What is Purgatory and some details on it? Biblically

[zrs6v4]

In relation to what Protestants term the “Apochypha” and the Cathokic term “Deuterocanonical” books. They consist of 7 OT books, Tobi, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch.
These books were included in Every Bible of the Catholic Church from 400 AD onwards. Thus these books were part of the 72 book canon for better than 1000 years before the Reformation and the idea of “Sola Scriptura” came along. It was at this point that Martin Luther determined to remove these books from the Bible. (He also wanted to remove some NT books such as Revelation, James, and others.) First they were retained but placed ni a seperate section, and then very quickly removed altogether from the KJV and other Protestant Bibles.

So the Doctrine of Purgatory is built partly upon “Scriptural Texts” that have been removed from your “Infallible Word of God”.

I don’t mean to offend but it just strikes me that the first thing that The Reformers did after deciding that All you need is the Bible is to decide that The Bible was wrong and needed changing.

Peace
James

Thank you for the clarification. I am not in the dark for why I believe the way I do. I am not going to give a large argument in regards to why I don’t think these writings are not Scripture. There is a whole lot more to your argument and it is in my opinion, incomplete and I encourage if you haven’t to read into both sides of the argument and get all the details.

 

[zrs6v4]

zrs6v4;5655163:

Thank you.

No you aren’t missing my point. What you call increased humility, love, repentence, and faith I call the results of a soul being conformed to Christ. Or a soul being purged of a sinfull nature . The earthly counterpart reveals how likely it is that it won’t be complete during our earthly life. Who can say they have paid the judge every last penny before their earthly life ended? Maybe they have, but who could know it for sure?
I think I connect it because I see the life of Christ’s body extending into the ‘next life’ Jesus so often spoke of. 'When you enter into life" is how Jesus refered to the end of earthly life. As if our life on earth is a womb experience. So I don’t expect to experience a long slumber or anything. He didn’t teach that sort of thing.

Ok sorry, I’ve got another question.

So basically when one is saved and covered by Christ he or she will need to be purged of the sinful nature that is covered before entering heaven, and this can be done on earth or in a place “purgatory” after death before he enters heaven depending on the person?

the part I am confused on is how much sin needs to be purged from someone before they enter heaven? if the answer is all sin, then how is someone to do that here on earth when they are always going to sin to some degree.

 

[WarriorofJesus]

The purgatory is something biblical and it exists within the Holy Scriptures. It is a place where the souls of those that weren’t sinless enough to be able to go to heaven have to go. It is requiered for them to go there to pay off all the ofenses that were made to God while they lived their earthly life here down on earth. No one goes to God in a “half”, “almost made it”, “that close”, “kind of”, “just needed a little more” pure state. It’s either sinless plus pure soul or there is no direct entrance to heaven. Those souls have to purify themselves with fire in order to become sinless. Trust me, that fire isn’t cool at all and it causes you sufferments and pain. But there is another option of purifying yourself in purgatory: the prayers and masses that people offer to the souls of purgatory. That is why it is important to keep the belief of Purgatory alive so that people can pray for them and not make them go through the purifying fire of purgatory but instead recieve prayers and masses in their names.

Holy Scripture that supports the existence of Purgatory:

1 of Peter 3:19 talks about Jesus going to talk to the spirits that were in prison or held. That was right after he died.

Yes we all sin while we are in earth but that doesn’t mean that we cant go directly to heaven. Those that will go to heaven are those that are free from sin. Remember that love covers a lot of sins and the more love you have within your heart, the more sins God will not take notice of. Remember that love covers a multitude of sins. For those that are forgiven are those that show more love to others. That’s why you have to remain in a pure state at all times and try to avoid any type of sin. praying the Rosary will help you keep a sinles life and mantain yourself sin-free. Other options of having a saint life is to go to confesion and asist at the masses. In conclusion, having a direct entrance to heaven without having to take a step in purgatory is possible while living here on earth.

 

[Benadam]

the part I am confused on is how much sin needs to be purged from someone before they enter heaven? if the answer is all sin, then how is someone to do that here on earth when they are always going to sin to some degree.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for the clarification. I am not in the dark for why I believe the way I do. I am not going to give a large argument in regards to why I don’t think these writings are not Scripture. There is a whole lot more to your argument and it is in my opinion, incomplete and I encourage if you haven’t to read into both sides of the argument and get all the details.

I agree that it would be off topic to pursue the development of the canon of Scripture and I agree we should not go there on this thread.

