What is prayer?

[Bubba_Switzler]

There are many ways to describe and understand prayer but my question here is between the two main models of prayer:

1. Prayer as act of our will. We pray to God to influence him to affect a change. For example, we pray for rain or for a cure to a disease or for for the salvation of a departed loved one.
2. Prayer as a submission to the will of God. We pray to understand God’s will and accept things as they are or to choose (non-prayer) actions in accordance with God’s will. For example, we pray to understand why a spouse has died and whether we should remarry or to come to terms with a traged such as the earthquake in Haiti or even to deal with a beneficial windfall such as winning the lottery.

There are some who argue that the first form of prayer is idoltry but even praying to understand God’s will seems at least in part to be a request for God to act (i.e. to impart knowledge to us miraculously).

 

[jpjd]

Prayer is communication with God. It’s how we spend time with Him, how we express our needs and wants, our feelings, our hopes and fears. (However, prayer is not just one-way. God also communicates with us in the silence of our prayer.)

There is an acronym “ACTS” for what prayer generally consists of:
Adoration - we give God glory and praise
Contrition - we express sorrow for our sins
Thanksgiving - we give thanks to God for our blessings
Supplication - we petition the Lord for our needs and wants

I don’t see how prayer asking God to affect a change is idolatry. At Mass, we have the General Petitions where we pray for increase in vocations to the priesthood, or for help to reach the earthquake victims in Haiti, or for those seeking employment to find jobs, etc.

After all, the Bible does tell us:

Matthew 7:
verse 7 - “Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.”
verse 11 - “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!”

 

[jmcrae]

There are many ways to describe and understand prayer but my question here is between the two main models of prayer:

1. Prayer as act of our will. We pray to God to influence him to affect a change. For example, we pray for rain or for a cure to a disease or for for the salvation of a departed loved one.
2. Prayer as a submission to the will of God. We pray to understand God’s will and accept things as they are or to choose (non-prayer) actions in accordance with God’s will. For example, we pray to understand why a spouse has died and whether we should remarry or to come to terms with a traged such as the earthquake in Haiti or even to deal with a beneficial windfall such as winning the lottery.

There are some who argue that the first form of prayer is idoltry but even praying to understand God’s will seems at least in part to be a request for God to act (i.e. to impart knowledge to us miraculously).

At its most basic, prayer is me and God, talking together.

One shouldn’t complicate it to more than that. I don’t think there are any “forbidden” topics of conversation with God - I think that if you want God to protect you from your enemies and from natural disasters, then talk to Him about that. Obviously the final decision will be His, but there is no harm in asking Him for these things. He cares about every detail of our lives just as much as we do, and He is interested in hearing from us on all of them. Nobody should ever “feel bad” about praying about something that makes them feel anxious, just because the neighbor at the end of the block thinks it’s a trivial issue and laughs at them for bringing it up.

 

[Lampo]

There are many ways to describe and understand prayer but my question here is between the two main models of prayer:

1. Prayer as act of our will. We pray to God to influence him to affect a change. For example, we pray for rain or for a cure to a disease or for for the salvation of a departed loved one.
2. Prayer as a submission to the will of God. We pray to understand God’s will and accept things as they are or to choose (non-prayer) actions in accordance with God’s will. For example, we pray to understand why a spouse has died and whether we should remarry or to come to terms with a traged such as the earthquake in Haiti or even to deal with a beneficial windfall such as winning the lottery.

There are some who argue that the first form of prayer is idoltry but even praying to understand God’s will seems at least in part to be a request for God to act (i.e. to impart knowledge to us miraculously).

I’ve just started reading “The Better Part”, by Fr. John Bartunek. I seriously wish every Catholic could read his introductory essay on how to pray. It is a Christ-Centered resource for personal prayer. He explains vocal prayer and mental/interior prayer. You might find it helpful. It says prayer is conversation with Christ initiated by Christ. It is the only way we can truly have a relationship with our Lord.
The Better Part

 

[tbcrawford]

What is prayer? Prayer is our direct line with heaven. Prayer is a communication process that allows us to talk to God! He wants us to communicate with Him.

