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Tomster
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F.P.,
The state of grace and the state of sin are mutually exclusive. The state of grace is a state of friendship with God. The fellowship with God which grace confers, necessarily involves our union with God by love. If there be no love, there can be no fellowship: that is to say, grace is absent. On the other hand the state of sin is a state of enmity with God. By all grave sin the sinner rejects God’s service. The will turns itself away from Him to creatures. Where there is mortal sin, then there is the positive aversion of the will from God. Hence any mortal sin is sufficient to expel grace from the soul.
St. Paul treats at some length of the opposition between grace and sin in Romans 6, pointing out that the difference between them is that between servitude and liberty. Baptism, by which grace is bestowed, he reminds us, symbolizes death and resurrection. We pass fromk a lower life to a higher - from a state of servitude to sin to a state of incorporation into Christ and to share in his very life. But he warns us that those who, after having been thus freed, yield to temptation and commit mortal sin, inevitably fall back forthwith into the state of bondage and spiritual death from which they had been released: “Reckon that you are dead to sin, but alive unto God in Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof . . . know you not that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death or of obedience unto justice . . . for the wages of sin is death; but the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6: 11, 12, 16, 23
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Fr_Don_OPA
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I have a friend who says he had difficulty with the idea of original sin until he had children. St. Augustine of Hippo makes a similar observation. Fr Don OPA
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Ghosty
Guest
Grandfather wrote:
We, on the other hand, have a tendency towards sin. We have rational thought and free will as well, but it is weakened by the incessant pull of our disordered natures. Basically our unconcious “will” WANTS to sin, and we have a hard struggle against it; this doesn’t mean we aren’t responsible for our sins, just that it’s more work for us to not do them.
In other words, Adam and Eve’s sin was much graver than just about anything their offspring are capable of, since they had no propensity for it, no internal drive to sin, but chose to anyway. We are like recovering alcoholics who struggle against the temptation to drink, while they were fully healthy individuals who chose to drink themselves to death. It’s hard to imagine any sin graver than that of Adam and Eve and the angels who Fell.
Peace and God bless!
Tendency to sin is not the same as the ability to sin. Adam and Eve had free will, but were not overly inclined to sin. They chose to sin without any overwhelming internal impulse to do so. In other words their sin was utterly calculated and rational, even if they were externally misled a bit by Satan.
We, on the other hand, have a tendency towards sin. We have rational thought and free will as well, but it is weakened by the incessant pull of our disordered natures. Basically our unconcious “will” WANTS to sin, and we have a hard struggle against it; this doesn’t mean we aren’t responsible for our sins, just that it’s more work for us to not do them.
In other words, Adam and Eve’s sin was much graver than just about anything their offspring are capable of, since they had no propensity for it, no internal drive to sin, but chose to anyway. We are like recovering alcoholics who struggle against the temptation to drink, while they were fully healthy individuals who chose to drink themselves to death. It’s hard to imagine any sin graver than that of Adam and Eve and the angels who Fell.
Peace and God bless!
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Future_Prodigy
Guest
See here is where i don’t agree. I just dont forsee eating a forbidden fruit as being that bad. Angels who fell and rebelled against God is one thing… but then again i always get a chuckle out of the Gnostic joke about the fall of angels (how satan was asked why he rebelled and he told the guy to walk around in circles praying Allelluia, and after 30 mins he got tired of it and stoped, Satan then said that is why!)It’s hard to imagine any sin graver than that of Adam and Eve and the angels who Fell.
Like if any fatherly figure condemned all his future children for such a miniscule action as eating a fruit they were told not too, while being influenced by external factors in the final outcome, then theyd take all his kids away that person and put them into foster homes due to horrible parenting.
