What is Protestantism?

[With_Questions]

FYI With Questions, the United Church if Christ does have the three distinctive features of Protestantism that serve to distinguish it from Roman Catholicism.

The UCC states the following on its website:

This can be found on their website on the ABOUT US page under the heading ‘Characteristics of the United Church of Christ’. (Click HERE to go there.)

You were, quite obviously, looking in the WRONG place for this information.

Look, I have NEVER met any Protestant that denies the exclusivity of the Bible (aka Sola Scriptura). I have NEVER net any Protestant that denies salvation by grave through faith and faith alone. I have NEVER met any Protestant that denies the priesthood of all believers. The same goes for my daughter who is friends with many Protestants and who even attended a Protestant (Baptist) high school for a couple of years.

God Bless.

Jean

Hmm.

I have changed my mind. That is possible for me to do given sufficient evidence.

If the United Church of Christ takes pains to say that they believe in these three items (when really they do not), then perhaps these three items are informal standards of Protestant (there are not of course any formal standards) and the United Church of Christ was saying “Hey we are Protestant too”. Do you get the impression I really do not like the “United Church of Christ”.

That would be if the following caveats are applied

(1) Exclusivity of the Bible is not the same as Sola Scriptura. There are many Protestants (myself included) that do not believe in Sola Scriptura (unless it is very broadly defined) but do believe in Prima Scriptura.

(2) Salvation by grace through faith is not the same as faith alone. Now I don’t really have problems with faith alone but would prefer for the sake of clarity that it be “living faith alone” (when I use faith I assume that it is living faith).

(3) I can’t think think of any caveats on Priesthood of believers. Now I think I do believe in Priesthood of believers, but I do confess to being not as studied on that one as the others.

I do not want to tell you what you believe, but I have read articles by Jimmy Akin (surprise a Catholic author I actually sort of like) that gave me the impression that Catholics do not have issues with Prima Scriptura and that they can accept living faith alone (actually Jimmy Akin used another word formed faith or something like that, I was putting it in Wesley terms). But that is another topic. Maybe sometime I will start threads “Do Catholics believe in prima scriptura” and “living faith alone” if I can find the articles by Jimy Akin that I read once. I am honestly curious on those points.

 

[Peter_J]

You compare this to asking my friend to pray for me.
It’s really not the same thing. But that’s how Catholics are taught to believe.

I agree that it’s “not the same thing”. It’s similar, but not the same.

St. Thomas Aquinas would agree with you as well. It the Summa Theologica, in the section “Whether we ought to pray to God alone?”, he includes this objection:

Objection 3: Further, if we pray to any of the saints, this is only because they are united to God. Now some yet living in this world, or even some who are in Purgatory, are closely united to God by grace, and yet we do not pray to them. Therefore neither should we pray to the saints who are in Paradise.

To which he responds:

Reply to Objection 3: Those who are in this world or in Purgatory, do not yet enjoy the vision of the Word, so as to be able to know what we think or say. Wherefore we do not seek their assistance by praying to them, but ask it of the living by speaking to them.

 

[Jean_1958]

I do not want to tell you what you believe, but I have read articles by Jimmy Akin (surprise a Catholic author I actually sort of like) that gave me the impression that Catholics do not have issues with Prima Scriptura and that they can accept living faith alone (actually Jimmy Akin used another word formed faith or something like that, I was putting it in Wesley terms). But that is another topic. Maybe sometime I will start threads “Do Catholics believe in prima scriptura” and “living faith alone” if I can find the articles by Jimy Akin that I read once. I am honestly curious on those points.

Surprise! Jimmy Akin is the Director of Apologetics and Evangelization here at Catholic Answers. He is a Protestant convert to Catholicism. I think his book, *The Salvation *Controversy, will answer many of your questions on Catholicism much better than I.

I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit lead you here.

God Bless.

Jean

 

[Jimmy_B]

Since that word is bandied about quite a bit here, I thought I might ask a stupid question. What exactly is Protestantism?

Hello With Questions,

**No, I don’t think it is a stupid question. However, by reading your follow-up posts here, it appears you already know what Protestant and Protestantism mean, or at least…. what you would like them to mean and maybe that we Catholics should stop using those words, all-to-gather….Right? **

****Protestants, involved in Protestantism (that would be all non-Catholic Christians after Reformation) who reject either of these two words and their definitions, are rejecting Christian history and attempting to remove yet another aspect of Christianity, because it involves the Catholic Church. ****

**That’s what Protestantism is, it is the rejection of Christian truths, contained within Catholicism. **

It appears that many Protestants today, would like to forget that Catholicism ever existed and forget that Catholicism was here for fifteen-hundred years before any other Protestant denomination; and forget things like - where they got their Bible from….answer - the Catholic Church.

