are and will be, quite apart from whether you ever change the degree or nature of that person’s generosity towards you in terms of the concrete benefits you take away from them. Of course, if a child only has a relationship with parents within a “what’s in it for me?” attitude, it hardly matters whether or not the child deigns to exchange words with the parent. That attitude alone precludes anything but a very stunted relationship, no matter how open the parents might be towards something far better for all concerned.

Prayer is all about relationship. Our relationship with God through prayer, knowledge, and service is how we realize the fullness of our being, and by the economy of grace it is how we help others to do the same. It is obvious from human history that we have an instinctual urge towards this kind of a relationship. Even when the character of this relationship has differed greatly over the ages and across the globe, our relatives and ancestors have show evidence of having this urge for 50,000 years and more. I would be very surprised to find it is not built into our DNA. The person who disdains such a relationship has to be aware that he or she must necessarily be, to some extent, abdicating of his or her own humanity in a profound way.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

If god knows all things - future past perfect - What exactly is the point of prayer beyond some personal meditation, or practice such as yoga, tai chi - or any other form of meditation or practice? To pray for something to happen is basically stating that you so far do not agree with the course of events as god knows will already happen. It would seem that you are trying to reroute gods will. (but god is perfect) You are asking a god to act at a time when god already knows when the right time to act is. How would prayer change any of this or gods plan/foreknowledge? When you pray it seems that you are trying to make an argument that you know what’s correct. An argument that supports what you want. Didn’t Jesus say get behind me Satan when an apostle thought he knew better than gods plan? How is prayer different, and why does it matter what you want if god already knows the outcome? Doesn’t Matthew recommend that we pray in secret, and describe those who pray in public so that they may be seen as hypocrites?

Prayer is a petition. In this case, specifically a petition to God; an appeal. The main reason for prayer is to appeal to God, so that one receives a pardon for his/her sin. Also in prayer, a person is supposed to ask for preservation, that God provide the necessities of life, and that He protect you and guide you in your struggle through life. There is no such thing as destiny or a set future. You can choose whatever path you decide to take. God knows all outcomes and all possible futures, and He also knows what is in a man’s heart. Therefore, He can know what path you will ultimately choose, but He does leave it up to you to decide. This is why the date and time of the end is not known except only to God, because it is not set at some point in the future…we have the power to change. We have the power to determine our future.

As for praying/fasting in public, Jesus was referring to the people who pray/fast in public for attention…those who keep up appearances, and pray only to look good. He didn’t forbid public prayer or public fasting (one does not fast behind a closed door and then stop when he/she goes into public places). He forbade people to be hypocrites. After all, in that same passage he talks about how one is to appear in public.

 

[Bill_7154]

If god knows all things - future past perfect - What exactly is the point of prayer beyond some personal meditation, or practice such as yoga, tai chi - or any other form of meditation or practice? To pray for something to happen is basically stating that you so far do not agree with the course of events as god knows will already happen. It would seem that you are trying to reroute gods will. (but god is perfect) You are asking a god to act at a time when god already knows when the right time to act is. How would prayer change any of this or gods plan/foreknowledge? When you pray it seems that you are trying to make an argument that you know what’s correct. An argument that supports what you want. Didn’t Jesus say get behind me Satan when an apostle thought he knew better than gods plan? How is prayer different, and why does it matter what you want if god already knows the outcome? Doesn’t Matthew recommend that we pray in secret, and describe those who pray in public so that they may be seen as hypocrites?

Wouldn’t it depend on how you pray? If I pray for the knowledge and power to understand God’s will for me, and the strength and courage to see it through… how would this be in any way contradictory as you suggest in your post?

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

There’s a great quote: " Do not pray for lighter burdens, pray for a stronger back!"

 

[J_Peterson]

And anyway, prayer is basically an attempt on our part to align our wills with God’s will. When we pray “in the love of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, and we see as God sees, and want what God wants, then we are aligned, and all our prayers are answered “yes.”

Or so it seems to me

I agree. One of the worst kept secrets in human history is that prayer works.

 

[BrianGular]

I was a christian once, hell I may still be - even though I most certainly don’t pray anymore. I remember praying frantically - all the time - about everything. I used to pray over, and over again for god to reveal itself, to give me this knowledge of itself, and more importantly to help me understand things so that I may help others. I don’t feel that I understand this God thing anymore than I did 30 years ago. I think the whole thing has become moot. I don’t believe that humans can possibly understand a thing that exists outside of any reality that we use to understand things. There is no frame of reference. It’s very strange -almost ridiculous, and yet I keep trying (just in case I missed something )

Hello, ManRay. You are absolutely correct that we cannot, on our own, understand a thing that exists outside of the reality that is the universe we live in. From our perspective, the universe is a closed system. We are trapped inside the system, and an impenetrable wall stands between us and eternity. Lucky for us, the universe is not a closed system to God. The Bible shows us many ways in which God has inserted himself into the universe in order to reveal himself to us. The Bible is nothing if it is not the history of God’s intervention in the world. We have, in its pages, eyewitness accounts of God’s activity among us.

It is through his interventions into the world that God has revealed what we need to know about him. The ultimate revelation is Jesus Christ. I think the book of Acts, chapter 10, verses 34-43 sum it up nicely:

So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

This last sentence is the key. It is through Jesus Christ that we receive forgiveness for our sins. This is the greatest revelation of all.