I just cant see the ‘fall’ being that bad. I cna visualize a seperation caused between us and God from cain’s actions but nothing about the adam/eve story sits with me
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WayneTalbot
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Part of the problem, I believe, is the Catholic notion of a scale of sin - mortal and venial as I recall. Scriptural support for this idea is lacking, and I am more inclined to the view that as God is the one offended by sin, only God can know the gravity. As God is an infinite being in every sense, I am inclined to believe that ALL sin, being an offence against God, is of equal gravity to God, though it may not be to us humans. Taken from the perspective that any and all sin separates us from God, and Paul’s epistle to the Romans is clear on the scope of law, it is not difficult to understand God’s response to Adam and Eve as recorded in Genesis.
It is not easy to see issues from God’s perspective other than as He has instructed us through Scripture - adding human laws and human interpretations invariably leads us to the type of conundrum referenced here.
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grandfather
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Jwlynas
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hehe…Made me think of an Eddie Izzard gig
At confessional
“Father, I have slept with someone not my wife”
“Heard it…Do something original”
“Father, I poke badgers with spoons”
“Oh my, that is original”
Ahem…Off topic, but had to be said.
At confessional
“Father, I have slept with someone not my wife”
“Heard it…Do something original”
“Father, I poke badgers with spoons”
“Oh my, that is original”
Ahem…Off topic, but had to be said.
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grandfather
Guest
British humor?
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WayneTalbot
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I apologise for my wording which led you to misunderstand me; when I used the word “inclined”, I was not simply preferring a personal reading or interpretation: rather, it was meant to convey that I saw one line of argument and scholarship as more reasonable than another. So I ask you to understand with good grace, invoking Paul’s epistle to Ephesians 4:32, “And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you”.
The issue of sin unto death raised in John’s epistle (1 John 5:14-19) has been the subject of debate by many scholars, academics, and theologians for centuries, and none of the treatise that I have read seem overly certain as to John’s meaning. Paul wrote of people dying because they took communion in an unworthy manner (1 Corinthians 11:27-30), Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead when they lied to God (Acts 5:1-11), blasphemy against the Holy Spirit results in spiritual death (Mark 3:29), and Hebrews 6:4-6 describes the spiritual death of the person who turns against Christ. So to the context of John’s epistle: a contemporary letter some 50 to 60 years after the death of Jesus Christ, some Christians were starting to doubt the truth, and heresies were becoming widespread. The subject discussed in the conclusion of this letter is “forgiveness”, and whom we should pray for. John focused on the spiritual aspects of Jesus life, more so than the other apostles or disciples, and if John wanted to make a point about the relative gravity of sin, it is suggested that he would have been more forthright in doing so, rather than leaving us with this rather oblique reference.
I accept that this passage might be taken as the basis for grading sin, but just what sin is mortal, unto death, is unclear. Based on the context of John’s letter, and related references in other parts of Scripture, many have concluded that the case for extrapolating John’s remarks into a theology of mortal and venial sin is not warranted. On balance, I agree with that view, thus I am “inclined” to believe as I do.
As to Jesus saying that “some sin is so evil as to be unforgivable”, this is found in Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:31-32. Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees and the sin relates specifically to rejection of the Holy Spirit. Again, it seems unwarranted to extrapolate this incident and teaching into a more general theology of mortal and venial sin.
My choice of the word “inclined” was obviously a poor one, but it was simply a manner of speech, and was not meant to suggest that I hold personal views independent of the scholarship of others. Quite the contrary, my views are formed from the study of varying points of view, attempting to understand each passage in Scripture in the context in which it was written, and in conjunction with other passages in Scripture on the same subject.
As to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, this is a subject close to my heart and one on which I pray continually. The question I regularly ask God is: “Dear Father, how is it that so many pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, yet still seem to get different answers?” I recently read a book that documented an exchange of telephone calls, discussions, and letters between a Catholic priest and an Evangelical minister. Both men, learned and devout, prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance and wisdom prior to each exchange, yet they continued to differ on significant points of theology. Are we to say that one was less honest with God, one was not listening closely to the Holy Spirit, or are we to understand that maybe they were asking the wrong questions, that the minutae of theology is man’s invention not God’s?