But hey, why should this be a surprise? This is what Protestants have been doing for over five-hundred years now….re-writing Christian history, re-writing the Bible and “re-inventing” Christianity.

Protestantism is nothing more than the religion of one’s own intellect and is not the divided “Church” that Christ started.

****There are more than 30,000 plus, non-Catholic, Christian denominations today. What words do you suggest, to describe that mess? ****How about - “God on your own terms -30,000+ times”?

I hope this helps.

 

[With_Questions]

Hello With Questions,

No, I don’t think it is a stupid question. However, by reading your follow-up posts here, it appears you already know what Protestant and Protestantism mean, or at least…. what you would like them to mean and maybe that we Catholics should stop using those words, all-to-gather….Right?

Hmm…no.

I have never objectede to the word Protestant.

And I have come around to the possibility that the word Protestantism might have some limited meaning.

But at the least, Protestantism is abused here. My pet peeve is when some belief that I (and other Protestants I know) do not buy into, is held up as a belief of Protestantism, thereby attributed to all Protestants.

You can’t have it two ways. For example you can’t insist that all non (Orthodox,Catholic) Christians who believe in the trinity are Protestants and then turn around and say that Protestantism exists.

Either you have to exclude certain groups that are commonly considered Protestant as Protestant or you have to forego the term Protestantism.

That’s what Protestantism is, it is the rejection of Christian truths, contained within Catholicism.

So the Orthodox are Protestants? Interesting.

It appears that many Protestants today, would like to forget that Catholicism ever existed and forget that Catholicism was here for fifteen-hundred years before any other Protestant denomination; and forget things like - where they got their Bible from….answer - the Catholic Church.

Meh…at least you say the word many so I will give you a pass and not quibble over numbers.

But hey, why should this be a surprise? This is what Protestants have been doing for over five-hundred years now….re-writing Christian history, re-writing the Bible and “re-inventing” Christianity.

But now you are getting over the top. How can you rewrite Christian history. Facts is facts. It is what it is. But anyway.

Protestantism is nothing more than the religion of one’s own intellect and is not the divided “Church” that Christ started.

Still over the top. You do not help your case here.

****There are more than 30,000 plus, non-Catholic, Christian denominations today. What words do you suggest, to describe that mess? ****How about - “God on your own terms -30,000+ times”?

I hope this helps.

Sometime I would like someone to supply a link that enumerates the 30,000 denominations that exist. Otherwise I suspect this number is pulled out of thin air.

Hey I can make up numbers too. How about 6,235,798 denominations.

But that is a separate topic.

 

[With_Questions]

Surprise! Jimmy Akin is the Director of Apologetics and Evangelization here at Catholic Answers. He is a Protestant convert to Catholicism. I think his book, *The Salvation *Controversy, will answer many of your questions on Catholicism much better than I.

I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit lead you here.

God Bless.

Jean

Don’t get too excited.

I like Billy Graham too. It does not necessarily mean that I am going to become a Baptist.

But seriously, despite the efforts of some here to undermine their efforts by going over-the-top, serious Catholic writers such as Jimmy Akin have convinced me that Catholicism is not this great, evil, nonChristian religion that some fundamentalists (who also like to get over-the-top) would have me believe that it is.

And that is a good thing methinks.

 

[Contarini]

FYI With Questions, the United Church if Christ does have the three distinctive features of Protestantism that serve to distinguish it from Roman Catholicism.

The UCC states the following on its website:

This can be found on their website on the ABOUT US page under the heading ‘Characteristics of the United Church of Christ’. (Click HERE to go there.)

You were, quite obviously, looking in the WRONG place for this information.

Look, I have NEVER met any Protestant that denies the exclusivity of the Bible (aka Sola Scriptura).

Exclusivity with respect to what? The problem with a phrase like this is that it can mean a lot of things.

I have NEVER net any Protestant that denies salvation by grave through faith and faith alone.

Again, you have to qualify what this means. Many Protestants–Wesleyans and Anabaptists for starters–believe that perseverance to the end in doing good works is necessary for final salvation. Anyone who does not strive to obey Christ and live a life of holiness will fall away from grace and (in the absence of repentance) will finally be lost. And in fact even Martin Luther said this (in an indirect sense–he wouldn’t want to say that good works were necessary for salvation, but he did say that anyone who didn’t struggle against the works of the flesh would cease to be a believer) in his Galatians commentary. Yet you will find Protestants–especially Baptists–who will claim that this belief is the essence of what is wrong with Catholicism and the thing that divides Protestants from Catholics.