What does the Bible tell us:
Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and make you new in Him! “Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins” (Acts 3:19).
Tell Him your needs! “Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about what happens to you” (1 Peter 5:7).
Thank Him, for He died on the cross at Calvary for us! “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).
Jesus set an example for us on what to pray. He prayed for His disciples and for every generation to come that would follow Him. His prayer was that God protect and strengthen them as long as they were in this world. Jesus also prayed for those who would come to believe in Him through the Gospel message (John 17).

"I pray that your love for each other will overflow more and more, and that you will keep on growing in your knowledge and understanding” (Philippians 1:9).

We know to pray and how to pray by Jesus example to us all.

 

[Ignatius]

There are many ways to describe and understand prayer but my question here is between the two main models of prayer:

1. Prayer as act of our will. We pray to God to influence him to affect a change. For example, we pray for rain or for a cure to a disease or for for the salvation of a departed loved one.
2. Prayer as a submission to the will of God. We pray to understand God’s will and accept things as they are or to choose (non-prayer) actions in accordance with God’s will. For example, we pray to understand why a spouse has died and whether we should remarry or to come to terms with a traged such as the earthquake in Haiti or even to deal with a beneficial windfall such as winning the lottery.

There are some who argue that the first form of prayer is idoltry but even praying to understand God’s will seems at least in part to be a request for God to act (i.e. to impart knowledge to us miraculously).

Actually, to pray means simply to petition or ask.
I pray thee, kind sire, delve ye into the etymology of thee worde.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Thanks for all the great responses.

One of the most consistent replies is that prayer is a “conversation” with God. With notable exceptions, it’s a rather one-sided conversation, though?

The conversation model is closer to the second option in my OP than the view offered by most as exemplified here:

Actually, to pray means simply to petition or ask. I pray thee, kind sire, delve ye into the etymology of thee worde.

This is, of course, a traditional concept of prayer, one that preceeds Christianity and Judaism; this is how pagans prayed. I can’t recall where I’ve heard option 2 argued but the gist was that prayer as pleading for action was a pagan tradition, not a Judeo-Christian one. Of course, there are plenty of Biblical examples to the contrary but the argument goes that they were unenlightened views as opposed to the more modern view of prayer as contemplation and acceptance of God’s will.

 

[Lampo]

With notable exceptions, it’s a rather one-sided conversation, though?

No. Prayer *always *starts with God. He initiates it. It might *feel *one-sided, but prayer isn’t about how it makes you feel. Prayer is your relationship with Christ. Prayer takes practice…and prayer. Pray to become better at praying.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks for all the great responses.

One of the most consistent replies is that prayer is a “conversation” with God. With notable exceptions, it’s a rather one-sided conversation, though?

Not at all.

I needed a key one time, and someone was refusing to give it to me. I prayed in front of the Tabernacle, “What do I do?” I stood up, turned around, and someone was standing there waiting to give me the key I needed.

He definitely answers!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Not at all. I needed a key one time, and someone was refusing to give it to me. I prayed in front of the Tabernacle, “What do I do?” I stood up, turned around, and someone was standing there waiting to give me the key I needed. He definitely answers!

That really doesn’t sound like a “conversation” (which is not to say that prayer is pointless).

No. Prayer *always *starts with God. He initiates it. It might *feel *one-sided, but prayer isn’t about how it makes you feel. Prayer is your relationship with Christ. Prayer takes practice…and prayer. Pray to become better at praying.

That sounds a bit like advice to wait by the telephone for God to call (unless you’re simply referring to God as a prime mover).

 

[jmcrae]

That really doesn’t sound like a “conversation” (which is not to say that prayer is pointless).

God also speaks to me in my thoughts, and I have even “heard” His voice speaking to me under extraordinary circumstances, but mostly, God responds to me through other people and through the natural course of events.

I think the reason for this is that it is extremely difficult to apprehend God by means of our senses, and it’s hard to know whether we are actually seeing/hearing God, or just creating an illusion for ourselves out of our own wishful thinking. So, God uses more unmistakeable means to communicate with us.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

God also speaks to me in my thoughts, and I have even “heard” His voice speaking to me under extraordinary circumstances, but mostly, God responds to me through other people and through the natural course of events.

I think the reason for this is that it is extremely difficult to apprehend God by means of our senses, and it’s hard to know whether we are actually seeing/hearing God, or just creating an illusion for ourselves out of our own wishful thinking. So, God uses more unmistakeable means to communicate with us.