Titus 3:9 says “But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless”. Maybe making too much of any one point is what has driven man to start these many different church denominations, reading too much into Scripture, extrapolating theologies which are unnecessary and distracting, when really we simply need to emulate Paul when he said, “For I am determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1 Corinthians 2:2).
Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. (Ephesians 6:24)
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Pug
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There are Christians who are not Catholic that your comments do not represent. Other Christians (besides Catholic Christians) baptize infants. For example, the Orthodox baptize infants. In fact, they give them confirmation (chrismation) and communion (holy eucharist) as well.
Also, Catholics do think we have a propensity or inclination to sin. We have a name for it, even. Concupiscence. Catholics do not think that we each have an actual (personal) sin called original sin.
Infant baptism is not strictly a Catholic verses non-Catholic issue.
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grandfather
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WayneTalbot;2999496 said:
” (1 Corinthians 2:2).
Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. (Ephesians 6:24)
Logic says that if people pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit and they hold contradicting beliefs that the prayer did not work. The Holy Spirit will not mislead anyone. He leads into all truth. If people hold contradicting beliefs the Holy Spirit can not be leading them all. Yes we are to say He is not leading both. He can not be. He does not give “different answers”. He is either leading one or none. It has nothing to do with being honest with God, sincere or insincere. The method God ordains for us to be taught or come to know truth is not each man reading his Bible and praying to the Holy Spirit for a correct understanding. That is not scriptural. It does not work. It leads to constant divisions, which is historically demonstrated in the visible phenomenon of denominationalism. Christ commands unity of His followers. We are divided, disobedient. We certainly do not want to be involved in foolish disputes. We must long for unity and pray to God to give us unity of faith. The reason Christian civilization is being ravaged and destroyed is disunity. It is a house divided. The reason for so many fractures is the doctrine sola scriptura. If all authority is in scripture, there is none left for the Church. Scripture says Christ gave authority to men He appointed to teach His gospel to the nations. Unity will never be restored as long as Christians believe the Bible ordains teachers, and reject the teaching authority of the Church as described in scripture. Sincerity and honesty and being well meaning is good, but not the solution. A Protestant friend said the we (most denominations) agree on the big things, the important doctrines. That is good enough. If this is true then honest well intentioned believers let little unimportant differences divide them and be the cause of splitting the Church into fragments. I doubt when all these divisions happened the players thought they were over small change. There are always disputes. What happens when a dispute arises? The opposing sides argue their viewpoints from scripture. What happens when they fail to agree? They split. Luther complained that many people regaqrded themselves as authorities on scripture. Before his death the multiplication of divisions had begun. He and his doctrine caused this. This is not how disputes are to be handled. It is not scriptural, but the irony is that the dividing parties all claim scripture or their read of it is guiding them. Lord have mercy on us and restore unity of faith.
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Ghosty
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Eating the fruit is largely irrelevant; the command could just as easily been to not jump rope, or to not murder. The point is that it was the ONLY command given by God, and Adam and Eve simply had to not disobey. In eating the fruit they turned directly against God when it was entirely within their power not to. They had no internal drive compelling them to sin, they simply chose to.
In addition to that is the fact that all sinful acts were wrapped up in that one sin. They murdered, they set themselves up against God, they set themselves up as equals to God, they lied, they cheated, they were slothful, ect. It wasn’t merely “eating fruit”, but an action that involved all of the worst things humans can do. Not even genocide compares, because genocide kills only a group of people, whereas Adam and Eve put ALL humanity to death by their action, and they KNEW that was the consequence of their action beforehand.
Peace and God bless!
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grandfather
Guest
There is a little more to it. They were told if they disobeyed Godand distrusted God’s motive in giving them a commandment they would be like Gods. They learned about good and evil, lost innocense. A little child is innocent, because he only knows good. When he learns of evil by seeing it innocense is lost. What must we do to be saved? The opposite of what our first parents did to be lost. We must believe God and trust Him and obey Him. Obedience is the same thing as love. St. John writes, the love of God consists in this, that we keep His commands."
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