You are welcome. Glad I could help.
The reason I wanted to clarify is that, becuase the Protestant Bible is missing books contained in the official Christian Bibles of the previous 1000 years and thus are missing some of the scriptural contexts for the development of some doctrine, Purgatory in particular.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

This is not “Biblical” but I think it gives a wonderful insight into the Idea of a Purgation.
It is from the Dialogues os St Catherine of Sienna. Section 27

As the righteous, who have lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb, when the extremity of death comes, see the good which I have prepared for them, and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to Me, the Supreme and Eternal Good. And so they taste eternal life before they have left the mortal body, that is, before the soul be separated from the body.

"Others who have passed their lives, and have arrived at the last extremity of death with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace My mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained My mercy, counting My mercy greater than their sins.
“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred, as I told you. So that neither the one nor the other waits for judgment, but, in departing this life, they receive every one their place, as I have told you, and they taste it and possess it before they depart from the body, at the extremity of death – the damned with hatred and with despair, and the perfect ones with love and the light of faith and with the hope of the Blood. And the imperfect arrive at the place of Purgatory, with mercy and the same faith.”

I invite you to ponder the above carefully and in light of The Great Commandment of Love, and the command Also that we be “Perfect as our Heavenly Father is Perfect”.

Regardless of how we each view the details of salvation, justification, faith, works and all the other things, Ithinke we can all agree that most of us will meet death in an “imperfect” state, having not perfected our “Love”. To the degree that we are imperfect, and reach out to God’s Mercy He will all tha tis necessary to “Purge” our lingering imperfections and thus complete us and bring us into the Beatific vision.
The precise details or “timeline” of this purification or “Purgation” we cannot know since it takes place outside of our “timeline”. We must leave such “details” to God.

Peace
James

P.S. I have been working my way through the Dialogues Slowly and am finding much that is useful in understanding Scripture. Check out the link above and you’ll see how many different areas are covered.

James

 

[zrs6v4]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am very confident now as I am understanding Purgatory more and more that it is not biblical. I am not trying to be a jerk or start a fight by the way, just being honest to my opinion. To say we die in some sort of sin under the grace of God and then have to pay for it would be the same as saying Jesus’ payment wasn’t quite efficient enough. Nobody is holy alone but because of Christ we are made holy and are covered by His blood at this time and will be truly holy at the redemption of our bodies. Every person in Christ is a saint/Holy/new creation by Jesus work not theirs and thus will all obtain the inheritance at the end. I am sure we have some agreements and some disagreements here, but I think it is clear that we will not have to pay any debt of any sort when we die in Christ.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I am very confident now as I am understanding Purgatory more and more that it is not biblical. I am not trying to be a jerk or start a fight by the way, just being honest to my opinion. To say we die in some sort of sin under the grace of God and then have to pay for it would be the same as saying Jesus’ payment wasn’t quite efficient enough. Nobody is holy alone but because of Christ we are made holy and are covered by His blood at this time and will be truly holy at the redemption of our bodies. Every person in Christ is a saint/Holy/new creation by Jesus work not theirs and thus will all obtain the inheritance at the end. I am sure we have some agreements and some disagreements here, but I think it is clear that we will not have to pay any debt of any sort when we die in Christ.

Col 1:24
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

It appears that At Paul felt that we had some stake in Christ’s suffering and that there is suffering that we must endure in us for the were “lacking in the afflictions of Christ”.
I know this does not directly relate to Purgatory, but I wanted you to see that, even though Jesus, “paid a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay”, does not necessarily relieve us of the need to “Repent and son no more” and then be prepared to accept the just punishment for falling back into sin after our repentance.

I realize that this will not convince you on the purgatory argument.

Peace
James

 

[zrs6v4]

Col 1:24
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

It appears that At Paul felt that we had some stake in Christ’s suffering and that there is suffering that we must endure in us for the were “lacking in the afflictions of Christ”.
I know this does not directly relate to Purgatory, but I wanted you to see that, even though Jesus, “paid a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay”, does not necessarily relieve us of the need to “Repent and son no more” and then be prepared to accept the just punishment for falling back into sin after our repentance.

I realize that this will not convince you on the purgatory argument.