Edwin

 

[universalist]

As with most posts i,ve seen here relating to so called Protestantism,my eyes immediately gloss over and my eyelids get heavy as I continue to hear over and over and over from Roman Catholics the same old party line" we are the one true Church,etc,etc,etc,yada,yada,yada,zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Jimmy_B]

Ok, here is a simple question for all of the Protestants here, who claim that they are not Protestant…Which Bible do you use?..Which Bible does your denomination use?

Catholics use a Catholic Bible and Protestants use a Protestant Bible. Protestants use a Bible based on the King James Version (KJV), you know, the Bible where the Catholic books were removed, Catholic verses were removed, words were translated in a way to make the Bible appear less “Catholic’, the footnotes in a KJV Bible ignore the Catholic verses and focus on the “Protestant verses……and so on and so on……

Oops, I guess there is a difference and there are ways to determine if someone is Protestant….for example, the Bible one uses might be the first clue…

The second clue, could be how they feel about Mary, the Mother of God…

If you have a problem with the term Protestant, then convert to Catholicism…problem solved.

I have no problem being called a Catholic… as a matter of fact; I take a great deal of pride in being called a Roman Catholic.

I am a Roman Catholic!

 

[BrianH]

Ok, here is a simple question for all of the Protestants here, who claim that they are not Protestant…Which Bible do you use?..Which Bible does your denomination use?

Catholics use a Catholic Bible and Protestants use a Protestant Bible. Protestants use a Bible based on the King James Version (KJV), you know, the Bible where the Catholic books were removed, Catholic verses were removed, words were translated in a way to make the Bible appear less “Catholic’, the footnotes in a KJV Bible ignore the Catholic verses and focus on the “Protestant verses……and so on and so on……]

The disputed books were not placed in a separate section in 1611 but in the 1530s with the Luther Bible.

 

[Jimmy_B]

The disputed books were not placed in a separate section in 1611 but in the 1530s with the Luther Bible.

Hello BrianH,

Who disputed the Books? The Catholic Church doesn’t disput “those books” removed by Protestants.

It was Protestants, based on their own, imagined “infallibility” and imagined “infallible” personal interpretations, viewing the Bible, a Catholic Book, through an anti –Catholic, Protestant lens, who disputed those “books”…not the Catholic Church.

You know I am right about this, don’t you?

This response here, doesn’t answer my questions?

Please try again, thank you.

 

[BrianH]

Hello BrianH,

Who disputed the Books? The Catholic Church doesn’t disput “those books” removed by Protestants.

It was Protestants, based on their own, imagined “infallibility” and imagined “infallible” personal interpretations, viewing the Bible, a Catholic Book, through an anti –Catholic, Protestant lens, who disputed those “books”…not the Catholic Church.

You know I am right about this, don’t you?

This response here, doesn’t answer my questions?

Please try again, thank you.

What an interesting response.
As far as who disputed the books, the history of Christianity shows that at different times Christians have discussed and debated the contents of the canon. One of the reasons we have different canons among Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants. Many different Christians had thoughts and wrote about what books they considered inspired. I even read on here awhile back someone who contended the Waldensians may have disputed them as well back in the twelfth century, I would like to hear about that. I googled it and came up with some books to read.
Anyway…
It seemed like your response was equating the decision of where to put the deuterocanoncial books with the translators of the KJV when in fact many other Bibles prior to 1611 had done just that.
I am not sure what you believe you are right about…

 

[With_Questions]

Ok, here is a simple question for all of the Protestants here, who claim that they are not Protestant…Which Bible do you use?..Which Bible does your denomination use?

Since I have no problems being called Protestant, I will let this pass.

 

[Jimmy_B]

… I even read on here awhile back someone who contended the Waldensians may have disputed them as well back in the twelfth century, I would like to hear about that…

Hello again BrianH,

Isn’t this interesting….you are more interested in a single human being, who may have been apposed to the early Church and might support your Protestant position than you are, any early Christian, prior to Protestantism, who called themselves Catholic…

Why do you and many other Protestants today, ignore and reject early Christian history?

Why do many Protestants today, ignore and reject the early writings of the early Christian Saints.

Why do many Protestants today, ignore and reject the Lives of the Saints?