Ok, I’m interested in better understanding the former experience. Obviously I’ve never experienced anything like this (or maybe just didn’t apprehend it as God). And I’m setting aside, for this discussion, the grand miracles that are clearly by the hand of God.

Perhaps you could share an example of the apprehension of God’s voice similar to your story of the key.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, I’m interested in better understanding the former experience. Obviously I’ve never experienced anything like this (or maybe just didn’t apprehend it as God). And I’m setting aside, for this discussion, the grand miracles that are clearly by the hand of God.

Perhaps you could share an example of the apprehension of God’s voice similar to your story of the key.

Okay.

1. I am talking on the phone (not praying) - several things led up to this; it was not out of the blue, but nevertheless, I am talking on the phone, and suddenly, a voice comes out of nowhere and tells me, “It’s time. You have to convert to the Catholic faith right now.” That one totally blew my mind; if you want the long version, click on my “2001” link, in my signature.
2. All the arrangements made, I’m getting set to start RCIA, and I’m leaving my Protestant church for the last time. As I’m walking out, I hear someone playing the organ - it’s “Sheep Safely Graze.” Now, to understand this, you need to understand that I had only ever attended “Praise Masses” up to this point; I had no idea that Catholics had such things as organs in their churches. 'kay, so I say to Jesus, “You do realize what I’m giving up here, right?” Little voice in my head chuckles and says, “It’s okay. Trust me, you are not giving anything up.”

Yeah, right.

I get to the Catholic Church, and guess what; someone is playing on the organ. You got it: “Sheep Safely Graze.” Little voice in my head: “See? Nothing to worry about.” Naturally, I break down in tears, and everyone thinks I’m either drunk or crazy; heck of a welcome for my first day in the Catholic Church, but oh well, I know it’s where I’m supposed to be - God told me so, in person.

1. Going to Confession; I rehearse what I’m going to say to the priest, and that same little voice in my head starts telling me what I need to do; how to fix this problem. Go into Confession, the priest says the exact same things, word for word. Yeah, okay, that was Jesus in my head alright - and the priest is, in fact, His person.
2. Standing in line for Confession the next time, and doing the same thing - rehearsing my Confession, and Jesus starts talking to me, so I say to Him, “Uh - so, why do I need to go in there, since I can talk to You directly?” He says, as distinctly as if He were standing right next to me - “So that you can love him as I have loved you, and so that he can love you as I have loved him.”

But this sort of thing doesn’t happen all the time, and I can’t really predict when it’s going to. All I do is pray and trust and realize that He is hearing me, even when He doesn’t respond how I expect Him to, or even, sometimes, at all which is probably most of the time.

 

[Pug]

For me, prayer is about remembering God and staying in reality. If I let myself go on through the day without thinking or awareness, I come up with all sorts of silly stuff, like that what I really care about is that I look good in spandex, or that the best deal in town is whatever maximizes my personal comfort today, or that the only way to be secure is to do what other people want, or, most likely, that I am unduly important.

Without prayer, I am fundamentally of less use to my fellow man. Maybe prayer is a little like eating our vegetables. We need to connect with the source of our life.

 

[Lampo]

What do you picture yourself doing when you start to pray? What image, conscious or not, do you have in mind? Maybe you see yourself merely fulfilling a duty, as when you mechanically recited the Pledge of Allegiance at the start of homeroom in elementary school. Maybe you see prayer as an exercise in self-mastery and self-help, an activity like yoga, aerobics, or weightlifting that keeps you fit. Whatever you *think *you are doing when you pray affects the *way *in which you do it. So the more your idea of prayer matches God’s, the better.

Prayer at its most basic level is conversation with God. This seems obvious, but it harbors an awesome reality. To converse with someone implies that that someone wants to pay attention to you, otherwise you have a monologue, not a conversation. The mere existence of prayer, then, implies that God is paying attention, that he is interested in spending time with you. Christian prayer is an invitation from God to the one who prayes - it starts with God, not with you.

The whole Christian edifice is built on this simple but awe-inspiring reality. The Catechism highlights it in its very first numbers: “At every time and in every place, God draws close to man…God never ceases to draw man to himself” (1,27) God is always drawing close to you, and he is always drawing you closer to him. That means he is always thinking of you, just like the Good Shepherd who is always thinking of and watching over his sheep. Prayer starts here.