Peace
James

Yea, I totally agree 100% that there will be much suffering that we go through for the sake of Christ and the Gospel. Suffering brings strength and is a necessary part of our sanctification. We are born under the sin of Adam and as God said, now there is a curse called “toil” due to our sinful beings. Solomon also wrote about this in Ecclesiastes. Although we are perfect in the sight of God by Christ’s payment and that is our ticket we are being made perfect through or endurance and transformation. This endurance lasts a lifetime and will be far far far far from complete until we die and enter the presence of God. In my opinion if I did hold that we would be made ready for heaven by purgatory, then every single soul would have to go through it because every single soul has uncountable sins every day that is quite unbearable and unintentional even. I could name thousands of sins and how far from perfection I come every day as hard as I may try not to. It is true that love covers a multitude of sins and that as John said, when we are Christians we will be practicing righteousness and not sinning although anyone who says they have no sin is a liar and the truth (God) is not in them. I do know that when we enter into Christ’s presence when we die that we will need to undergo a final transformation to be prepared for heaven. This is what the bible calls glorification and I see it to be immediate as it is reserved for us by Christ in the gift of salvation the second we have been justified/saved. This is seen in Romans 8:28. So yes we never stop sinning and repenting in this side of eternity, but by the Holy Spirit in us we sin less and less as we go and get to know Him. He rubs off on us so to speak, but to say we have obtained anything close to an equal holiness of Christ is a scary opinion and if we had to in the next life then it might take eternity of punishment to do it, which I call hell.

I really do respect the view or purgatory, because it is true that there will need to be that final defeat of our sin disease after we die. The issue is that it is us and our full nature and we cannot work it or pay it off in any way. So by grace we have and will be saved from it temporarily and in the future. To say that I may have to pay for any sins in purgatory might be hurtful due to a false sense of fear for torment in the future for sin. In Romans and Corinthians Paul talks about the Liberty/Freedom we now have to serve Christ willfully making it not a work to be accepted but an outcome from being under God’s great grace in which He lavished upon us. In Ephesians 2 it says we were saved for works. In other words, these works and this toil we do for God should not be related to torment or a must to keep our salvation, but be done with freedom, love, hope, faith, assurance, peace, and fullness of life. The works that will be burned in the fire are those in which we do not do in a true heart of worship pleasing to God. God hates sacrifice with no love or depth of a true heart. God does not want us to try to earn our way to Him or think we have to. I mean think about it, He paid everything and made that huge sacrifice of love for us so we could be back in fellowship with Him now and forever. When we work for some type of gain with God or whatever we are thinking its going to do, it will be burned up, and we will be transformed by fire.

When Jesus was talking with the Jewish leaders he said that they wouldn’t be forgiven in this age or the age to come. The context of this passage is talking about the unforgivable sin. This sin is when you not only fall in the category of unbelief, but also go to the next level and attribute the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ to the devil. He assures them that they will not be forgiven in this age= now until Christs return, and the age to come= after the return of Christ. They have reached a level of hardened hearts that is guarenteed to be irrevocable. Now simple unbelief is not irrevocable although some will die in this state and remain under the condemnation of God. In 1 John 5 I believe he talks about sins that will be forgiven and not forgiven also. We know that the sin in the state of unbelief in Christ is not forgiven, but when we are in the state of belief in Christ then obviously all of our mistakes and sins will be propitiated for and forgiven always and forever. So all sins in faith in Christ (which true faith according to James leads to works, and biblical faith = hating sin and rejecting self) will be forgiven, but all sin in unbelief must be paid for by yourself in eternity of hell. I cannot even begin to see paying for sins in any way when under God’s great love and mercy, truly.

 

[JRKH]

Yea, I totally agree 100% that there will be much suffering that we go through for the sake of Christ and the Gospel. Suffering brings strength and is a necessary part of our sanctification. We are born under the sin of Adam and as God said, now there is a curse called “toil” due to our sinful beings. Solomon also wrote about this in Ecclesiastes. Although we are perfect in the sight of God by Christ’s payment and that is our ticket we are being made perfect through or endurance and transformation. This endurance lasts a lifetime and will be far far far far from complete until we die and enter the presence of God. In my opinion if I did hold that we would be made ready for heaven by purgatory, then every single soul would have to go through it because every single soul has uncountable sins every day that is quite unbearable and unintentional even. I could name thousands of sins and how far from perfection I come every day as hard as I may try not to. It is true that love covers a multitude of sins and that as John said, when we are Christians we will be practicing righteousness and not sinning although anyone who says they have no sin is a liar and the truth (God) is not in them. I do know that when we enter into Christ’s presence when we die that we will need to undergo a final transformation to be prepared for heaven. This is what the bible calls glorification and I see it to be immediate as it is reserved for us by Christ in the gift of salvation the second we have been justified/saved. This is seen in Romans 8:28. So yes we never stop sinning and repenting in this side of eternity, but by the Holy Spirit in us we sin less and less as we go and get to know Him. He rubs off on us so to speak, but to say we have obtained anything close to an equal holiness of Christ is a scary opinion and if we had to in the next life then it might take eternity of punishment to do it, which I call hell.