Why do you and many other Protestants today, ignore and reject early Christian traditions?

Why do you and many other Protestants today, ignore and reject early Christian teachings?

Why do you and many other Protestants today, reject the early Christian (Catholic) Church, all of the early Doctors of the Church and all of the early Fathers of the Church?

Isn’t this the “stumbling block” that we were all warned about?

 

[BrianH]

Hello again BrianH,

Isn’t this interesting….you are more interested in a single human being, who may have been apposed to the early Church and might support your Protestant position than you are, any early Christian, prior to Protestantism, who called themselves Catholic…

Why do you and many other Protestants today, ignore and reject early Christian history?

I do not think I do. Perhaps you could give me an example of a specific area.

Why do many Protestants today, ignore and reject the early writings of the early Christian Saints.

I do not ignore them. I have written on them and studied them formally and informally.

Why do many Protestants today, ignore and reject the Lives of the Saints?

Good question. I do not reject anyones life; I am not sure how I would do that. I read many of the early church doctors. But in general I think that most people are conditioned based upon their upbringing. I also think that many people view any historical figure with a certain degree of skepticism anymore…but that would not be the prevailing reason.

COLOR=black]

Why do you and many other Protestants today, ignore and reject early Christian traditions?
I do not know what specific traditions you believe we reject. Can you be specific?

Why do you and many other Protestants today, ignore and reject early Christian teachings?

Deja vu

COLOR=black]

Why do you and many other Protestants today, reject the early Christian (Catholic) Church, all of the early Doctors of the Church and all of the early Fathers of the Church?
I do not think we do.
I do think people can be consumed with extrabiblical practices. I think that the areas clearly presented in scripture you will find a large level of agreement between us.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20060125_bolen-methodists_en.html

Isn’t this the “stumbling block” that we were all warned about?

I do not think so. Interesting interpretation.

 

[Jimmy_B]

…I do think people can be consumed with extrabiblical practices. I think that the areas clearly presented in scripture you will find a large level of agreement between us.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/meth-council-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20060125_bolen-methodists_en.html

Hello again BrianH,

I agree, and Ecumenicalism is good, as long as one does not sacrifice any aspect of their Catholic faith, for the purpose of Ecumenicalism.

One should never reject any Christian truth contained in Catholicism, which represents the Full Deposit of Faith.

The purpose of Ecumenicalism, isn’t to make Catholics “more Protestant”, it is to help Protestants become “more Catholic” and bring them home where they belong, the Catholic Church.

Rejection of a Christian truth is a rejection of Christ Himself!

Most people know and understand that there exist a difference between the roles of a Secretary of State and a Secretary of Defense.

 

[LutheranDK]

Since that word is bandied about quite a bit here, I thought I might ask a stupid question. What exactly is Protestantism?

Trying to be as objective as possible here…

“Protestant” is originally a slur, like the N-word so famous in America, and many others. A demeaning term, used of those churches who sprung from the Reformation. The term used by the churches themselves is “Evangelical” (not at ALL to be confused with the modern use of that word!!!). Luther hated it when people called themselves “Lutherans” (also originally an RC slur…).

But over the course of history, the word has entered common use, and “protestants” themselves now use the word without thinking about it.
Although I never describe myself as “protestant”…

 

[Tomster]

Tomster:

I think Protestants will disagree with your analysis.

Now I have heard on these forums that Catholics don’t like it when Protestants say they worship Mary and worship dead saints.

I suggest that you provide Protestants the same courtesy that Catholics ask from them.

Just pointing out facts, that’s all. I suppose if you polled different adherents from the different branches of Protestantism they would agree and disagree on the points that I have made with no unity coming out of their analysis.

Another term you might want to take a look at is “indifferentism”. Protestantism is filled with it.

The belief that all religions are good and useful for this life and the next is termed religious indifferentism.

In the 18th century, Illuminism putting aside divine revelation and reducing religious doctrine and practice to a few rational principles, inaugurated naturalistic religious indifferentism (akin to deism), which spread extensively in the past two centuries with the help of the autonomous moralism of Kant. From the breakdown of Protestantism into hundreds of different sects there arose, on the other hand, a sort of supernaturalistic indifferentism, which judges equally useful for eternal salvation all the Christian forms that lay claim to divine revelation. Protestants have attempted to unite all their sects in a common religious unity of minimum content, and even invited the Catholic Church into this hybrid union!

This supernaturalistic indiffernetism is absurd, because by giving the same value to conflicting religions it puts God, who would be the Revealer of them, in contradiction with Himself.