You are the lost and hungry sheep; God is the shepherd who knows what you desire and need and is guiding you to the lush fields and cool, refreshing waters of his Truth and Love. The shepherd sees the big picture, the whole landscape, the weather, the seasons, the dangers and the opportunities; the sheep can only focus on this little patch of grass here, and then that one over there. Prayers is the Good Shepherd, wise and loving, guiding the hungry, shortsighted, and needy sheep.

God is the real protagonist of Christian prayer. Prayer is the soul’s response to God’s initiative. The essence of Christian prayer is relationship. As the Catechism puts it: “Great is the mystery of the faith!”…This mystery, the, requires tha the rfaithful believe in it, that they celebrate it, and that they live from it in a vital and personal relationship with the living and true God. This relationship is prayer. (2558)

Prayer, then, is more than just a dry religious duty, mre than self-centered and self-sufficient self-help techniques; Christian prayer is a friendship with God in Christ. It’s being led by the Good Shepherd to ever richer pastures in the Father’s Kingdom.
-The Better Part, by Fr. John Bartunek, LC, pg 18-19.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

Actually, to pray means simply to petition or ask. I pray thee, kind sire, delve ye into the etymology of thee worde.

This is, of course … preceeds Christianity and Judaism; .

You need to do a little scholarship my friend. The Christianity is 2000 years old and Judaism is at least 4000 years old. The modern English language developed less than 600 years ago.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You need to do a little scholarship my friend. The Christianity is 2000 years old and Judaism is at least 4000 years old. The modern English language developed less than 600 years ago.

Obviously I was referring to the activity and practice of prayer, not to the English word “prayer”. The former is older than the Bible, both the King James version and the Hebrew Torah.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Okay.1…2…3…4.

Thanks for the real-world examples. These are, of course, quite significant. But, even so, only the last comes close to a “conversation”.

But this sort of thing doesn’t happen all the time, and I can’t really predict when it’s going to. All I do is pray and trust and realize that He is hearing me, even when He doesn’t respond how I expect Him to, or even, sometimes, at all which is probably most of the time.

I think this is the general form of prayer that most of us are familiar with.

Lempo quoted (no source given):

Prayer at its most basic level is conversation with God. This seems obvious, but it harbors an awesome reality. To converse with someone implies that that someone wants to pay attention to you, otherwise you have a monologue, not a conversation. The mere existence of prayer, then, implies that God is paying attention, that he is interested in spending time with you. Christian prayer is an invitation from God to the one who prayes - it starts with God, not with you.

But a monologue does have an audience (presumably), though usually an audience of many, not one (e.g. a late night comedian giving a monologue introduction to the show).

Even insofar as we are confident that God is listening to our prayers, that doesn’t make a conversation in the sense that we use the word elsewhere.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

For me, prayer is about remembering God and staying in reality. If I let myself go on through the day without thinking or awareness, I come up with all sorts of silly stuff, like that what I really care about is that I look good in spandex, or that the best deal in town is whatever maximizes my personal comfort today, or that the only way to be secure is to do what other people want, or, most likely, that I am unduly important. Without prayer, I am fundamentally of less use to my fellow man. Maybe prayer is a little like eating our vegetables. We need to connect with the source of our life.

This sounds much more like the #2 alternative described in the OP.

 

[Pug]

This sounds much more like the #2 alternative described in the OP.

Yes, perhaps you are right. I don’t usually conceive of it as asking God what I ought to do, though. I do that now and then, but mostly I’m going to do the same old stuff every day, like drive to work, fix dinner, talk with people, etc., and I typically don’t ask God if I should do those things or not. It’s just that I can do those same old things in one of two ways, thoughtfully and connected with God, or not.

And that is how you seem very right to me, that in order for me to be thoughtful, this requires his assistance (grace/gift), which even if I am not consciously asking for it, I do desire it and need it. I know the place to draw from the well of life is to talk to Him. I might just pray, “Heavenly Father, you gave us your Son.” Full stop. But I can see how that interaction has petition underneath it. I have approached him because he is God, the source of all. I am aware of that. I think it is fundamental to Christian awareness that we are creatures who are dependent upon God. The last thing we want is to be separated from him, so that is also present in the interaction. “Give us our daily bread. Forgive us.” Those are dependency and wanting to be together/right with him, respectively.