I really do respect the view or purgatory, because it is true that there will need to be that final defeat of our sin disease after we die. The issue is that it is us and our full nature and we cannot work it or pay it off in any way. So by grace we have and will be saved from it temporarily and in the future. To say that I may have to pay for any sins in purgatory might be hurtful due to a false sense of fear for torment in the future for sin. In Romans and Corinthians Paul talks about the Liberty/Freedom we now have to serve Christ willfully making it not a work to be accepted but an outcome from being under God’s great grace in which He lavished upon us. In Ephesians 2 it says we were saved for works. In other words, these works and this toil we do for God should not be related to torment or a must to keep our salvation, but be done with freedom, love, hope, faith, assurance, peace, and fullness of life. The works that will be burned in the fire are those in which we do not do in a true heart of worship pleasing to God. God hates sacrifice with no love or depth of a true heart. God does not want us to try to earn our way to Him or think we have to. I mean think about it, He paid everything and made that huge sacrifice of love for us so we could be back in fellowship with Him now and forever. When we work for some type of gain with God or whatever we are thinking its going to do, it will be burned up, and we will be transformed by fire.

When Jesus was talking with the Jewish leaders he said that they wouldn’t be forgiven in this age or the age to come. The context of this passage is talking about the unforgivable sin. This sin is when you not only fall in the category of unbelief, but also go to the next level and attribute the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ to the devil. He assures them that they will not be forgiven in this age= now until Christs return, and the age to come= after the return of Christ. They have reached a level of hardened hearts that is guarenteed to be irrevocable. Now simple unbelief is not irrevocable although some will die in this state and remain under the condemnation of God. In 1 John 5 I believe he talks about sins that will be forgiven and not forgiven also. We know that the sin in the state of unbelief in Christ is not forgiven, but when we are in the state of belief in Christ then obviously all of our mistakes and sins will be propitiated for and forgiven always and forever. So all sins in faith in Christ (which true faith according to James leads to works, and biblical faith = hating sin and rejecting self) will be forgiven, but all sin in unbelief must be paid for by yourself in eternity of hell. I cannot even begin to see paying for sins in any way when under God’s great love and mercy, truly.

I see much in your post here that supports the underlying Catholic position on Purgatory. I think that we just struggle to reach a “meeting of the minds” due to minor differences in how we view the various aspects of Grace, Justification etc.
I highlighted the one scetion because it really encapsulates this idea that we see the same thing only differently.

Youe expressed a fear that Purgatory might cause a “False sense of fear and torment” while I fear that purgatory might cause someone to “not try hard enough” because “As long as I make it into purgatory…”. You see there are two possible problems. That narrow road can be tricky if we ar not careful.

One of the things that we Catholics fear in the OSAS type message (which I don’t read in your posts but bring up as example) is that it can give a false sense of Jesus did it ALL and we don’t have to “really” change.
That is why I like the explanation given by “St Catherine of Sienna” showing how each level works from perfected, to not perfect but working on it, to absolute rejection.

Anyway - It’s been a nice discussion.

Peace
James

 

[zrs6v4]

I see much in your post here that supports the underlying Catholic position on Purgatory. I think that we just struggle to reach a “meeting of the minds” due to minor differences in how we view the various aspects of Grace, Justification etc.

I agree, and I think your example below on OSAS is a good point ill address in a second. I do agree that we have many similarities in our views but also think these differences may be very important.

You expressed a fear that Purgatory might cause a “False sense of fear and torment” while I fear that purgatory might cause someone to “not try hard enough” because “As long as I make it into purgatory…”. You see there are two possible problems. That narrow road can be tricky if we ar not careful.

I agree and this is the case in many doctrines, they can be very easily misunderstood for a negative effect.

One of the things that we Catholics fear in the OSAS type message (which I don’t read in your posts but bring up as example) is that it can give a false sense of Jesus did it ALL and we don’t have to “really” change.
That is why I like the explanation given by “St Catherine of Sienna” showing how each level works from perfected, to not perfect but working on it, to absolute rejection.

Great example with Once Saved Always Saved. It was the example that came to my mind before I reached this part of your post. I agree many people even preachers tend to rest all of their sermons on this and it gets unbiblical. The bible clearly has warnings for not persevering and not “changing” or bearing fruit of repentance. I do hold this view of OSAS and it does play a major role in true saving faith vs not true faith. I believe when someone is truly elected by God to receive grace it is the foundation upon which someone will have true saving faith, works, and endurance out of the right heart. The essence of this saving faith and repentance come when we reach the end of our efforts in and of ourselves and literally give up in the hands of Christ upon realizing we have no chance. Grace- free gift of underserved mercy, therefore it cannot be worked for or kept by a human being but is preserved in heaven by God Himself. many times the bible seems to give us examples of the effects, positive and negative of this grace and faith. Very interesting

Anyway - It’s been a nice discussion.

Peace
James

yes I agree, and thank you for your time and help.

-Zach